Potential boat buy

[Orphiel]

Hallo all people

 

I have been lurking around reading threads for a while, so hopefully will not ask anything that is already easy to find out on the forum. I am also a dedicated user of Google, but the non-interactivity poses a bit of a problem when asking it complex questions about narrowboats

 

So I am planning to get a boat to liveabord on. I have done research for the past few years, and even (fingers crossed) found a residential mooring where I actually want to live. I am now moving on to the scary part of actually finding a boat to live on. I am currently looking at a particular boat at Sawley marina, which is 65 ft long (maybe a bit large for just me and the cats, but hey, do not complain about advantages), trad stern, and looks prett stable. I am seeing it again this weekend to do more thorough checks and tests that we weren't able to do last time because of flood warnings and timing. However, I wanted to pick some brains first of all.

 

- Firstly, it has a Dorman 3 cylinder engine, has anyone ever heard of this? From the look of it (huge huge and with all those twiddly railing bits) it is a vintage engine. I think you can tell from the term 'twiddly bits' that I am not too experienced with engines. I do not even drive a car. Planning on doing the RYA diesel engine course, but wondered if anyone can tell me anything about the Dorman. Boat is from 1930 if that helps any, unknown builder.

 

- It has no fridge. Obviously this means I can't put a gas one in, so it'll have to be electric. As I will not be able to get a mooring with electric hook-up, it's going to be tricky trying to run a fridge on battery power, right? Tricky as in, will run all my batteries into the ground and I will be stuck and stupid. Is there any way I can hook up some extra power, e.g . wind or solar, which I am planning to get installed anyway, straight to the fridge, or is that bonkers?

 

- In a related power question, how easy/good are generators as main power source?

 

Finally, as I've got ages this weekend to look around and ask loads of thing, what should I be asking? For any help, here is the website of the broker, and I've got some pictures of the inside on my flickr website here: (only up to the 2 pictures of the engine, then they are other boats, for ideas and interior design, heh).

 

Boat all steel, recently re-bottomed, and I am worried that there will be some hidden catch because the price is pretty low!

 

Sawley marina site - http://www.bwml.co.uk/boatdetail.php?boatid=561

Boat pictures inside - http://www.flickr.com/photos/74619946@N00/

 

Boat has water, electricity and heating systems installed, needs some doing up but mainly woodwork and cosmetic stuff, which is all I'm confident doing.

 

Sorry for my first post to be such a begging for you all to do work for me, I will be better in the future, and pay you back with other advice, as I work for the CAB!

 

Thanks,

 

Meg

[alan_fincher]

Hello Meg,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Firstly, let me say that from the one rather poor external picture on the BWML site it's hard to tell too much about the boat.

 

However......

 

The style of riveted bow I can see there, coupled with the broad ribbed rubbing plates under the bows make me think of boat is a lot older than 1930s build. (How can they say it was built then, but not know by WHO, I wonder )

 

It's almost certainly originally some kind of day boat built for use on the Birmingham Canal Navigations, and if so, would have been an unpowered boat originally.

 

I used to own a boat that had a very similar bow to this, and although I never substantiated the claim, mine was supposed to have been built circa 1898. I've since seen very similar boats where the build date has tended to be quoted in the 1900 to 1910 period.

 

I'm no expert on BCN boats, but am pretty confident this is one., (though I concede it may be a later build).

 

Mine was built with 5/16" wrought iron sides, (good as wrought iron has better longevity than modern steels). It was originally a "composite" boat, meaning it originally had a thick wooden bottom below it's wrought iron sides. This was a fairly common construction, and others I've seen have tended to be the same. In our case the wood bottom had been replaced in a modern steel when the boat was converted for pleasure use. That may well be the case here.

 

If I'm right, this boat would not originally have had a counter stern suitable for motorised use, but would have had a "pointy" back with a hang on wooden rudder, in a butty like style. So the conversion to a motor, and the engine itself, will all be modifications to the original boat, (as of course will be a reduction in length down from a little over 70 feet to 65 feet).

 

It's impossible to say anything about the condition of a boat that could be over 100 years old, with out a full survey, and I'd say you need a surveyor with specific experience of older boats.

 

This boat, and it's engine, smack to me of what I'd call an "enthusiasts" boat. I can see you are enthusiastic, but I hope you'll not be offended if I suggest that there is a possibility that you could end up taking on a lot more than you might think at the outset. In particular old engines are lovely, and well restored and maintained ones will go on for ever. But restoring one can cost a fortune, so if you end up with one that's not in good shape initially, it could get very expensive to sort out.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean this to sound quite as negative as it's turned out This may be a good buy, but is going to need more careful research than many, if it's what I think it is....

