B & Q

[Richard Bustens]

B & Q have just started selling a wind generator it is expencive but has quite a high speck

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?...s=1160736735591

[Neil D]

hi,

 

I saw this yesterday at Farnborough. I think the manufacturer would have supplied it FOC to see waht busines it generated. They had their own little DVD playing very loudly advertising it!.

 

Yes wind energy is good and great, but when you add it the manufacturing process and the travelling - it uses MORE energy than anything else!. For instance, the main process hub is in Scandanavia, so imagine the cost of the lorrys to get 200+ foot towers to the uk, plus turbines, plus the foot work?.

 

People dont always think of that!.

 

Neil

[Yoda]

hi,

 

I saw this yesterday at Farnborough. I think the manufacturer would have supplied it FOC to see waht busines it generated. They had their own little DVD playing very loudly advertising it!.

 

Yes wind energy is good and great, but when you add it the manufacturing process and the travelling - it uses MORE energy than anything else!. For instance, the main process hub is in Scandanavia, so imagine the cost of the lorrys to get 200+ foot towers to the uk, plus turbines, plus the foot work?.

 

People dont always think of that!.

 

Neil

 

You would need a two hundred foot tower on the Shroppie

[John Orentas]

Looks like a great toy but at that silly price but I would like to see some independent testing. For example that 1Kw output is at very close to the maximum wind speed, and why should there be a cut-off speed at all, a well designed contraption would have a self regulating feathering or variable pitch system. I would like to know what would be a typical average output.

 

How can it reduce your Co2 emissions?

Edited October 13, 2006 by John Orentas

[David Schweizer]

I looked at one of these in our local store last week, and read all the technical information.

 

The first thing to mention is that it is enormous, the fan is over 5ft wide and the whole thing is ten feet tall. there is no way I could fit that into my garden without it being very obtrusive to both myself and my neighbours.

 

I took the figures quoted and compared the performance against my domestic electricirty usage.. 1kw (per hour I assume) sounds impressive but for how many hours per day are you actually using that amount of power? maybe two or three, Most of the time I will be using far less than that so for a few hours every day the full output will be used. What happens to the power the rest of the time?

 

The output rating of this unit is based upon the assumption that there will be a reasonable wind blowing to make it work and even more to maintain full output. I live in a fairly windy area on the top of a hill, In fact the origins of the Village name is actually "Windy Place". It is completely still today so what chance is there for calmer places?

 

I have calculated that I could generate about sixty five pounds worth of usable power from this unit in a year, that would take more than twenty years to recover the initial outlay. Given that the unit has an expected serviceable life of ten years, it is not cost effective, and that is the trouble with all these DIY power saving devices. Until the Government start offeing generous grants for alternatuive energy it will remain the white elephant it currently is.

[dor]

This is all part of the plot to make people think that windpower is a viable alternative. As pointed out elsewhere, virtually all wind and electirc solar generators use more energy in their manufacture, installation & maintenance than they will ever generate during their design life. Equally dubious, as David points out, is the economic benefit.

 

Unfortunately, I undersstand the Government has insisted on a relaxation of planning consent in the case of "personal" wind turbines, and the thought of my neighbours putting up these things doesn't bear thinking about.

 

I saw a bit of the video in B&Q, and the slick salesmanship really grates, but no doubt some people will buy one as a status symbol and dinner party subject. At £1500 a throw, they will clearly have more money than sense.

[John Orentas]

There is no reason why these things should not be produced for around £200-£300 (I have recently been trying to repair an electric scooter bought for £100 from a market stall).

 

Any capacity you are not currently using could easily be put into your immersion heater and may well supply most of your hot water. In the longer term you may be selling it back to the electric company. I like David live in a windy location and when the sums add up I might give it a go, there is talk too about giving them 'across the board' planning permission.

[blackrose]

This is all part of the plot to make people think that windpower is a viable alternative. As pointed out elsewhere, virtually all wind and electirc solar generators use more energy in their manufacture, installation & maintenance than they will ever generate during their design life.

 

I'm sorry but this sounds like something people hear somewhere & simply repeat.

 

Unless a proper life-cycle assessment of the product has been condcuted then such claims for or against are based on unvalidated assumptions. There are so many factors to consider starting from raw materials aquisition, through production (& scale of production), distribution, retail, use, product lifespan as you correctly alluded to, and final disposal, as well as in this case, the model of energy production it is being compared against.

