Switching Ownership

[FORTUNATA]

Today I happened to meet a relative of the guy whose boat I bought one year ago and have been working on since. I have this uneasy feeling as well.

What happened in this case was the former boat owner died at aged 70 and it was his son who sold me the boat I now have. Basically the son wanted rid of it sharpish (the boat) as it had been written off as a virtual hunk of scrap and he didn't want to pay BW any more ongoing fees.

However, I 've now come to see there are other family members and people who may not see eye to eye over the whole situation. In fact, the brother of the former boat owner who passed away let it slip he thought this boat should be returned to another former owner because that particular individual had passed the boat on as a gift.

So, I'm saying it looks as if my ownership of this boat could run into sticky waters (pardon the pun) seeing as it's no longer a hunk of scrap and is beginning to look like a more valuable asset.

Specifically, my difficulty could lie in a heap of legal jargon as to whether the son of the deceased former owner had the right to sell a boat that was gifted to the deceased person.

In other words, I've heard some talk that the guy who gifted the craft may possibly expect it back now the former owner is no longer living.

At any rate, all I can conclude is I think I really ought to change my mooring and wonder how easy this will be to do or whether maybe even BW can assist. I think that if some other family member or former boatowner dropped by, unhitched the boat and towed it off I could have a lengthy, ongoing legal dispute on hand. Such things do happen believe it or not.

I think common sense dictates life could be far less complicated if I change the mooring. Any ideas?

P.S. The contract of sale was verbal. I do have the documents and papers pertaining to the craft and I did license it in my own name so possibly this has legal implications in my favour as the new owner?

[Barry]

Today I happened to meet a relative of the guy whose boat I bought one year ago and have been working on since. I have this uneasy feeling as well.

What happened in this case was the former boat owner died at aged 70 and it was his son who sold me the boat I now have. Basically the son wanted rid of it sharpish (the boat) as it had been written off as a virtual hunk of scrap and he didn't want to pay BW any more ongoing fees.

However, I 've now come to see there are other family members and people who may not see eye to eye over the whole situation. In fact, the brother of the former boat owner who passed away let it slip he thought this boat should be returned to another former owner because that particular individual had passed the boat on as a gift.

So, I'm saying it looks as if my ownership of this boat could run into sticky waters (pardon the pun) seeing as it's no longer a hunk of scrap and is beginning to look like a more valuable asset.

Specifically, my difficulty could lie in a heap of legal jargon as to whether the son of the deceased former owner had the right to sell a boat that was gifted to the deceased person.

In other words, I've heard some talk that the guy who gifted the craft may possibly expect it back now the former owner is no longer living.

At any rate, all I can conclude is I think I really ought to change my mooring and wonder how easy this will be to do or whether maybe even BW can assist. I think that if some other family member or former boatowner dropped by, unhitched the boat and towed it off I could have a lengthy, ongoing legal dispute on hand. Such things do happen believe it or not.

I think common sense dictates life could be far less complicated if I change the mooring. Any ideas?

P.S. The contract of sale was verbal. I do have the documents and papers pertaining to the craft and I did license it in my own name so possibly this has legal implications in my favour as the new owner?

 

I reckon you should follow your instincts and get well away - unless they know where you live

[fuzzyduck]

a gift?

 

assuming the boat was left to the son, then he's got no chance of getting it back.

 

But might be worth moving the boat before you make it look really special.

 

Edited to say, did you get a receipt?

Edited January 29, 2007 by fuzzyduck

[Guest]

Today I happened to meet a relative of the guy whose boat I bought one year ago and have been working on since. I have this uneasy feeling as well.

What happened in this case was the former boat owner died at aged 70 and it was his son who sold me the boat I now have. Basically the son wanted rid of it sharpish (the boat) as it had been written off as a virtual hunk of scrap and he didn't want to pay BW any more ongoing fees.

However, I 've now come to see there are other family members and people who may not see eye to eye over the whole situation. In fact, the brother of the former boat owner who passed away let it slip he thought this boat should be returned to another former owner because that particular individual had passed the boat on as a gift.

So, I'm saying it looks as if my ownership of this boat could run into sticky waters (pardon the pun) seeing as it's no longer a hunk of scrap and is beginning to look like a more valuable asset.

Specifically, my difficulty could lie in a heap of legal jargon as to whether the son of the deceased former owner had the right to sell a boat that was gifted to the deceased person.

