Need expansion tank help please

[bizzard]

Hi

 

Thank nicknorman

 

ok im worried now that something is going very very wrong . my waterpump is now not working at all . it is completely dead and im totally lost as to why it has now packed up .

it looks like the wire to the pump are no longer working . i ve put a 12 v fan that i know works onto the wires and theres nothing . im really very worried now

Any suggestions please

 

thanks

Oh don't get worried old bean life would be very boring without little problems. The pumps supply should be fused so check at the 12v fuse board for a blown fuse. Most water pumps starting current is about 7amps, so the pumps fuse if it only protects the pump wiring would be say a 10amp fuse, maybe the pumps fuse is only a 5amp or lower.

[chubby]

cheers Bizzard

 

im a touch stressed so thanks for your calming demeanour ! i ve checked the fusebox . it has a 15 amp fuse which ive changed but still nothing !!

 

cheers

[bizzard]

cheers Bizzard

 

im a touch stressed so thanks for your calming demeanour ! i ve checked the fusebox . it has a 15 amp fuse which ive changed but still nothing !!

 

cheers

Ok. Have you a manual switch somewhere to switch the pump off and on. If so pull it off and find out perhaps by attaching your fan to the incoming wires from the fuse box to it. A volt or multu-meter would be best, but your fan or a 12v bulb on a couple of wires will test it ok.

[chubby]

Hi bizzard

 

How bizzarre . ive just been doing exactly that . i attached the fan to the tv amp . it worked .

then attached the fan to the manual switch for the pump .... nothing .

ive rechecked the fuses to make sure ive checked the correct one and have done it correctly .

All the other 12 v on the boat is ok .

worried now ........

 

cheers

[bizzard]

Hi bizzard

 

How bizzarre . ive just been doing exactly that . i attached the fan to the tv amp . it worked .

then attached the fan to the manual switch for the pump .... nothing .

ive rechecked the fuses to make sure ive checked the correct one and have done it correctly .

All the other 12 v on the boat is ok .

worried now ........

 

cheers

Ok Are your sure your onto the right fuse at the fuse box? If so connect you fan to the fuses incoming terminal and then to the outgoing terminal to see if theirs power with one of the fans wire held onto a neg- like the neg (black wires) bus bar. If so then there's a disconnection somewhere between the fuse box and the manual pump switch.

Ok Are your sure your onto the right fuse at the fuse box? If so connect you fan to the fuses incoming terminal and then to the outgoing terminal to see if theirs power with one of the fans wire held onto a neg- like the neg (black wires) bus bar. If so then there's a disconnection somewhere between the fuse box and the manual pump switch.

If there is power at the pump fuses terminals pull the fuse out and see if anything else stops working.

Edited October 22, 2013 by bizzard

[chubby]

ok ,

 

This is doing my head in . This boat is newish to me ive not had to dig around in my fusebox like this before .

 

On the door there is a list of fuses 1-10 with what each fuse is for and the fuse size that goes there . Eg fuse 8 , pump out toilet, 40 amp .

 

Fuse 9 - water pump - 15 amp BUT !!!! there are no wires either side of this fuse ???

 

Confused . com!!

 

any ideas - as i say everythimg else is as normal !

[bizzard]

ok ,

 

This is doing my head in . This boat is newish to me ive not had to dig around in my fusebox like this before .

 

On the door there is a list of fuses 1-10 with what each fuse is for and the fuse size that goes there . Eg fuse 8 , pump out toilet, 40 amp .

 

Fuse 9 - water pump - 15 amp BUT !!!! there are no wires either side of this fuse ???

 

Confused . com!!

 

any ideas - as i say everythimg else is as normal !

Looks like you'll have to try and trace the wire back from the pump switch, you may come across an inline fuse in the process. Or isolate the existing wire to the switch with tape and run a new one from the unused fuse that says water pump on it to the switch and and a new feed wire from the main pos+ feed to the other side of the fuse.

Edited October 22, 2013 by bizzard

[chubby]

Cheers for your help Bizzard . Im very grateful to uou . Ive got little chance of tracing these wires . They re a mess and thenthey go into black conduit tubes to who knows where .

 

why on earth should fuse 9 be for the water pump and state 15 amp rating but on either side of the fuse where there are spade connections but nothing attached to them ?? its completely meaningless

 

cheers

[bizzard]

Cheers for your help Bizzard . Im very grateful to uou . Ive got little chance of tracing these wires . They re a mess and thenthey go into black conduit tubes to who knows where .

 

why on earth should fuse 9 be for the water pump and state 15 amp rating but on either side of the fuse where there are spade connections but nothing attached to them ?? its completely meaningless

 

cheers

Have you checked if all the other fuses are ok as the pumps wire maybe connected to one of those. Also where does the neg- black wire from the pump lead to? it maybe that one is not making contact. How did you connect your fan to the neg.