 

These days, people tend to talk about things being "environmentally friendly" or "unfriendly" and this is fine for the average consumer. However, having spent a year doing a LCA study (on starch-based biodegradable packaging compared to a conventional petrochemical plastic), I can tell you that determining the environmental profile of even a basic product or system is far from simple and comparisons between systems are even more complex. If this work has been done on these wind turbines (or solar panels for that matter), then I stand corrected, but I have to express caution that this is the basis for the negative press.

 

There is no "plot" and wind power was never proposed as an "alternative." Instead it can viably be utilised as one component of the energy mix, comprising energy from a variety of sources.

 

As for the economic benefits of this particular wind turbine, one thing's for certain - at that price it'll take a while to get your money back!

Edited October 13, 2006 by blackrose

[DHutch]

This is all part of the plot to make people think that windpower is a viable alternative. As pointed out elsewhere, virtually all wind and electirc solar generators use more energy in their manufacture, installation & maintenance than they will ever generate during their design life.

Certainly i beleave its true for solar pannels.

- But thats not overly supprising, they put out very little juice, and take a lot of effort to make.

- However, solar still has its place where small amounts of portable power are needed.

 

Not sure about wind turbine tho.

- Obvously if there flown ten times round the world thats not going to help. But i can see why it should pay for its production cost fairly quickly.

 

 

Daniel

[Yoda]

I'm sorry but this sounds like something people hear somewhere & simply repeat. Unless a proper life-cycle assessment of the product has been condcuted then such claims for or against are based on unvalidated assumptions. There are so many factors to consider starting from raw materials aquisition, through production (& scale of production), distribution, retail, use and final disposal, as well as the energy model it is being compared against.

 

As for the economic benefits, one thing's for certain - at that price it'll take a while to get your money back!

 

I do not see any gain in having one on a house but I do see a gain with using them on boat and caravan situations. In combination with photoelectric solar panels I see a way of topping up bow thruster batteries, which some believe you don't need and then using the excess for domestic batteries. I write this tonge in cheek of course but I have seen several boats fitted with wind turbines for topping up.

[blackrose]

I do not see any gain in having one on a house but I do see a gain with using them on boat and caravan situations. In combination with photoelectric solar panels I see a way of topping up bow thruster batteries, which some believe you don't need and then using the excess for domestic batteries. I write this tonge in cheek of course but I have seen several boats fitted with wind turbines for topping up.

 

Since these things are putting out 240v does it mean going through a battery charger to top up batteries or is there another way? I like John's turbine connection to an immersion heater idea because it's direct without the losses involved in converting to 12v. But I'd only do it if the unit was much cheaper.

[DHutch]

Since these things are putting out 240v does it mean going through a battery charger to top up batteries or is there another way? I like John's turbine connection to an immersion heater idea because it's direct without the losses involved in converting to 12v. But I'd only do it if the unit was much cheaper.

You wouldnt use one of the BnQ ones on a boat.

- There designed to be wired into the natianal grid, using that as a buffer.

[John Orentas]

Saw a TV programme a while ago about this sort of stuff, to compete with nuclear power photoelectric cells would have to be produced for £1 per square metre and thousands of acres laid out in dessert type conditions around the world. I can't see them ever making much of an impact in this country with our limited hours of sunshine, yes I know they say that they will generate even in cloudy conditions but if you get 10% of maximum output you are doing well.

 

Wind power is another matter one Kilowatt for £300 every time a decent wind blows 24 hours a day that has got to be worth looking at. And it is low tech with low manufacturing and material cost.

 

As for the environmental thing, I live fairly close to the M62 motorway, when it was in it's design stage the prospect of long bridges and flyovers nearly caused riots in the streets, now 30 years down the line it is never mentioned, it could even be argued that the motorway has improved the Pennine scenery.

[dor]

I'm sorry but this sounds like something people hear somewhere & simply repeat.

 

I understand a german firm is offering wind turbines with the message that they will be "the first wind turbines to generate more power than was used in their construction"

 

Unfortunately, wind power generation is not the green wonder fuel that it is often made out to be, even in our relatively windy island. Apart from their inefficiency, the huge subsidies given to foreign firms, not to mention the environmental impact, you still need just as many conventional power stations on standby for when the wind either doesn't blow, or blows too hard.

[fuzzyduck]

seeing as this thread is turning into an alternative energy thread.

 

a couple of years ago we decided to get our electricity from Npower on their juice program.