In other words, I've heard some talk that the guy who gifted the craft may possibly expect it back now the former owner is no longer living.

At any rate, all I can conclude is I think I really ought to change my mooring and wonder how easy this will be to do or whether maybe even BW can assist. I think that if some other family member or former boatowner dropped by, unhitched the boat and towed it off I could have a lengthy, ongoing legal dispute on hand. Such things do happen believe it or not.

I think common sense dictates life could be far less complicated if I change the mooring. Any ideas?

P.S. The contract of sale was verbal. I do have the documents and papers pertaining to the craft and I did license it in my own name so possibly this has legal implications in my favour as the new owner?

Large lock and chain, plus don't forget the witness you had present at the time of the sale, if you get my meaning. Then of course there is the matter of the several hundred or even thousands of pounds that you have spent on the boat to date, your labour etc. Write it all down in an orderly fashion and keep it to hand. Should the worst happen you will be entitled to reimbursement I would hope.

[carlt]

And have your free sit down with a solicitor, or at least citizens advice! And if you haven't already done so: keep every receipt, log your time spent working on the boat (so if you do look like losing it you can bung them a hefty bill). But if the chap left no will then son trumps brother surely? Best of luck anyway.

[FORTUNATA]

I decided it would be common sense to save myself a whole lot of rigmarole and change the mooring. I figure if I've been paying the license, mooring and now the Safety Certificate legal ownership is fairly strong. Even so, complications sometimes arise.

Of course, nobody is going to chase up a boat that's been relocated but I think the former (penultimate) owner who gifted the craft (probably intending it to be specifically a gift to one individual) may not see it the same way if he sees it's now worth a lot more.

Besides, my mooring is too far away and now unstable due to the rain. It costs about 300 pounds a year so I wonder how that compares with other moorings.

Dare I ask how much you guys pay roughly?

[bottle]

This is a minefield, Fortunata as has been said get yourself to Citizens advice pronto.

 

In this case I think it would be good, if only absolutely correct advice is given.

 

No, I think this or I think that.

 

Good luck, hope you get to keep the boat.

[Alec Gatherer]

About £1200 per annum for 57ft bankside mooring near boatyard on T & M. No facilities except a real nice landlord. And three good alehouses.

Re. the original problem, I'm not as worried about it as you seem to be.

Reasons-

1. Not my boat

2. If facts are exactly as you report them, no-one has a claim on the boat except you. A disposed-of intestate estate that has followed the rules cannot be challenged save by a lengthy legal process which would cost everyone involved in prosecuting the spurious claim much more than the value of the disposed asset, which would be very little if it were a pile of scrap as you say.

Prudent course of action - assemble evidence, in particular photographs taken in its handed-over state and witness list of persons willing to vouch for your version of events.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Alec Gatherer

[FORTUNATA]

It's a lot more than I pay. My boat and mooring came pretty cheap. The truth is nobody wanted the boat and all previous owners (to my knowledge) made a botch up job of doing anything with it. Someone painted her up with regular paint in rainy conditions and the whole lot flaked off. It took me 4 months to scrape the lot off before I filled in the body-work and painted in proper marine paint. It didn't cost so much money but it did cost a lot of sweat and hard work.

I feel convinced when I'm done my boat will be worth a few grand. I'm convinced I got a bargain although, yes, I regret the death of the former owner and accept it was a tragedy behind events that made me the current owner.

 

About £1200 per annum for 57ft bankside mooring near boatyard on T & M. No facilities except a real nice landlord. And three good alehouses.

Re. the original problem, I'm not as worried about it as you seem to be.

Reasons-

1. Not my boat

2. If facts are exactly as you report them, no-one has a claim on the boat except you. A disposed-of intestate estate that has followed the rules cannot be challenged save by a lengthy legal process which would cost everyone involved in prosecuting the spurious claim much more than the value of the disposed asset, which would be very little if it were a pile of scrap as you say.

Prudent course of action - assemble evidence, in particular photographs taken in its handed-over state and witness list of persons willing to vouch for your version of events.

[NB Phoenix]

For what it’s worth and from limited experience from dealing with my mother’s death two years ago, it’s not as confusing as it first looks. A gift is just that(with some exceptions). You give title to ownership away so at that stage the owner of the boat is the deceased gent. Once he passed away the boat becomes part of the estate. The estate then has to be distributed according to the deceased wishes i.e. his will. If there was no will the estate is split between surviving relatives, once the funeral director and tax man have been paid. Starting with spouse, the children and then parents and siblings. After that it seems to be a bit of a free for all for the rest of the family. If the son you refer to is the eldest surviving child and there is no spouse and HE has obtained probate he has control over the estate.