[chubby]

Hi Bizzard

 

thanks again .

 

The only thing i can surmise is that the pumps wiring must be in some way combined with sonething else . But everything else is working fine . Surely if the pump was wired into something elses wiring then the something would be not working too .

Ive got cabin lights that dont work . ive got navigation lights that come on if i use one of the ceiling lights so all that info about which fuse relates to which circuit could be nonsense as the last owner may have screwed around too much .

Ive already had to repair his " workmanship " in the galley and bathroom .

The electrics seem a total mess to tell the truth .

The only thing i can think of doing next is to check all the fuses to see if the info panel on the door is somehow incorrect as it does seem strange even to a complete novice like me for wires to just stop working completely whilst everything else 12 v remains fine .

It may be that the pump is NOT wired into something else but that some other things are wired together - as i say when i turn on one of the ceiling lights the navigation lights come on and the last owner did this to " free up " room on the fusebox for the pump but never bothered to amend the details on the door panel .

Im exhausted so i think i shall have a cup of tea and try to relax a bit and wait till morning to inspect the fuse box .

 

Thanks again Bizzard for all your help

 

cheers

[nicknorman]

I don't know how the fuse box labelling is done, but if on the inside of a removable lid, maybe you are reading it back to front. Try reading it in the reverse direction to identify the water-pump fuse.

[bizzard]

Like ( esuf pmup)

[nicknorman]

No biz like the fuse on the far left is actually the one on the far right. But then you knew that, naughty!

[chubby]

cheers again guys .

 

The guide on the fusebox door ( the same info is printed and inside a big file of boat related info ) looks like fuse 1 is at the top , fuse 10 at the bottom and fuse 9 is for the water pump but theres no spade connectors either side so theres no wire running ( like the rest of the fuses ) up into the roof space and then forward to their relavant places within the cabin . Fuse 9 is totally redundant . Theres a blue 15 amp car fuse in its place but no wires from it . So the pump must be fused into one of the other fuses ( the info suggests 15 amp for the waterpump and in total there are another 4 15 amp fuses for other things ( supposedly ) so these will be the first i check . I was going to check tomorrow but ithink i shall look now to see if any of the other 15 amp fuse r blown .

 

cheers

[nicknorman]

Try checking fuse 2. Otherwise, you just have to check all 9 which shouldn't be too hard. When you said there was no power to the waterpump switch, did you check both wires attached to the switch? Ie to be sure you were checking the feed from the fuse box and not the wire to the pump?

[chubby]

OK

 

Now ive just checked the fuseboard & all the remaining fuses are fine .

BUT there is also a panel with 3 toggle switches . one is for a light in the engine room .

Another is for "running lights "

at the top there is another that just says " on "

to the right hand side of the panel each of the three toggle switches has a thumbscrew with the word " fuse " .

when unscrewed and inspected the one at the top has blown and its 15 amp but its a glass fuse thats tube shaped . Ive seen similar on an " inline " fuse on my whale gulper pump for the shower .

im guessing this must be the 15amp fuse for the water pump and if it is then the pumps fuse

its certainly not where the boats info file and the fusebox info panel say it is .

 

Im going to mooch around a little cupboard in the engine room for a spare one of these fuses but i expect not to find one but might be lucky as there are plenty of car fuses . If i have no joy is this the sort of thing i can get in Halfords ??

 

cheers again chaps

[bizzard]

OK

 

Now ive just checked the fuseboard & all the remaining fuses are fine .

BUT there is also a panel with 3 toggle switches . one is for a light in the engine room .

Another is for "running lights "

at the top there is another that just says " on "

to the right hand side of the panel each of the three toggle switches has a thumbscrew with the word " fuse " .

when unscrewed and inspected the one at the top has blown and its 15 amp but its a glass fuse thats tube shaped . Ive seen similar on an " inline " fuse on my whale gulper pump for the shower .

im guessing this must be the 15amp fuse for the water pump and if it is then the pumps fuse

its certainly not where the boats info file and the fusebox info panel say it is .mains plug fuse the same siz

 

Im going to mooch around a little cupboard in the engine room for a spare one of these fuses but i expect not to find one but might be lucky as there are plenty of car fuses . If i have no joy is this the sort of thing i can get in Halfords ??

 

cheers again chaps

Is a 13amp mains plug fuse the same size? or try one from one of the other holders. Halfords might have them, cars ceased using them in their fuse boxes a long long time ago. But they are still used in some line fuse holders.

[chubby]

cheers again Bizzard

 

i thought of using one of the other two good fuses to test whether the blown fuse is indeed the one protecting the pump . but ive got to put a new switch for the pump in first as the original switch is now in bits .