 

Juice was sold to us as being guaranteed wind generated. I believe they achieve this by actually guaranteeing to put as much energy into the grid as their users take out.

 

all very green?

 

hmmm recently a lot of the enery suppliers put up electriicity costs blaming the cost of the fossil fuels used. at this point, if my leccy supplier uses wind power we should be laughing. But the prices of this guaranteed non fossil fuel using electriicity went up by the same amount.

 

therefore I can only assume that there is just as much oil and gas used to generate wind powered sparks as oilly, and gassy sparks.

Edited October 13, 2006 by fuzzyduck

[blackrose]

I understand a german firm is offering wind turbines with the message that they will be "the first wind turbines to generate more power than was used in their construction"

 

As this kind of technology develops it will hopefully become more efficient. You have to appreciate the decades of investment put into conventional power generation that has contributed to its efficiency. Even with an equivalent investment in renewables, that level of efficiency can't be replicated overnight.

 

However, if you took the energy balance you mention (energy consumption during production vs. energy generated) for grid energy based on coal or oil fired power stations for example, you would also have to take into account the energy required for fossil fuel extraction, transport of fuels & construction of the power station.

 

In such a energy balance comparison, power stations burning fossil fuels have an advantage over renewables because the energy is stored in carbon fossil reserves laid down over millennia which are there for the taking. However, these reserves are running out, and if the energy value of these burned finite resources is included in the equation, you may find that overall a power station also generates less energy than used in its construction, maintainence and operation.

 

Unfortunately, wind power generation is not the green wonder fuel that it is often made out to be, even in our relatively windy island.

 

Yes, that's right, there is no wonder fuel be it renewable, fossil or nuclear - they all have their problems and attributes, and to varying degrees make up the energy mix as I explained earlier. The key is establishing the appropriate levels in that balance, not discounting any one form of energy generation out of hand.

Edited October 14, 2006 by blackrose

[arlow11]

these are huge surely you would need planning permission also the specs say there

Noise, Generator System: 52 dBA 5m behind turbine @ 7m/s gusting

Noise, Generator System: 33 dBA 5m behind turbine @ 5m/s gusting

 

i have no idea how loud that is but if they label it ,it must be

Edited October 13, 2006 by arlow11

[David Schweizer]

 

 

Any capacity you are not currently using could easily be put into your immersion heater and may well supply most of your hot water.

Immersion heaters and water heating elements are one of the few Electrical devices that I do understand, and your example whilst logical in theory is not really viable.

 

A standard immersion heater require 3kw of power to operate, so you will either need three turbines, or will need to draw the other two killowats from the National Grid. Furthermore a 27" immersion heater will heat an insulated 30 gallon tank from cold to 65 degrees in less than an hour, so it is hardly an impressive solution to capturing overgeneration at times of low consupmption.

Edited October 13, 2006 by David Schweizer

[ChrisPy]

Immersion heaters and water heating elements are one of the few Electrical devices that I do understand, and your example whilst logical in theory is not really viable.

 

A standard immersion heater require 3kw of power to operate, so you will either need three turbines, or will need to draw the other two killowats from the National Grid. Furthermore a 27" immersion heater will heat an insulated 30 gallon tank from cold to 65 degrees in less than an hour, so it is hardly an impressive solution to capturing overgeneration at times of low consupmption.

A boat immersion heater is normally about 1KW.

Any power that goes to the immersion is turned into heating the water.

And you've proved the point....... if you have a smaller immersion it will happily add heat in a gradual manner to the tank for hours until the thermostat cuts out, and if it is 1KW it will take about 3hrs, everything else being equal.

Edited October 14, 2006 by chris polley

[NB Willawaw]

1. This product is generating at DC and then inverting up to 230V mains.

What I don't understand at present is how the "Plug and Save" unit patches this supply into the domestic supply. As it is low power compared to the incoming mains, it cannot simply be switched I would have thought, unless it samples the total consumption of the house and only switches in when the demand is less than its output ??? alternatively, it would have to synchronise its AC waveform with that of the mains which I don't think it will do for the price.

 

2. The price is expensive but does include installation - they do not allow you to self install - presumerably due to the risk of the thing falling off the wall and decapitating somebody.

I presume the price will come down when there are a few makers offering similar products - if there is a demand out there, the price will definitely drop as it does with every other mass-consumer product.

 

3. As I understand it, you still need planning permission at present. They are lobbying government to change this. These units are quite large and although not a problem if you live in a detached farmhouse, can you imagine a row of terraced houses all with these whirring away ???

