VAT on boats in France

[Biggles]

A friend of mine living in France says I will need receipts for everything you have spent on the boat to prove vat is paid where possible. If the boat is in the country for more that 6 months and no vat is paid they will say its base is france and you will be liable to pay tva on it....they will issue a valuation and tva is 19.2 % He says I shoud check this out.

 

[Timleech]

 

A friend of mine living in France says I will need receipts for everything you have spent on the boat to prove vat is paid where possible. If the boat is in the country for more that 6 months and no vat is paid they will say its base is france and you will be liable to pay tva on it....they will issue a valuation and tva is 19.2 % He says I shoud check this out.

 

 

 

That's how it was years ago, we 'imported' out Humber Keel in about 1976. Luckily we had the receipt from the scrapyard where we bought it for just above scrap value.

I would have thought that had all gone by the board with the advent of the Single Market, or does it still apply?

 

Tim

[MunkeyBoy]

Dont you just need the original bill of sale showing VAT paid?

I cant see them wanting every reciept on a self fitout on a sailaway or refitted secondhand boat for example?

[Biggles]

My mate is involved in sea going boats in France. I suspect in them cases there could be money laundering or tax evasion behind it

[Phil.]

Your friend is correct you must be able to show that you have paid vat in one EU state to avoid a charge in another

[Timleech]

Ah, I see what you're saying now, which is a bit different from the situation we had to deal with.

We did have to pay tax on ours, even though we'd paid tax at home, that shouldn't apply now if you can prove you've already paid at home.

 

Tim

Edited February 18, 2014 by Timleech

[Biggles]

I have a full set of expenditure for the build but not every or even most receipts still.

[Biggles]

Would this apply to a self build? There was never any requirement to keep paperwork

[bargemast]

Ah, I see what you're saying now, which is a bit different from the situation we had to deal with.

We did have to pay tax on ours, even though we'd paid tax at home, that shouldn't apply now if you can prove you've already paid at home.

 

Tim

 

 

That's what I had to do too, when I decided to stay in France in '79.

 

The customs didn't want me to pay the taxes on the price written on the bill of sale dated '75 when I had bought that barge.

 

They wanted the value to be estimated by a specialist, who worked out to be a man knowing absolutely nothing about barges at all.

 

He asked me the age of the barge, and I said that he as a specialist should have a pretty good estimation of the age already.

 

His conclusion was that the barge was surely older than 10 years, well he was right there, as she dated from 1897.

 

So I said that because of her age, the value should have become even lower than on my bill of sale, but he started to talk about antique value.

 

But in the end, I managed to make a deal when I said that I was prepared to sell the barge for scrap value to a scrap yard if they would give me the value on the bill of sale, or close to that value, and I paid over the price I had paid in '75.

 

Apart from that there were still some other difficulties to be able to import the barge, as when I left Holland, I didn't know at the time that I was going to stay, so I didn't export the barge when I left Holland, and something that hasn't got the required export papers can't be imported.

 

It was quite a struckle with the Dutch customs, who didn't want to give me the export papers (T-2 forms) with the barge already in France, but after a full they at their office in Amsterdam, they supplied me with a T-2 S, which isn't the same at all, and the chief of the custom at Auxerre was most upset about, finally by paying a specialist firm dealing in import and export all day, I got it done.

 

 

At the moment, as said already, if the VAT has been paid in one of the EU-contries and you have the proof of this, you don't have to pay anymore to import the boat.

 

If not the actual VAT rate in France is 20 %.

 

Peter.

[Timleech]

 

 

It was quite a struckle with the Dutch customs, who didn't want to give me the export papers (T-2 forms) with the barge already in France, but after a full they at their office in Amsterdam, they supplied me with a T-2 S, which isn't the same at all, and the chief of the custom at Auxerre was most upset about, finally by paying a specialist firm dealing in import and export all day, I got it done.

 

Peter.

 

When I took our Gardner 4LW to Belgium for fitting to the Beecliffe, in the back of a van, I'd consulted with UK customs who then supplied me with the 'right' forms, which I suppose we got stamped as we left Dover.

Arriving in Oostende, the Belgian customs asked to have a look in the van, then for the papers. He said we had the wrong form, & pondered what to do. Then he asked what it was worth. I'd probably put a value on the form, maybe £1000 (it was quite a few years ago), so I quoted that. He immediately came back to me asking if it was worth £400, I thought he'd misunderstood & repeated my figure. He came back a bit more insistently with the £400 figure, & I twigged what he was getting at so agreed that £400 was about right, whereupon he sent us on our way!

 

Tim

[jckm2000]

My knowledge is for yachts only but if you have the original bill of sale proving vat paid in your home or another EU country or if the boat was built before 1991and has been in EU waters most of the time since then, then no further vat is payable. We don't have the original bill of sale, just a reciept and sales contract from when we bought our yacht from a German boatyard plus letters from two German harbour masters stating that she's always lived there since being built in '86. 8 years ago andhhad no issues sailing from UK to Greece over 3 years.

C.

[bargemast]

 

When I took our Gardner 4LW to Belgium for fitting to the Beecliffe, in the back of a van, I'd consulted with UK customs who then supplied me with the 'right' forms, which I suppose we got stamped as we left Dover.

