CaRT REsidential Moorings at "Buy It Now" Price

[alan_fincher]

These are not cheap, but drawing attention to anybody who has not seen......

 

** Willow Wren Moorings, West London **

 

12 x berths will be advertised for Buy It Now on Monday 22nd October at 2pm. All berths are priced at £5000 per year.

 

The berths available are 1 x leisure, 7 x residential and 4 x widebeam residential.

 

I have no idea what their rationale is for pricing non-residential at the same level at residential, nor why the wide-beam ones are same fixed price as narrow beam ones.

 

Details here, if I can get link to work.

[Proper Job]

31% of all CC'ers will want one

[Guest]

 

I have no idea what their rationale is for pricing non-residential at the same level at residential, nor why the wide-beam ones are same fixed price as narrow beam ones.

 

 

That is very curious - while you generally don't pay more for a WB on an on line mooring for obvious reasons on a pontoon set up that is curious. And as for the leisure v resi issue -

 

ed - actually all 11 (not 12) on there are just resi. the leisure one is not on that link.

Edited October 23, 2012 by The Dog House

[alan_fincher]

31% of all CC'ers will want one

Not as expensive as this one, though....

 

Linky

[George94]

Not cheap, and not a particularly lovely location. But a rare opportunity for bargees and wide-beamers.

[Scooby]

Not cheap, and not a particularly lovely location. But a rare opportunity for bargees and wide-beamers.

 

 

If they halved the price i wouldnt want it. No parking and its not a nice place to live.

[bowten]

But it is London.

[tafelberg]

My kids would love it it's very close to Toys'R'Us and Tesco's at Bulls bridge, it's tempting because where I am now is now overlooked by houses. Used to be quite quiet. To be honest now I'm on my own it does seem quite inviting.

Edited October 25, 2012 by tafelberg

[Dekazer]

It's actually pretty cheap compared to the local prices. I've only passed by boat or towpath, so it'd be worth visiting to check out the facilities. You're far away enough from towpath scrotes and you have three cruising directions to choose from. It might become a nice community and you've got the dry dock right next door. I'd say go and visit if you're even considering it

[Dekazer]

12 of these went on sale on 22nd October, and there are still 11 available, based on the email I just received from C&RT:

 

Dear Customer,

 

Further to your registered interest in long term moorings at Willow Wren, please be advised that there are 11 residential berths available on the www.crtmoorings.com websites Buy It Now system.

 

There are seven 22 metre berths available (three widebeam, four narrowbeam) and four 19.5 metre berths (one widebeam, three narrowbeam). All berths are £5000 per year.

 

Details on the Buy It Now system and how it works can be viewed at https://www.crtmoorings.com/tutorial/index.php but please do let me know if you have any questions about the system.

[tafelberg]

Well apparently they want a £600 deposit which is non-refundable, so if you fail their credit check say good bye to your £600.00 !

[Chris Pink]

Run that past me one more time; you give them £600 and then they decide whether you are creditworthy? And if they say no, there doesn't have to be a reason, they keep the money?

 

This is legal?

 

Who, in their right mind, would enter into a deal like that?

 

Gosh.

 

Going like hot cakes I see.

[alan_fincher]

Well apparently they want a £600 deposit which is non-refundable, so if you fail their credit check say good bye to your £600.00 !

 

Run that past me one more time; you give them £600 and then they decide whether you are creditworthy? And if they say no, there doesn't have to be a reason, they keep the money?

 

This is legal?

 

Who, in their right mind, would enter into a deal like that?

 

Gosh.

 

Going like hot cakes I see.

 

I can see nothing to that effect in the mooring details, or the terms and condition document linked to it.

 

I can't see that they could have any legal basis for this, if it is not clearly spelled out to you when bidding.

 

Where are you getting that information from Paul ? - Can you provide a link to it ?

[Chris Pink]

Well apparently they want a £600 deposit which is non-refundable, so if you fail their credit check say good bye to your £600.00 !

 

You have looked into getting one. Is this real? You've read the terms?

[PiRSqwared]

You have looked into getting one. Is this real? You've read the terms?

Apparently not

 

My link

[alan_fincher]

No mention of any non-refundable £600 here......

 

payment Options & Other Important Information

 

5. Credit worthiness

By signing The Form you are agreeing to pay for the mooring by the option selected by you. We reserve the right to carry out an independent credit check that you must pass before we complete the Mooring Agreement.

[Chris Pink]

Must admit I'm watching paint dry so the thrill of reading CRT t and cs hasn't seduced me.

 

Do you pay anything upfront when you 'buy it now' ? If so do they give it back if they do a credit check? Doesn't a credit check exclude any one liveaboard sans mooring? And why a credit check? For a licence?

[MtB]

Must admit I'm watching paint dry so the thrill of reading CRT t and cs hasn't seduced me.

 

Do you pay anything upfront when you 'buy it now' ? If so do they give it back if they do a credit check? Doesn't a credit check exclude any one liveaboard sans mooring? And why a credit check? For a licence?

 

A credit check is prudent as these are residential moorings. Once someone moves on, if they never pay a penny in rent it will take CRT a couple of years and a few tens of £k getting them evicted so a credit check will usually show up someone with a track record of being unable to succesfully organise their finances (my euphemism).

 

The problem with credit checking though, is that plenty of honourable CCers previously with no fixed abode will also fail a credit check due to them having no credit record.

[tafelberg]

I have it on an email about the £600

 

 

If for whatever reason you fail to secure the mooring, such as reasons below (taken from the auction website) or perhaps like you mentioned before that you have an IVA and might not pass a credit check then this would incur 5% of the buy it now price.