[John Orentas]

The problem with such products and technologies they are all done on a 'get rich quick basis'. As soon as someone manages to get a few amps into a battery then added value comes into it, develop a load of a electronics and plug it into your mains, sell the spare power to the grid. Before you know it the price has gone through the roof and everyone has lost interest.

 

Do you remember during the 70's there was a lot of interest in developing a new generation of low cost airships. "New materials are available for the gas bags and envelopes", "helium is now cheap and available", "engines are more powerful cheap and lightweight". Ideal for logging operations and goods carrying in the third world, costs a fraction of that of conventional aircraft no airfields or runways required etc. etc.

 

A couple of very promising prototypes were built and they toured round looking for interested parties to develop them. Then what.-

 

A new company was formed, Airship Industries. A board of directors costing a million a year. Very expensive premises were built, they went to Porche to develop a brand new engine to power it, another company began to develop carbon fibre and other exotic materials to build the structures.

 

They began looking for customers for their new £3 million pound airship. And that was the end of that.

 

Had they designed an aluminium airframe, used cheap existing piston engines and bought a back street factory, airships may well be in manufacture today.

Edited October 14, 2006 by John Orentas

[Richard Bustens]

The one in our B&Qis not a lot bigger than the ones you see on boats, and according to the spec sheet you just feed it into the ring main through a fused spur also there is a goverment grant towards the cost of the unit but it does not say how much, or if it will be available for a boat.

It does say that it needs a 6 w supply to it to energise it so it will have to be fed from an inverter on the boat all in all anyone with a high dependance on electric like me would find this usfull.

[NB Willawaw]

I can't see the B+Q model being of any value on a boat. They probably wouldn't fit it for you on a boat and you arre not allowed to fit your own ??

Its very expensive, would need a substantial mounting arrangement and it generates mains

on a fickle basis. What would you run off it ?

If we are talking boats, you would be better off with a large DC one (ours is a 400W 12V unit with a 46 inch rotor diameter). It charges the batteries directly without the inefficency of a DC-AC conversion and will run the fridge on windy days and trickle charge the batteries on calmer days. I can't remember the exact cost but it was a fraction of the B+Q one.

[Yoda]

1. This product is generating at DC and then inverting up to 230V mains.

What I don't understand at present is how the "Plug and Save" unit patches this supply into the domestic supply. As it is low power compared to the incoming mains, it cannot simply be switched I would have thought, unless it samples the total consumption of the house and only switches in when the demand is less than its output ??? alternatively, it would have to synchronise its AC waveform with that of the mains which I don't think it will do for the price.

 

2. The price is expensive but does include installation - they do not allow you to self install - presumerably due to the risk of the thing falling off the wall and decapitating somebody.

I presume the price will come down when there are a few makers offering similar products - if there is a demand out there, the price will definitely drop as it does with every other mass-consumer product.

 

3. As I understand it, you still need planning permission at present. They are lobbying government to change this. These units are quite large and although not a problem if you live in a detached farmhouse, can you imagine a row of terraced houses all with these whirring away ???

 

I think it might synchronise by being conected to the mains power.

[David Schweizer]

A boat immersion heater is normally about 1KW.

Any power that goes to the immersion is turned into heating the water.

And you've proved the point....... if you have a smaller immersion it will happily add heat in a gradual manner to the tank for hours until the thermostat cuts out, and if it is 1KW it will take about 3hrs, everything else being equal.

This unit is designed for a house not a boat, and immersion heaters fitted to domestic systems are invariably 3kw. I worked in the industry for a number of years, and whilst we made lower consumption elements they were very small and designed to heat water in small vessels such as kettles and wall mounted water heaters, they were certainly too small and underpowered for a domestic hot water tank.

 

An immesion heater running on current of 1kw (or less most of the time) is unlikely to heat a decent sized Domestic Tank full of water to 65 degrees, before some of it was being drawn off for consumption. I suppose overnight it might reach design temperature, but even so the maximum saving would only be equivalent to the cost of 3kw in every 24 hour period, amounting to an annual saving of about £100 - and that depends upon there being a fairly stiff wind blowing all night. Not really very impresive for a unit that costs £1500 with a life expectancy of 10 years,

 

By the way it is strill very calm outside in this "windy place" that I live, so that would be two days when the turbine would not be producing any electricity.

Edited October 14, 2006 by David Schweizer