Marine gearbox attached to BMC 1.5

[LEO]

I have never hear of a J D Meakes marinised direct raw water cooled engine. As far as I know they started their own marinisation of 1.5s to go into their Madeira range or cruisers maybe 5 years before they went broke. They had their own exhaust manifold/heat exchanges and flywheel housings cast in aluminium. We felt their flywheel housing was more satisfactory than the official Newage/Tempest ones at the time and changed to using their marinisation parts for our engines but we had them cp the ends of the manifolds so we could use them without cores for keel cooling.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Sorry. I meant it was a Meakes conversion of a 1.5 - presumably we are talking about 'Meakes' who had the boatyard at Marlow?, The exhaust manifold looked 'homegrown' when I changed it.

 

ATB

 

L.

[oldbulldog]

To Pete I:-

 

Did you manage to get rid of the gearbox?

 

If not would love to have it as i have one in my boat. Have been trying to find out whatit was for ages and just stumbled onto your posts.

 

Cheers,

 

Phil

[RLWP]

It's still with Pete, I haven't collected it

 

If it's the same as your gearbox, I think you should have it - as long as you collect it!

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Hi again all.

 

Errm right just revisited this post and saw oldbulldog's post and RLWP's reply. Yes I still have the gearbox. There are no guarantees with it though. I have absolutely no idea how good or bad it is. Either one of you can have it. If Richard (cos he had first dibs on it) says you can have it that is fine by me oldbulldog.

 

Although you can have the gearbox for nout you will need to collect it or pay to courier it to you.

 

Pm me if you still want it oldbulldog I wont get rid of it

 

P

[pete.i]

Hello

Just updating this post and yet some more questions. THE BEAST LIVES. (Well sort of.) Having taken the engine to bits and making sure that everything was actually there I decided that I had spent enough money for now on it bearing in mind that I didn't know whether it would fire up because if it wouldn't even try to fire then to carry on spending more money on it wasn't worth it. Anyway I put it all back together using the old head gasket and tried to start it. The first half hour or so of turning it over were pretty fruitless. I wasn't using the heaters because I thought it would have been warm enough for it to, at least try to fire. Anyway as I said no go. So I stuck the battery on charge overnight. In the morning I rigged up a connection to the glow plugs and heated them for 30 seconds and it fired. It didn't stay running but I thought that was a start so I persevered. After a few more spins of the engine, with it just catching but dying, it finally fired up and stayed running. I didn't keep it running for more than 30 seconds or so as I hadn't put any coolant in it so I stopped it pretty damn quick. It was also very erratic but I expected that and it was kicking out thick black smoke as well although that might have been my patent emergency stop device, that I fitted over the intake manifold in case of a runaway emergency, being set a bit too close and therefore restricting the air intake.

 

Anyway the point is it did run. There were some diesel leaks from the CAV pump mainly from a part that the manual calls the cap nut. This has a seal which I replaced and that seems to have cured that.

 

The questions I have which is accompanied by a couple of pictures is:- If you look closely at the two pictures, which are of the injector holes down into the pre-combustion chamber, there is a lip that the crinkle washer sits on and below that is another face with a hole in it that the injector face sits on (I assume) and the hole accommodates the nozzle. In the other picture the lip that the crinkle washer sits on is there but there is no lower lip. The hole that you can see at the lower part of the hole is hole that exits from the pre-combustion chamber into the cylinder. The chamber without the lower ledge and hole is number one cylinder the other three cylinders all look like the first picture So to the question. Does anyone think that this is an issue. Can anyone throw any light on why that particular chamber is formed like that or what is missing. I am assuming that these ledges are machined into the head material so I just cannot see how one could be missing part of itself.

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140529_144502.jpg

 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u492/pete-i1/20140529_144513.jpg

 

Anyway thanks for any light that you can throw on this conundrum. I have decided that it is worth spending money on this engine as it did start so it isn't a lost cause. I have stripped it down again and am now grinding the valves in which is a horrible boring task. There must be a better way to do this in this day and age than with a rubber sucker and grinding paste. I'll keep the post updated as things progress and no doubt I will have plenty more questions.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Tony Brooks]

It looks to me as if the "inverted top hat" heat shield is missing from the second photo. That's enough to stop that cylinder firing so you would get smoke, but whiteish grey, not black. The engine would also jump about a bit and run rough. The top hats often stick to the injectors and come out with them. There should be a copper seating washer as well. Look in the manual or a parts list to see what I am on about.

 

It sounds to me as if you did not bleed the system well enough at first so it took time (a long time) to self bleed. Any fuel injected until it fired would tend to make blackish grey smoke until it burned away.

 

Sounds like you might be onto a winner.