 

Of course, if you can post some better external pictures, after you have seen it, I may end up deciding it's NOT what I think it is, after all

 

Alan

[magnetman]

I suspect this could be a later model Bantock mid 1920s but I'm not sure.

Does seem a bit odd that they don't know the builder but claim a date.

 

I don't know that much but I know of a similar boat which is claimed to be mid 20's and a Bantock.

 

The price looks alright if the rebottoming was done well and thick and the engine is in ok order.

 

edited

Edited February 2, 2007 by magnetman

[carlt]

I suspect this could be a later model Bantock mid 1920s but I'm not sure. The front of the earlier one's (my mum has one) were much more ornate with 3 inch D strakes rather than the wide flat bands and they were the ones built with the last plank down the side wood and a wood base. the knees can still be seen sticking out where the last planks went.

Does seem odd they don't know the builder but claim a date.

 

I don't know that much but I know of a similar boat which is claimed to be mid 20's and a Bantock.

 

The price looks alright if the rebottoming was done well and thick

 

I was thinking Bantock too, but like alan says, it's a bad picture. The Dorman is lovely old lump, throbs away at bugger all rpm and is a bit different from your JP's etc. Most of them were used in cranes in the 60's. It might be an enthusiasts engine but if you're d.i.ying they're a lot easier than the modern ones to maintain (and pretty indestructible, when the world ends the only survivors will be cockroaches, keeping warm next to their lister/dorman/ armstrong gennies).

[NB Willawaw]

As somebody said earlier, this is an enthusiasts boat. Is this what you really want in a boat ??

Not wishing to pour cold water on your enthusiasm, living on a boat all year round can be quite hard.

Home comforts become very important. If you have no shore power, you are going to need to fit a generator

to charge the batteries or run the specialist Dorman engine every day. You can't rely on panels or a windgen

to run an electric fridge - they will ony contribute to lessen the drain on your batteries.

 

You might like to read Carries blog on her boat Blackbird to give you an idea of the problems she faced.

 

My advice for a number of reasons would be to look at a smaller, newer, more conventional steel boat

with a modern Japanese diesel engine.

[alan_fincher]

I suspect this could be a later model Bantock mid 1920s but I'm not sure.

Does seem a bit odd that they don't know the builder but claim a date.

 

I don't know that much but I know of a similar boat which is claimed to be mid 20's and a Bantock.

 

The price looks alright if the rebottoming was done well and thick and the engine is in ok order.

 

edited

OK,

 

I'll bow to what I suspect is both your greater knowledge, and (almost certainly!), better eyesight.

 

I hadn't even heard the name "Bantock" when I owned by old BCN boat. I only knew of it's relatively more recent life at the Stewarts and LLoyds (spelling ?) tubeworks at Coombeswood.

 

However, having recently seen info about Bantock boats, I think it's what it was. Particularly as it now appears in the "Jim Shead" boats list as built by Bantocks. (It seems to still exist, so at well over 100 years old, they can't be all bad!....)

 

 

One other thought, I forgot to post....

 

The lates BSC regulations no longer prohibit fitting a gas fridge to a boat not already having one.

 

Whether you want to is a different matter, but you can, if you are happy to live with one.

 

Alan

[Orphiel]

Firstly, let me say that from the one rather poor external picture on the BWML site it's hard to tell too much about the boat.

 

Thanks very much for the welcome

 

Yers, foolishly I did not take any other pictures of the outside, which was rubbish of me.

 

This boat, and it's engine, smack to me of what I'd call an "enthusiasts" boat. I can see you are enthusiastic, but I hope you'll not be offended if I suggest that there is a possibility that you could end up taking on a lot more than you might think at the outset.

 

Am not offended at all, as that's what I was worried about in the first place. I readily concede that I have enthusiam but very little experience, and definitely don't want to take on something that's going to be really hard to do!

I was planning to get a survey, if I was going to buy it, and now that you've mentioned it will have a look around for one with experience of older boats.

Call me dim, but I also didn't think about the bizarity of knowing the age but not the builder. I will definitely keep both your suggestions re: possible age, structure and builder in mind. I will get some more pictures tomorrow if I'm still thinking about it. Will also hopefully get the chance to examine the hull and outside in more detail.

 

To be honest, I was also originally loath to get a boat bigger than 57, or at the most 60ft, as I will be living in Nottingham, and the Leeds and Liverpool would be real close, but this one looked like a suspiciously good deal.

 

Have heard from another boat owner that most boats tend to come out for sale around March, so might be best to wait until then to look about further, is this something people have experienced, or some sort of rumour to make me buy his boat quicker?

Disadvantage then is that I'd have to find some temp. accommodation up in Nottingham for a job starting in March, but I reckon that's better than buying a boat that sinks or doesn't work...