 

I would not worry too much about the previous owner who gave the boat away, but there may be concern if the boat is mentioned in a will or the son has not got probate.

 

As I say the above is only based on my own past experience and from advice I received from the probate officers. I hope it helps but you own judgment must be followed. Good luck.

Edited January 29, 2007 by NB Phoenix

[WJM]

I think the law will be totally against you - even if you had documented the sale (which you have not) the boat may not have been his to sell. If that were the case they will be entirely within their legal rights to take the boat back.

 

Glad to see you are not being a foolish 'Canute' and raging about the unfairness of the law - just move the boat away and then the whole thing will probably just fade away.

[chris w]

I think the law will be totally against you - even if you had documented the sale (which you have not) the boat may not have been his to sell. If that were the case they will be entirely within their legal rights to take the boat back.

 

Glad to see you are not being a foolish 'Canute' and raging about the unfairness of the law - just move the boat away and then the whole thing will probably just fade away.

 

I agree with WJM. If the son did not have title to the boat it is not his to sell and the executors of the estate will be entitled to take the boat back. The Law does not deal in "fair" or "unfair" only the facts.

 

Further, as NB Phoenix mentioned above, the boat was gifted to the deceased and therefore title passed to the deceased and you would not have to worry about the previous owner. Even if there was an agreement at the time that the boat would pass back to the first guy on the death of the person receiving the gift, this would be subordinate to the will of the deceased. It sounds like the son saw a way of making a "quick buck" without regard to the Law.

 

Chris

[carlt]

I agree with WJM. If the son did not have title to the boat it is not his to sell and the executors of the estate will be entitled to take the boat back. The Law does not deal in "fair" or "unfair" only the facts.

 

Further, as NB Phoenix mentioned above, the boat was gifted to the deceased and therefore title passed to the deceased and you would not have to worry about the previous owner. Even if there was an agreement at the time that the boat would pass back to the first guy on the death of the person receiving the gift, this would be subordinate to the will of the deceased. It sounds like the son saw a way of making a "quick buck" without regard to the Law.

 

Chris

 

Like I said, SEE A LAWYER. It's all ifs and buts and we don't know. Having lost a £170,000 house for £23,000 (kept the boat though ) all because I trusted someone instead of speaking to a solicitor. that's the only advice worth giving. When I finally did see a solicitor and he told me what an idiot I'd been he said 'one good thing, at least this advice is free'

[FORTUNATA]

I always figured that the secret to a stress-free life is to do what the Stoics used to do - control those things you can control and try to keep calm when you're bothered by other situations you can't control.

You often hear stories about folks who, say, buy a house in Spain for 100.000 pounds and then find out the sale wasn't bona fide.

One of the boats that passed to me for ownership has now been sold twice to other ownders and will be virtually impossible to trace. The one I currently own was simply written off as "clapped out" by the family and former owners. It was abandoned for some years.'

Yesterday (with some help from BW) I traced the last surveyor who conducted the boats safety certificate and, yes, he remembers it vaguely. I told him the condition I found it in and what I'd done so far. He was all in favour of what I'm currently doing and I figure he'll be sympathetic - it needs a new survey.

Still, there is obviously no way I'm prepared to do all this work if, at a later stage, someone else decides to disagree with the original sale. It bugged me that the former owner's brother (who died) mentioned something about the owner before that having some kind of claim as the person he gifted it to is no longer living.

I suspect there may be people around who would maybe have a change of heart and challenge the son's right to sell this craft in the first place.

That's why I think it would be very sensible to change the mooring as there is really no way anybody would want something back if they assume it's still in a neglected, miserable condition. Neither would they find it or recognise it for that matter.

Soooo, given moorings are crowded and costly these days, how would you go about getting a relatively inexpensive replacement?

 

 

I think the law will be totally against you - even if you had documented the sale (which you have not) the boat may not have been his to sell. If that were the case they will be entirely within their legal rights to take the boat back.

 

Glad to see you are not being a foolish 'Canute' and raging about the unfairness of the law - just move the boat away and then the whole thing will probably just fade away.