[pete.i]

Okay thanks for that Tony. I did know about the copper washers I have actually taken those out as they will need replacing when it all goes back together. I did look at the injectors to see if anything had come out with them but I didn't really have a good look as I didn't know what I was looking for. I have stopped for the night now so I will have anther good look tomorrow. If those "top hat" things come out then I would expect them to be available. If it's not stuck on the injector I will have a word with Calcutt or ASAP.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

ps Actually this jogged whats left of my memory. Now you have mentioned "top hat" I seem to remember something that was/is (hopefully) in the box where I put all the bits when I first took the engine apart which did look like a top hat. I did wonder (I think) at the time what it was for and where it had come from. A good dig around tomorrow is in order.

 

pps I haven't got rid of the gearbox Richard (RLWP) and Oldbulldog didn't get back to me.

[Tony Brooks]

They are engine manufacturer parts so I suspect Calcutt would be most likely.

 

If you had the injectors overhauled the specialist should have returned the top hat with the injectors.

 

The build up goes like this.

 

Clean the flange that is part of the head.

 

Drop the larger diameter but narrow copper washer down the hole and seat.

 

Drop the "top hat" down the hole and ensure it is seated.

 

Drop crimped washer/heat shield down the hole and ensure it seats.

 

Fit copper washer around the injector nozzle and fit - screw both nuts down evenly to correct torque.

 

If you do not have new washers heat the old ones to red hot and allow to cool. this will soften them again.

 

 

Beware the crimped washers can squash flat and appear to not be missing. Putting another one in can break the top hat so have a good pick about with a small "hooked" pick like a dentist may use.

[pete.i]

Hi Tony

Yep Calcutt have them. I have ordered one as I have the other three. I couldn't find the one I thought I may have had. I have also ordered the washers up as well from Calcutt. I think I will paying a bit of money over the next few months to them. I'm going to overhaul the head first then concentrate on the block and it's bits. I intend to get the injectors overhauled by a diesel specialist and possibly the injector pump although that seems to be okay now I have sorted that little leak out.

 

Thanks for the advice Tony I'm sure I will have more questions in the coming months and TB Training is very useful as well.

 

Pete

[pete.i]

Okay back to this engine. I have got the new top hat heat shield but it wont fit down the ole. Looking down that hole with a powerful pin beam torch it looks like the old top hat heat shield is still there but the bottom part, that's the bit with the hole in it to accommodate the injector nozzle, isn't there so the hole looks a lot bigger than it should be. That would explain why the new top hat wont fit in the hole. I am trying to get the other three top hat heat shields out but they seem to very stuck in. I have tried a small pick that I made and I read on another forum that someone had put grooves into the outside edge of a pair of long nosed pliers and then opened the plies after inserting them into the hole and pulling the shields out that way. Someone else said to tap the top of the shield to break the carbon build up (?) that might be holding them in. So far nothing that I have tried has shifted these heat shields. I then thought that I should concentrate on the broken (?) heat shield. That has even less area to get a grip of so that hasn't shifted yet either. My next thought was to go in from the bottom ie removing the pre-combustion chamber and then knocking the shield up the other way. I have read about that other people's pre-combustion chambers have just fallen out it would seem but not mine. obviously I have quite a large hole on that cylinder so I can use quite a large drift down that hole but nothing has shifted the chamber either. both the top hat heat shield and the pre-combustion chamber must be removable because I can buy new ones from Calcutt but so far the method of removing these has eluded me.

 

So if anyone has any ideas on how to remove these items they would most gratefully received. Oh I did try a little heat but I am a bit wary about heating the head up too much for, what I think, are obvious reasons. But I might just be being a bit overcautious with that.

 

Pete

[Tony Brooks]

Now great care is needed. The injectors type (not part number) can have more than one nozzle fitted. I think the Perkins 4-10X series use a longer nozzle. When a "long" nozzle injector is fitted to a BMC the end of the top hat falls off. Check the length of the injector nozzles against each other - especially the one that came out of that hole.

 

If it was mine I would be trying to screw a tap into the hole. The twisting action may well break the old top hat away so you can just lift it out. If it does not I would see if I could weld a slide hammer to the tap and try to pull it out.

 

If i could not shift the crimped washer I used to use a hammer and long tin screwdriver to whack around the washer and that usually loosened it enough to lift out with the pick.

[pete.i]

Okay Tony I will, carefully persevere. All the injectors that came out are all the same length but that does not mean that someone hasn't fitted a long one previously. I have seen a long injector. A mate does Land Rover engines and the injectors that were in those engines look exactly the same as the BMC ones but they are significantly longer and yes if they had been fitted at any time I would expect them to break out the bottom of the heat shield.

 

Crimp washers aint none in this engine. I do know there should be some because it says there should be some in the manual but whoever had this apart the last time any work was done on the head either scimped on fitting the proper stuff or just didn't have a clue what they were doing. On that score another question. I have completely stripped that head apart from the valve guides. When I took the valve springs off there was a rubber O ring for the valve stem oil seal where I expected to see rubber cap type oil seal. There is a groove on the top of the valve guide which I assume to to accommodate the oil seal so retaining it's position at the top of the guide. The manual shows a cap type seal so I think that is what should be on my engine. Is that a correct assumption on my part?