 

Thanks for all help,

 

Meg

[Orphiel]

Heh, you all posted while I was typing that so now I have more to reply to.

 

carlt, glad to know that someone has heard of a Dorman engine, I was starting to think it was some kind of homemade one-off...

 

NB Willawaw, I am still looking for a slightly smaller and more modern boat, but I think my price range might be a bit low to get me much more modern, with my pickiness in terms of size. I do not really want below a 50ft at the absolute minimum, 57ft would be ideal, as I have too many cats* and shoes to be comfortable in anything too small.

Could you give me a link to Carrie's blog? I have tried to find it on the forum but can't locate it on search, maybe I am being a bit thick.

On the plus side, the boat does already have a generator so it's a definite possibility. Maybe that together with some renewable power would be good?

Although now Alan has told me that gas fridges are allowed again, I could think about that too. Aces. More research, here I come.

 

Will have a look at Bantock as well.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Meg

 

 

*Well, only 2, but 1 is proper mental.

[NB Willawaw]

Click on Blogs on the top of the page (the light blue bar that says BLOGS - GALLERY- CALENDAR etc).

 

Could you give me a link to Carrie's blog? I have tried to find it on the forum but can't locate it on search,

[Orphiel]

Click on Blogs on the top of the page (the light blue bar that says BLOGS - GALLERY- CALENDAR etc).

 

D'oh, indeed I am thick. Cheers.

[Trev]

Hallo all people

 

I have been lurking around reading threads for a while, so hopefully will not ask anything that is already easy to find out on the forum. I am also a dedicated user of Google, but the non-interactivity poses a bit of a problem when asking it complex questions about narrowboats

 

So I am planning to get a boat to liveabord on. I have done research for the past few years, and even (fingers crossed) found a residential mooring where I actually want to live. I am now moving on to the scary part of actually finding a boat to live on. I am currently looking at a particular boat at Sawley marina, which is 65 ft long (maybe a bit large for just me and the cats, but hey, do not complain about advantages), trad stern, and looks prett stable. I am seeing it again this weekend to do more thorough checks and tests that we weren't able to do last time because of flood warnings and timing. However, I wanted to pick some brains first of all.

 

- Firstly, it has a Dorman 3 cylinder engine, has anyone ever heard of this? From the look of it (huge huge and with all those twiddly railing bits) it is a vintage engine. I think you can tell from the term 'twiddly bits' that I am not too experienced with engines. I do not even drive a car. Planning on doing the RYA diesel engine course, but wondered if anyone can tell me anything about the Dorman. Boat is from 1930 if that helps any, unknown builder.

 

- It has no fridge. Obviously this means I can't put a gas one in, so it'll have to be electric. As I will not be able to get a mooring with electric hook-up, it's going to be tricky trying to run a fridge on battery power, right? Tricky as in, will run all my batteries into the ground and I will be stuck and stupid. Is there any way I can hook up some extra power, e.g . wind or solar, which I am planning to get installed anyway, straight to the fridge, or is that bonkers?

 

- In a related power question, how easy/good are generators as main power source?

 

Finally, as I've got ages this weekend to look around and ask loads of thing, what should I be asking? For any help, here is the website of the broker, and I've got some pictures of the inside on my flickr website here: (only up to the 2 pictures of the engine, then they are other boats, for ideas and interior design, heh).

 

Boat all steel, recently re-bottomed, and I am worried that there will be some hidden catch because the price is pretty low!

 

Sawley marina site - http://www.bwml.co.uk/boatdetail.php?boatid=561

Boat pictures inside - http://www.flickr.com/photos/74619946@N00/

 

Boat has water, electricity and heating systems installed, needs some doing up but mainly woodwork and cosmetic stuff, which is all I'm confident doing.

 

Sorry for my first post to be such a begging for you all to do work for me, I will be better in the future, and pay you back with other advice, as I work for the CAB!

 

Thanks,

 

Meg

 

Hi Meg,

 

I was at Sawley last weekend also looking at boats though i dont think i looked at the one you are currently considering. I am unable to offer any 'advice' re your potential buy but was wondering if you felt as i did that the boats that they had for sale were generally speaking in a poor state of upkeep. We ventured into three different boats all of which had suffered from serious condensation resulting in pools of water on the floors. I was disappointed that some of the boats they had advertised had not had the basics done such as general upkeep and maintainence. Would it be too much to ask for them to be checked before potential buyers were allowed on board? Did you finf the same?

Edited February 6, 2007 by Keeping Up
Duplicated text removed for clarity

[Orphiel]

Hi Trev

 

I did actually go and look at another boat there where the decks were swimming with water, and they didn't seem too fazed by me pointing this out at reception. Also looked at one that actually stank of damp and condensation inside, which I would have thought would put potential buyers off. I reckon they need a House Doctor.