[nichimyo]

For what it’s worth and from limited experience from dealing with my mother’s death two years ago, it’s not as confusing as it first looks. A gift is just that(with some exceptions). You give title to ownership away so at that stage the owner of the boat is the deceased gent. Once he passed away the boat becomes part of the estate. The estate then has to be distributed according to the deceased wishes i.e. his will. If there was no will the estate is split between surviving relatives, once the funeral director and tax man have been paid. Starting with spouse, the children and then parents and siblings. After that it seems to be a bit of a free for all for the rest of the family. If the son you refer to is the eldest surviving child and there is no spouse and HE has obtained probate he has control over the estate.

 

I would not worry too much about the previous owner who gave the boat away, but there may be concern if the boat is mentioned in a will or the son has not got probate.

 

As I say the above is only based on my own past experience and from advice I received from the probate officers. I hope it helps but you own judgment must be followed. Good luck.

 

I agree. You can't take a gift back, you gave it away and it's not yours any more.

The only question is who had the right to dispose of this item from the dead man's estate? Without evidence from the will or probate, it won't be clear but it seems reasonable to think that the son would have had a right to sell it.

[miles beyond]

Unfortunately only the executors of the estate can dispose of the deceased's assets. Any receipts you have from the son are are meaningless as he had no legal right to sell it to you - he was not the owner.

 

If you try to hide the boat you will in effect be guilty of theft and weaken your position further. You must take legal advice urgently.

[FORTUNATA]

I think the situation is, nobody wanted the boat in its former condition. The fact it was a gift, however, is confusing.

No doubt when the boat-owner passed away, his son wanted to get shot of it pronto. There were fees due for mooring and licenses and other items of red tape.

At the time I knew nothing at all about canal boats but was talked into taking on two boats. One of these I sold and the other I kept.

I haven't the foggiest idea whether the son had asked the person who gifted the boat in the first place to take it back before I was urged to get involved.

One thing I do know is if the sale isn't in order, I'd want paying for my restoration work to date as well as back pay for license, safety and mooring. This runs into a lot of money, tools, fibreglass substances, engine parts and electronics as well as mechanics fees earlier on.

I was given all the papers by the son on the day of sale but I agree there's a risk someone may want it back when it's restored and this is something I need to address.

Personally I'm 99 per cent certain the issue will never be raised so long as people don't know what it looks like now - a heck of a lot better than last year.

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately only the executors of the estate can dispose of the deceased's assets. Any receipts you have from the son are are meaningless as he had no legal right to sell it to you - he was not the owner.

 

If you try to hide the boat you will in effect be guilty of theft and weaken your position further. You must take legal advice urgently.

[FORTUNATA]

I wonder how things would stand if the gifter stated this boat was a gift to one individual - a personal present? Now the giftee, as it were, has passed away. So, did this entitle the son to be the new owner?

Apparently it didn't entitle me to the mooring I now have. The landowner hit the roof when she discovered the son had not consulted her and told me in no uncertain terms that moorings are not passed on just like that. Fortunately, now she knows me, it's all O.K. with her and we get on alright.

You can see many angles and perspectives here. From the son's point of view, he just wanted rid and sharpish. This is common with boats these days. Not many people would be willing to take resposibility for a boat with all the red-tape, costs, commitments and hassles that go with it.

In many ways, the son almost set me up. For a start, I was told it had a working diesel engine but when we went on board, the ignition started smoking and the wiring was catastrophic.

From my perspective, I thought it was a shame. I hate to see neglected boats, bikes, cars or anything that's been abandoned.

I'm happy to see it through so long as I'm not flooded by other interested parties once all the hard work has been done and all the bills paid. I figure I deserve something nice for myself after all the hard work and effort.

 

I agree. You can't take a gift back, you gave it away and it's not yours any more.

The only question is who had the right to dispose of this item from the dead man's estate? Without evidence from the will or probate, it won't be clear but it seems reasonable to think that the son would have had a right to sell it.

[Keeping Up]

One thing I do know is if the sale isn't in order, I'd want paying for my restoration work to date as well as back pay for license, safety and mooring. This runs into a lot of money, tools, fibreglass substances, engine parts and electronics as well as mechanics fees earlier on.

Not to mention all the skilled labour you've put into it. Just cost up every hour hour you've spent on the boat at, say, £50 per hour, and add the total to the list.

 

Allan

[FORTUNATA]

Honestly, my intentions have been good from the outset. I knew I was kind of crazy to take on a restoration project with no real restoration experience behind me but I hate to see neglect. It's sad to see some boat or other just left to go to ruin. Hell, there was even a bush growing out of the outdrive!