 

Pete

[RLWP]

Yes. Head gasket kits usually have the later seals. MGB ones fit

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Thanks for that Richard. I haven't actually got round to buying a head gasket kit yet I shall do that tomorrow.

 

Pete

[Tony Brooks]

Original seals were O rings. They stopped oil running from the collets down the valve stem into the guide. Sometimes only 4 were supplied.

[pete.i]

Okay Tony thanks for that. I must have the original seals then. I assume that I can fit the newer type, though, if that is what comes with the head gasket kit?

[RLWP]

Yes you can

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Hi again all.

 

Okay next question. I have had to smash the precombustion chamber out of the head of this engine by drilling holes in it to weaken it and then, basically, break it up to remove it. That allowed me to tackle the stuck heat shield from the underneath and I was able to break that up to remove it. I had made up a puller that I had attached to an extractor that I had managed to screw in quite tightly to the heat shield and using the injector studs and nuts I tried pulling the heat shield out. This heat shield (for those of you that have not been following this saga) had to come out because the bottom of the shield had been broken off, apparently, because someone in the dim and distant past had tried to fit a Land Rover type injector which are very similar to the BMC ones but they are longer this results in the bottom of the heat shield being broken off. Anyway, back to the puller, it didn't even slightly move the stuck heat shield. All the happened was that the bar that I was using as the lever part of the puller bent. I actually bent two makeshift pullers trying to extract the heat shield. Anyway upshot is that I have now got the old heat shield out and put the new one in ( no I didn't forget the copper washer underneath the heat shield Tony) but at the expense of the pre-combustion chamber.

 

The question. Calcutt only list a BMC 1.8 pre-combustion chamber but I cannot see why a BMC 1.8 chanber should be any different from a 1.5 chamber. I have rung Calcutt but apparently their chief engineer isn't there today so they don't know so I am asking the gurus on here. will a BMC 1.8 pre-combustion chanmber fit in the hole that a BMC 1.5 pre-combustion chamber came out and is the 1.8 one the same beasty as the 1.5 one.

 

Hope I made that clear.

 

thanks for any advice

 

Pete

[pete.i]

Okay forget that question it has been answered by the man at Calcutt. The BMC 1.8 and the BMC 1.5 pre-combustion chambers are different but the man from calcutt has found a 1.5 one for me.

 

Pete

[RLWP]

You can usually tap them out with a rod down the injector hole

 

Richard

[pete.i]

You can usually tap them out with a rod down the injector hole

 

Richard

 

I wish. I know they should come out quite easily as should the heat shield but these, I can assure you, weren't going to go anywhere with "taps". The combustion chamber broke into 3 pieces before it came out and the heat shield came out in 4 pieces. Apparently the man at Calcutt said that they must have been stuck in with some form of adhesive. He did mention a name but I can't remember what it was. Either way there was no way in the world they were going to shift just by knocking them out. I was going to replace all the heat shields but but I don't think I'll bother now the others are not going anywhere. I had to replace that one because the bottom had been knocked out. Anyway it's sorted now, i have the new heat shield in and I should get the combustion chamber tomorrow then I can start putting the head back together,

 

Pete

[RLWP]

Did you check the top hat against your injector before installing it?

 

Richard

[pete.i]

Did you check the top hat against your injector before installing it?

 

Richard

Um do you mean did I make sure that the new top hat fits on the injector before I installed it then yes I did. Or do you mean did I check that it wasn't one of the injectors that I have that broke the old top hat then yes I have checked the injectors length that I have and they are all okay. The broken top hat must have happened previously and then the injector was changed for a right one but the top hat was never replaced. Do you remember the original pictures of the pistons that I put up at the beginningish of this thread. Well the gnarled up one is the same cylinder. I think what has happened is that the bottom of the top hat was broken and that found it's way into the cylinder and that is what has caused the damage to the top of the piston and the head. The debris then got shot out of the exhaust. Luckily it hasn't damaged the valve seat that I can see but I am going to grind the valves in anyway.

[RLWP]

Or bent the con rod?

 

Check the distance from the top of the block to the top of the pistons to see if the gnarled up one is different

 

Richard

Edited June 6, 2014 by RLWP

[pete.i]

Or bent the con rod?

 

Check the distance from the top of the block to the top of the pistons to see if the gnarled up one is different

 

Richard

Okay Richard I will do that. To be honest that hadn't crossed my mind till you just mentioned it.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

Okay checked that with piston 1 and 4 at the top of the cylinder and there is no measureable distance from the top of the piston to the top of the block. There is no difference between piston 1 and piston 4. I think that whatever it was that went into the cylinder just gnarled up the top of the piston and the undersdide of the head, to an extent, rather than bending the con rod thankfully. I will admit that the compression is down on cylinder 1 which is the one that has got damaged but I am hoping that when I have ground the valves in and put a new cylinder head gasket on and done the tappets that will improve. If not a rethink will be in order but I will cross that bridge as and when.

Edited June 6, 2014 by pete.i