How Green

[blackrose]

There is a way to deal with it: vitrification followed by dropping it onto the oceanic abyssal plain. There it can very slowly disolve, adding its radioactive content to the already radioactive seawater.

 

And exactly how long can you carry on doing that? The solution to pollution is not dilution.

[Breals]

Nuclear power - a lesser of two evils compared to fossil fuel. We have to power our hydrogen cars somehow!

[blackrose]

Shown on a graph, the steeply rising C02 levels caused by the progress of industrialisation, and the curve of global temparatures correspond almost perfectly. I don't think boaters are remotely significant C02 emitters but there's no denying that the current global warming trend is man made.

 

Agreed. The vast weight of evidence shows not only that climate change is happening (which until recently was still denied by some), but also that its causes are anthropogenic.

 

Nuclear power - a lesser of two evils compared to fossil fuel. We have to power our hydrogen cars somehow!

 

Perhaps. Even James Lovelock a former anti-nuclear campaigner has come out in favour.

 

I still think part of the solution has got to be a reduction in consumption.

Edited October 31, 2006 by blackrose

[Breals]

I'm all for reduction in consumption, but it would have to be really radical to have any effect, a major change in lifestyle - are we ready for this? Will China and India take kindly to being told to curb their consumption when we are so profligate with resources?

 

Perhaps only Gaia itself can deal with the problem - by sweating us out, reducing the human population that threatens it so that the balance is returned to normal... There you go, a cheery thought to take to bed with you!

[fuzzyduck]

if Carbon's the problem, can we go back to using CFCs now?

 

Road fuel tax got to the point in the UK where professional users of it were so incensed that they went out, and protested.

 

Lo and behold, suddenly there are politicians on TV telling us fuel tax is going to go up, and everyone's lapping it up.

 

Now I don't really care one way or the other to be honest, I use about 100 litres a year in my boat, and that's it, won't have that much effect on me if the price doubles. But, it strikes me as strange that whereas a few months ago the marine community looked like loosing red diesel, and the end of the world is nigh, now, because TB and DC tell us were're all officially doomed, it almost seems as if it'd be fine.

 

The tories are even telling us they'll reduce taxation elsewhere, not that they'll fund research into carbon neutral and renewable fuels, they'll cut taxation elsewhere, just what is the point? it's quite simply bollocks.

 

my suggestion is a new rate of VAT at 2000% , anything made in a country where there is little or no environmental regulation, and/ or crap human rights, and needlessly imported, should be taxed at the new rate. pay the cost of an item including the environmental footprint or bugger off.

Edited November 1, 2006 by fuzzyduck

[anthony]

I watched a tv documentry some 6 months back about nuclear energy.

Apparently it will be less damaging to use this source of energy than the actual process of recycling which itself produces carbon waste but beleived by many to actually be green.

Perhaps getting rid of Texas would be a good start.

Is it true our global encomony will fold if we get too green?

Why are we in IRAQ if its not for oil?

All that adds to the problem.

It makes you wonder what the truth really is.

Nothing will change so get some wheels and stick them on the old boat as the canals may just dry up yet.

[Allie]

[Breals]

LMAO!

 

Road fuel tax got to the point in the UK where professional users of it were so incensed that they went out, and protested.

 

Lo and behold, suddenly there are politicians on TV telling us fuel tax is going to go up, and everyone's lapping it up.

 

Now I don't really care one way or the other to be honest, I use about 100 litres a year in my boat, and that's it, won't have that much effect on me if the price doubles. But, it strikes me as strange that whereas a few months ago the marine community looked like loosing red diesel, and the end of the world is nigh, now, because TB and DC tell us were're all officially doomed, it almost seems as if it'd be fine.

 

The tories are even telling us they'll reduce taxation elsewhere, not that they'll fund research into carbon neutral and renewable fuels, they'll cut taxation elsewhere, just what is the point? it's quite simply bollocks.

 

my suggestion is a new rate of VAT at 2000% , anything made in a country where there is little or no environmental regulation, and/ or crap human rights, and needlessly imported, should be taxed at the new rate. pay the cost of an item including the environmental footprint or bugger off.

 

Agreed, fuel tax is purely an attempt to balance the government's books with a smear of environmentalism to help sell it to us. They aren't offering any alternatives, simply taking our money won't help global warming. I'm happy for them to tax gas guzzling cars though; 4x4 owners are the lowest of the low - worse even than smokers!!! (I speak as a smoker myself).

 

VAT at 200 percent? Maybe import duty should reflect the distance the materials have travelled. We did a scheme at work with granite paving; of course all the granite was sourced in China where it is cheaper despite the transport costs. Don't we have plenty of granite here in the UK?

Edited November 1, 2006 by Breals

[Yamanx]

I'm happy for them to tax gas guzzling cars though; 4x4 owners are the lowest of the low -

 

I dont consider myself the lowest of the low.

 

There are far far worst polluters than me driving my Landrover and I pay plenty, more than my share. Industry, aviation and millions of tons of carbon put into the air by some countries thats goes completely unchecked.

 

There is no reward for being a non-polluter, no carrots just sticks.

[fuzzyduck]

it's alright yamanx, we know you didn't mean to cause climate change. Now go to your room.

 

whilst not wishing to put words into his mouth i suspect breals is probably refering to the new breed of "SUV" that's used in the wilds of camden.