[StoneHenge]

When we were looking for a boat (to live on) we looked at a boat which was quite old (although not as old as the one you are looking at). It was charming, and traditional and all the things that a real enthusiast would love (tinkering with engines etc). However, when we had the survey done, although it passed with flying colours, potential future problems were pointed out to us such as the hull, which although was a decent thickness (it was a 10/6/4 steel fit), it had started showing signs of pitting, which is not unusual, as long as they are dead pits, so no longer active.

 

The engine was much older than the 3 years the sellars professed it to be, and we didn't want to get a year in to living on it, and have the engine conk out beyonf repair and end up shelling out £8,000 plus on a new one.

 

The insides of the boat were fine, but there were potential problems that could have interferred with our comforts, which would have meant major modification.

 

All little things we thought were going to happen. Probably not straight away, but it's like getting a second hand boat, the owners could well have had no problems at all, then things start going wrong (like cars!). So we in the end opted for something much newer (obviously your budget may not stretch).

 

We made sure it was all good, and so far it has been and we so no major problems coming up, apart from the routine stuff like blacking of the hull, yearly engine service etc etc.

 

You have to think, how much money to have I have spend to buy it, and how much money do I then need to keep it maintained. We set aside a monthly budget, so we have a service allowance, blacking allowance, canal rescue allowance, licencse etc, and then when these things come up, we have already saved for them, but there are always going to be little things, and it's not as cheap as some think, so it's worth working out what you will reaslistically have to spend after your mooring fees etc.

 

We found out pretty quickly, we were simply not allowing enough for things like winter fuel, so really dig into what you will need to live on it with and your home comforts become even more important when you are in a restricted space and need to save space and make good use of space wherever possible.

 

We have managed it with two children, and a 62" boat, so if it's just you and the pussy cats, I'd be tempted to look for something smaller, especially as it will probably be easier for single handling anyway, and it means you are not restricted with lock sizes.

 

Just me thinking out loud. This lot have good advice on here.

[carlt]

Hi Trev

 

I did actually go and look at another boat there where the decks were swimming with water, and they didn't seem too fazed by me pointing this out at reception. Also looked at one that actually stank of damp and condensation inside, which I would have thought would put potential buyers off. I reckon they need a House Doctor.

This is something that can take thousnds off a boat but cost hundreds to put right. I love the musty smell of damp when I'm about to haggle.

[Orphiel]

This is something that can take thousnds off a boat but cost hundreds to put right. I love the musty smell of damp when I'm about to haggle.

 

Ha, yes. I'd feel confident doing it with flats, less so with boats. Like the awful decor scheme on anything that makes people go 'erg' but is easily rectified with some white paint.

 

StoneHenge, that's sort of what I am going through at the moment, rapidly re-assessing what I actually thought I wanted from what I really need, or don't want! I was already a bit unsure about whether I wanted to go over 57 or 60ft to limit myself out of canal systems anyway. Also, now that I've had a look at more boats it's not so much the length that makes anything feel cramped as it is not being set out properly for a liveabord, and smaller is sounding better and better to me. Still not really prepared for under 50ft, though, as I have a lot of shoes... 2 kids on 62ft, you must be extremely organised

 

As for budget for buying, what it is looking like coming down to is relatively modern and about 50ft long, all steel, pretty well fitted out, and slightly more expensive end of budget (30,000 and under, in case anyone has any excellent suggestions) as opposed to longer (57 or 60ft) with:

- either wooden or GRP top,

- or some actual problems, like one I enquired about with only a 12v system installed, and only 1 domestic battery, so needing things to be done that I wouldn't know how to do.

 

I reckon I could do a smaller one, to be honest. Am doing some more research on wooden or GRP, and may think about this if theu are otherwise excellent.

 

I already set a lot of money aside for bills every month, and have done a lot of sums as per budgeting for maintenance etc. I am about to start a job as a senior debt adviser, so I would be a pretty poor bet should I not be able to sort this bit out! It might be the only bit I feel confident about sorting out, however.

 

I was also told again today that a lot of boats went before the winter for winter fit outs, and many more boats tend to be on sale after winter. Is it worth waiting, in anyone's experience?

 

Thanks,

 

Meg

[BlueStringPudding]

Hello,

 

Kev and I looked at Nb "Pearl" a few weeks ago - we thought it was a lovely boat. It does indeed need a fair bit of work doing to it - mainly to the woodwork inside but there was something about the boat that had real character. (Probably the sheer age!) Kev was particularly smitten!

 

We decided it'd be too much work for our limited talents but someone will bring out the best in her, I'm sure.