What i shall attempt once i have fitted the switch in the morning is to remove the thumbscrew and its fuse from the bottom of the three toggle switches which is for a small light in the engine room . If it too is 15 amp ( ive no idea whether it is likely to be ) then i can use it on the waterpump instead and then find a replacement for the light fuse .

All being well this thread may even return to thread about expansion tanks and if the fuse situation is sorted i can the go back to nicknormans helpful advice about setting the expansion tanks psi .

 

cheers again - i am extremely grateful for everyones help as im out of my depth here dealing with electrics & plumbing but im guessing its thru tackling such issues that you learn ,

 

cheers again

[Alastair]

The flow actually seems quite weak at the taps so could / should i adjust the pressure reducing valve up to say 2.5 bar and then set the expansion tank according to this pressure instead in order to make the flow at the taps better ?

 

Increasing the pressure will not increase the flow. All that will happen is that you will get an initial spurt of water, then the pump starts and pumps at it's max rate. Increasing pressure will not make the pump go faster.

 

If your pump is cutting in and out and you are getting a stop-start flow, then the solution is an accumulator. This will smooth out the flow.

[Captain Fizz]

It is through problems that we all get to learn the systems on our boats.

It's easy when you have built it from scratch but when you are dealing with previous owners "modifications" it can be very frustrating.

[chubby]

OK folks

 

thanks again for your replies . its been a late start this morning for me . Ive just got hold of a 15 amp glass fuse from the local garage and replaced the switch & ive now got a waterpump thats working again. ! !!!!!!

 

im going to go back now and follow nicknormans advice about setting the pressure on the expansion tank i fitted yesterday . When / if i get this working i will then amend the notes in my boats file tho somehow i dont think im going to be forgetting anytime soon where to find the fuse for the waterpump !

Also i wont adjust the pressure from the pump going out to the calorifier . The pressure reducing valve just after the accumulator is set at 2 bar / 29 psi .

 

So ......... time to leave electrics behind for now and return to the daunting mysterious black art of plumbing ........

 

cheers all

[nicknorman]

Well done, you're nearly there!

[chubby]

Good morning

 

Thank goodness your around . I think im going to need some help - quelle surprise .

 

Ok

Entirely aware of my inexperience with plumbing i actually took my expansion tank into a large plumbers merchant to acquire the necessary fitting to hook it into my 15 mm speedfit pipes .

They told me that Speedfit do not manufacture a connector (3/4" ? i believe ) that can then have a very short piece of 15 mm pipe inserted before fitting the other end of same short 15 mm pipe into a speedfit equal T .

 

They suggested - insisted the only option was a brass compression fitting , PTFE tape on the 3/4" thread and a short piece of copper pipe which then goes into a 15mm speedfit equal T .

 

I took thier advice and to be very fair to these guys they didn t even take any money from me - they just asked that i tell my neigbours as theyre 3 doors away from screwfix who probably get the lions share of walk in trade .

 

I have to admit i was somewhat dubious - i really wanted to keep the entire system on the same " product " ie speedfit for every connection .

 

The result is lots of water under my bed having attempted to follow your very concise and helpful instruction s .

 

ive gone thru screwfix catalog and there appear to be several speedfit 3/4" tap connectors that reduce to 15 mm . i cannot do links to them im afraid - very sorry

 

one type ( 17338 ) has a brass thread , the other ( 85257 ) has a plasic thread .

To my mind these MUST be fine . I cannot imagine why Speedfit as a company would manufacture fitting for 90% of the plumbing industry and go " can t be bothered to make a fitting for expansion tanks "

 

Any opinions on these items & sorry again for the lack of link

 

so near and yet .......

 

cheers

[Alastair]

I think you need brass male-male adaptor (so it screws into your bottle at one end and give a 'male' fitting) then a female to female 3/4" - 15mm reducer like this

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p59982?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_campaign=googleshopping&mkwid=ZW8CkwnZ&pcrid=25046333423&gclid=CKqopqjxrLoCFTMctAodoVQAXw

[nicknorman]

You don't actually say where its leaking -is it the joint into the expansion vessel? There is nothing fundamentally wrong with using copper pipe and speedfit fittings.

 

Assuming it is leaking at the joint with the tank, its difficult to be helpful without seeing the fitting on the expansion vessel - the picture in the screwfix catalogue doesn't show it. Assuming its a 3/4" female thread, you can't fit another female threaded fitting to it. You need a male threaded fitting. The other thing to bear in mind is how to make it seal. Using PTFE tape in the hope of sealing the threads will never work properly unless the threads are tapered. You need some sort of a flange on each fitting so that he flanges come together via an o-ring or fibre washer as the two are screwed together. Only then will it seal properly.

 

Perhaps you just need to add a fibre washer between the tank and the coupler?

Edited October 23, 2013 by nicknorman