Arriving in Oostende, the Belgian customs asked to have a look in the van, then for the papers. He said we had the wrong form, & pondered what to do. Then he asked what it was worth. I'd probably put a value on the form, maybe £1000 (it was quite a few years ago), so I quoted that. He immediately came back to me asking if it was worth £400, I thought he'd misunderstood & repeated my figure. He came back a bit more insistently with the £400 figure, & I twigged what he was getting at so agreed that £400 was about right, whereupon he sent us on our way!

 

Tim

The £400 figure was probably the maximum value of goods at that time that you were allowed to import without having to pay additional taxes, and being Belgian, and dicovered that you had the wrong form anyway, instead of waisting his time filling out other forms and more hassle he prefered to send you off like that, a good man, too bad they weren't all like him.

 

Peter.

Edited February 20, 2014 by bargemast

[Timleech]

The £400 figure was probably the maximum value of goods at that time that you were allowed to import without having to pay additional taxes, and being Belgian, and dicovered that you had the wrong form anyway, instead of waisting his time filling out other forms and more hassle he prefered to send you off like that, a good man, too bad they weren't all like him.

 

Peter.

 

Yes, I'm sure that was what he was getting at, it just took me a few moments to work it out

 

Edit to add that the figures I gave may be completely wrong, it was all a long time ago, over 35 years ago.

"How long, sir?"

"Thirty-Five years!"

 

 

It might have been well under the £400.

 

Tim

Edited February 21, 2014 by Timleech

[Stilllearning]

Having lived in Belgium, it's more than likely that's what he was thinking. It's a lovely place with friendly people, both Flamands and Wallons.

[thorne lass]

 

That's how it was years ago, we 'imported' out Humber Keel in about 1976. Luckily we had the receipt from the scrapyard where we bought it for just above scrap value.

I would have thought that had all gone by the board with the advent of the Single Market, or does it still apply?

 

Tim

 

 

No, its the same, but different. No T2's, no T2L's anymore, no customs bonding after 6 months, and it is in general a lot easier, but there are still relevant pitfalls.

 

Concisely, and from memory:

 

1. A boat that can be proven to have been built before 31st. December 1992 and which was in the EU on that date is automatically regarded as "VAT Paid." items such as original invoices, repair invoices, mooring bills etc. will all help prove the age of the boat if it is not riveted.

 

2. A boat built since 1993 should carry paperwork showing that VAT has been paid, certainly on major items. Any boat could have been built in the UK but exported VAT-free oiutside Europe, so could be returning to the EU with no VAT ever having been paid, hence the requirement for receipted invoices. The authorities may also take into account documentary records, say BW licences, mooring invoices etc. supporting any contention that the boat has remained in the UK (for example) throughout. In short, post-1993 boats do need a paperwork record to prove VAT-paid status or problems could be expectable. These records should be part of the "Ship's Papers," either passed on from the last owner or archived by a self builder.

[bargemast]

 

 

No, its the same, but different. No T2's, no T2L's anymore, no customs bonding after 6 months, and it is in general a lot easier, but there are still relevant pitfalls.

 

Concisely, and from memory:

 

1. A boat that can be proven to have been built before 31st. December 1992 and which was in the EU on that date is automatically regarded as "VAT Paid." items such as original invoices, repair invoices, mooring bills etc. will all help prove the age of the boat if it is not riveted.

 

2. A boat built since 1993 should carry paperwork showing that VAT has been paid, certainly on major items. Any boat could have been built in the UK but exported VAT-free oiutside Europe, so could be returning to the EU with no VAT ever having been paid, hence the requirement for receipted invoices. The authorities may also take into account documentary records, say BW licences, mooring invoices etc. supporting any contention that the boat has remained in the UK (for example) throughout. In short, post-1993 boats do need a paperwork record to prove VAT-paid status or problems could be expectable. These records should be part of the "Ship's Papers," either passed on from the last owner or archived by a self builder.

 

It's exactly as you are saying, and I discovered that I wrote in post # 9 T2-S, that should have been 2T L of cours,

 

I'm happy that all these troubles belong to the past.

 

Peter.

[Timleech]

 

 

No, its the same, but different. No T2's, no T2L's anymore, no customs bonding after 6 months, and it is in general a lot easier, but there are still relevant pitfalls.

 

Concisely, and from memory:

 

1. A boat that can be proven to have been built before 31st. December 1992 and which was in the EU on that date is automatically regarded as "VAT Paid." items such as original invoices, repair invoices, mooring bills etc. will all help prove the age of the boat if it is not riveted.

 

2. A boat built since 1993 should carry paperwork showing that VAT has been paid, certainly on major items. Any boat could have been built in the UK but exported VAT-free oiutside Europe, so could be returning to the EU with no VAT ever having been paid, hence the requirement for receipted invoices. The authorities may also take into account documentary records, say BW licences, mooring invoices etc. supporting any contention that the boat has remained in the UK (for example) throughout. In short, post-1993 boats do need a paperwork record to prove VAT-paid status or problems could be expectable. These records should be part of the "Ship's Papers," either passed on from the last owner or archived by a self builder.

 

The really big difference, then, is that you no longer have to prove a value for the boat?

Edit - and hopefully don't have anything to pay

 

Tim

Edited February 21, 2014 by Timleech

[Biggles]

Thats good to know. I can easily prove that I have been in the UK paying mooring and river fees for the last 2 years since launch. I have even on the odd occasion or 2 upset Cambridge City Council and the CamCon for mooring in the wrong place and having official letters sent.

 

I think I am worrying about nothing, but it is still a consideration.