You see a lot of it these days around here. I don't know why it is people don't tend to look after their fibreglass boats. All it takes is a lick of paint every couple of years, a bit of cleaning, keeping the engine greased and serviced e.t.c.

The fact is those people who take it upon themselves to restore a craft, spend more money than they would buying one that's in full working order.

I met one guy who spent 15, 000 restoring the floor of his steel narrowboat. It needed replating.

 

 

Not to mention all the skilled labour you've put into it. Just cost up every hour hour you've spent on the boat at, say, £50 per hour, and add the total to the list.

 

Allan

[bottle]

Hi Fortunata

 

I am going to be blunt, if it offends sorry but

 

Stop worrying with the, if this , if that, scenario and get your self to Citizens Advice or solicitor to get the correct advice and find out where you stand with this.

 

You have to go to the 'professionals' and the quicker the better.

Edited January 31, 2007 by bottle

[miles beyond]

Hi Fortunata

 

I am going to be blunt, if it offends sorry but

 

Stop worrying with the, if this , if that, scenario and get your self to Citizens Advice or solicitor to get the correct advice and find out where you stand with this.

 

You have to go to the 'professionals' and the quicker the better.

 

Fortunata: Bottle is absolutely right.

 

I do know that if the boat formed part of the estate then it had to be disposed of properly for any transaction to be legal. From what you have written that was probably not the case, and you are now aware of it. Unfortunately any improvements you have carried out are not of relevance if it was not your boat in the first place in law, however innocent you may be of wrong doing. A similar example would be if you bought a boat on a verbal agreement (technically a contract in law but nigh on impossible to establish in most cases) and subsequently it transpired that there was a marine mortgage outstanding. The mortgagees would be fully entitled to take possession as they would have first claim, regardless of any improvements you might have made.

 

Go to a CAB pronto if I were you.

 

Miles B

[FORTUNATA]

I have a friend who works in the CAB. He can't really give a concrete answer as law can be very complex. I know that from other legal situations I've encountered over time such as disputes over fences, boundaries and what have you.

So far nobody has specifically shown any interest in this particular boat or the other one that was sold.

Whatever the case may be, I've no real appetite for spending any more money on lawyers and legal representation as well as restoration. It wouldn't be worthwhile.

Fortunately, my fees for license and stuff aren't due till the end of March so I could decide to let B.W and the former owners sort it out.

Meantime I still have the outboard and boats are coming pretty cheap these days regardless. Whatever way it's not a major problem.

 

 

 

 

Fortunata: Bottle is absolutely right.

 

I do know that if the boat formed part of the estate then it had to be disposed of properly for any transaction to be legal. From what you have written that was probably not the case, and you are now aware of it. Unfortunately any improvements you have carried out are not of relevance if it was not your boat in the first place in law, however innocent you may be of wrong doing. A similar example would be if you bought a boat on a verbal agreement (technically a contract in law but nigh on impossible to establish in most cases) and subsequently it transpired that there was a marine mortgage outstanding. The mortgagees would be fully entitled to take possession as they would have first claim, regardless of any improvements you might have made.

 

Go to a CAB pronto if I were you.

 

Miles B

[John Orentas]

Fortuna.

 

In my view if you bought the boat in good faith it is yours, if others dispute that then onus is on them to prove their case. Get together as much documentation as you can, and that includes things like technical manuals, photo's and even print-outs from the posts on this site concerning your boat and the efforts you have been making to sort it out. From now on document everything you do and keep copies of everything even vaguely to do with the boat. That includes keeping a journal of everything, it's called contemporary documentation it carries a lot of weight in law.

 

If it ever comes to some sort of law case you will have half a ton of paper and the other party will have a few sheets of tatty A4.

Edited February 1, 2007 by John Orentas

[chris w]

Fortuna.

 

In my view if you bought the boat in good faith it is yours,

 

 

Unfortunately the Law doesn't take "good faith" into account only the facts of ownership. If you buy goods from someone who did not have good title to sell you those goods, the goods still belong to the title owner and all you have is a case against the seller - either criminal or civil depending on the circumstances.

 

There is one curious exception to this, due to an historical anomaly that has never been repealed: goods bought between sunrise and sunset within the boundary of the City of London are yours if bought "in good faith" even if the seller did not have good title.

 

Chris

Edited February 2, 2007 by chris w