[Breals]

Sorry Yanmax didn't mean to tar with the same brush. Genuine leisure use and business use are ok!

 

Smokers like me are secretly quite glad there is now a group in society more vilified than us - the Chelsea Tractor drivers...

[alan_fincher]

Smokers like me are secretly quite glad there is now a group in society more vilified than us - the Chelsea Tractor drivers...

It seems environmentalists are nearly as unpopular in the eyes of some

[fuzzyduck]

Like the ones who oppose the restoration of canals because "it might harm the wildlife" or the ones seriously destroying the broads. Rightly so.

 

It's just another fanatical religion with some.

[Yamanx]

Sorry Yanmax didn't mean to tar with the same brush. Genuine leisure use and business use are ok!

 

 

No offence taken

[Moley]

there is now a group in society more vilified than us - the Chelsea Tractor drivers...

Trouble is, while there is frequently little actual need for a bigger vehicle, with increased speeds and traffic volume, the higher driving position and a bit of weight around you gives a feeling of security.

 

I don't have a 4x4 but an MPV (Alhambra/Galaxy/Sharan). It can seat 7 and frequently does seat 6. It's an ideal workhorse for lugging stuff to the boat, taking stuff to the tip, loading up with luggage or camping gear etc.

 

For my daily run to work, it's just me, I don't need that big beast, but I like the feeling of security or superiority, and I can't afford to run a smaller vehicle as well. Cycling is not an option (it's too far and would be dangerous), public transport is not an option (my 12.5 mile journey takes 23 minutes, I would have to use 3 buses and walk a mile and I would guess it would take me at least 3 hours and cost far more than my third of a gallon of diesel).

 

I recycle and compost and do anything else I can to be a responsible citizen, but in terms of transport what alternative do I have?

[ChrisPy]

 

......... in terms of transport what alternative do I have?

get a small car with a towhitch and a trailer with removeable passenger seats (caravan?)

[blackrose]

Perhaps only Gaia itself can deal with the problem - by sweating us out, reducing the human population that threatens it so that the balance is returned to normal... There you go, a cheery thought to take to bed with you!

 

You're probably right, I suppose it comes down to overpopulation resulting from our technological development & enhanced exploitation of the earth's resources. It's a shame that Gaia's got to cut us down to size & we couldn't regulate our own behaviour.

Edited November 1, 2006 by blackrose

[Moley]

but as the planet's most intelligent species it's a shame we couldn't regulate our own behaviour.

Third most intelligent species

 

But you're right, it's our own so-called success that's made our species untenable, but give it another couple of hundred years and the planet will purge itself of this human infestation

Edited November 1, 2006 by Moley

[Bones]

Third most intelligent species

 

But you're right, it's our own so-called success that's made our species untenable, but give it another couple of hundred years and the planet will purge itself of this human infestation

 

 

or we will evolve.......

[Moley]

or we will evolve.......

No, sorry, when the temperature rises a few more degrees and the methane hydrates are released, that's it, curtains, finito, game over.

 

 

Ironic that it's only our particle pollution that's protecting us from the final disastrous consequences of our gaseous emissions, but once the fossil fuels are gone ...

Edited November 1, 2006 by Moley

[Bones]

No, sorry, when the temperature rises a few more degrees and the methane hydrates are released, that's it, curtains, finito, game over.

Ironic that it's only our particle pollution that's protecting us from the final disastrous consequences of our gaseous emissions, but once the fossil fuels are gone ...

 

 

how does that affect those who believe in re-incarnation. Does the heirarchy change?

[Moley]

how does that affect those who believe in re-incarnation. Does the heirarchy change?

I suppose that would depend on whether the notion of re-incarnation was confined to human form, or even this world

[John Orentas]

how does that affect those who believe in re-incarnation. Does the heirarchy change?

 

 

Of course it does, just hope you come back as a cockroach.

[Sir Nibble]

how does that affect those who believe in re-incarnation. Does the heirarchy change?

I shall ask Trowsers.

[Carrie]

John - As an admirer of Einstein, you will surely also know that he was vegan and saw veganism as the way to save the planet!

 

Whenever I have attempted to express my views on environmental matters on this forum, people fall back on their tired reasons for hanging on tightly to their ways of living. Justifications for doing as little as possible abound. First, there's the 'it's going to happen anyway, so what's the point' attitude. Those people are lazy, careless of others and can explain themselves one day to their grandchildren.

Then there's the defensive attack - it's easier to label myself and others as mung-bean eaters/tree-huggers, whatever, rather than have to face uncomfortable truths about our lifestyles.

It's also a cop-out to talk about politicians capitalising on climate chaos. Politicians always have and always will serve themselves. We have to take control of our own futures and stop blaming everyone except our invividual selves. If I didn't buy Nike trainers, a small child in India wouldn't have to sew them all day long for a tiny pittance - so I don't! If I fly, I contribute to the massive pollution the aviation industry produces daily - so I don't. I continue unwittingly to use and abuse the planet and the poorest people in it through thoughtless consumption, like everyone else, but I'm doing my best to change my ways.

The biggest obstacle to people being able to reverse the calamity is the apathy and excuses reflected by some on this forum. Trouble is, I can't just do nothing and unlearn what I know. Well, I've gone on enough now!

 

One last thing though - if anyone's still awake - living simply, just not needing much stuff, is a really nice way of living!