 

 

We will not accept your offer if:

 

• you fail to satisfy our requirements set out in the Buy It Now Terms and Conditions for Making an Offer, or
• you satisfy our requirements set out in the Buy It Now Terms and Conditions for Making an Offer but your first payment defaults.
• you fail to return the application forms by the stated deadline.

In these circumstances, we will let you know the reason(s) and invoice you for 5% of the Buy It Now Mooring Fee which you authorised us to do when submitting your offer. The vacancy will then be relisted

 

 

(There was other stuff but it's personal)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

I have it on an email about the £600

 

 

If for whatever reason you fail to secure the mooring, such as reasons below (taken from the auction website) or perhaps like you mentioned before that you have an IVA and might not pass a credit check then this would incur 5% of the buy it now price.

 

Well I still think if it is not laid out when you bid, they would find anything hard to enforce.

 

Question though.....

 

Buy it now price = £5000

 

5% of £5000 = £250

 

So based on the email you are quoting why £600, not £250 ??

[Duchess Omnium]

The link you want is https://www.crtmoorings.com/media/pdf/Auctions-Terms-and-Conditions-for-Bidding.pdf . They ask for a 5% default fee in all auctions, but I am pretty sure it is 5% of one year (£5000) not the full 3 year agreement price. So if you default you will have to pay £250. My recollection of when I bid on my mooring is that you have to give them a credit card and preauthorise this amount, but I can't quite remember.

 

Clause 2.20 gives a list of ways you can default -- most of which are you don't have a license, or your first payment bounces etc. One of the clauses is that you fail an independant credit check,, if they decide to ask for one. My guess is if you failed they would not hold your £250, but they might refuse you the mooring. I know that they don't necessarily ask for a credit check.

[Chris Pink]

Well I still think if it is not laid out when you bid, they would find anything hard to enforce.

 

Question though.....

 

Buy it now price = £5000

 

5% of £5000 = £250

 

So based on the email you are quoting why £600, not £250 ??

 

Oh, that's ok then it's only £250, that's nothing. I spend that down the pub every day.

 

It appears then Alan that you, putative boaters representative see nothing wrong in CRT demanding a boater gamble £250 on the caprice of a credit reference agency. After all they're never wrong and don't pay any attention to addresses and others at that address or electoral rolls.

 

 

The Duchess' guess is not enough. Unless specifically stated that in the refusal to allocate the mooring - for whatever reason - the deposit is returned I contend this is corrupt. Unfortunately it's probably not illegal.

[alan_fincher]

It appears then Alan that you, putative boaters representative see nothing wrong in CRT demanding a boater gamble £250 on the caprice of a credit reference agency. After all they're never wrong and don't pay any attention to addresses and others at that address or electoral rolls.

I don't see why you think I have said it is OK Chris ? Perhaps you would like to demonstrate where I did ?

 

No, I don't think it is OK, but I like to operate off off facts, rather than random statements where I have not seen evidence to support it.

 

As it happens Tafelberg mentioned forfeiting up to £600, but I have still yet to see the evidence of CRT stating that amount. Unless someone can put on the table why it is £600, I still don't get it.

 

In general, for the "proper" auctions, I don't find CRT taking 5% of an auction bid price where someone bids, and then defaults for reasons of their own making that unreasonable. There is a cost to CRT of being messed about, and not getting the revenue on the mooring from the date that they might have done, had a valid bidder got it instead. (Although I admit that argument doesn't stack up here, as there hardly seems to be a rush of people buying these moorings at the "buy it now" price they are charging!....)

 

If you read, I have said based on the T&C's you sign up to when bidding, I think CRT would find it hard to enforce such a charge, (in the case of a "failed" credit check). IMO, the credit check thing seems a bit spurious anyway - they are selling you an ongoing service, for which you usually pay on a monthly basis, and presumably if you failed to do so, they can take action to chuck you off the mooring. It is hardly like they are selling you £5000 of "product" up front that you can do a bunk with, without having paid for it.

 

I really don't understand why every so often you seem to think I'm an ally of BW/CRT when they have some dodgy policy like this - I can assure you I am not!

Edited November 6, 2012 by alan_fincher

[Chris Pink]

I don't see a problem with a deposit. But if they refuse the mooring for any reason they should return it.

 

It is not enough to rely on it being unenforceable. They don't have to enforce anything. All CRT have to do is refuse to give it back v

 

The £250 is irrelevant if, as appears, this applies to all moorings.

[alan_fincher]

Actually I think Duchess Omnium's regferences to clause 2.20 is not the bit from the T&Cs they actually meant.....

 

Relevant bits seem to be......

 

2.31 If we fail to make the Mooring available to you we shall return to you any monies paid by you for the Mooring Vacancy unless the reason for failing to make the Mooring available is the fact that you have not met the criteria set out in Clause 2.27 above in which case we will charge you the Authorised Sum in accordance with Clause 2.27 above.

 

and

 

2.27 Any offer by you for the Mooring Vacancy is conditional upon you satisfying The Trust of the following:

(a) that (if you already own a boat) you have a valid and up-to-date Canal & River Trust Licence and Boat Safety Certificate and that your Boat is fit for navigation on any waterway where it is intended to be used;

( that you:

(i) do not owe The Trust any money for any reason including, without limitation, mooring fees, licence fees, removal costs, damages or other associated costs; or

(ii) have not in the past repeatedly failed to meet agreed payment terms to which we have drawn your attention;

© that you have:

(i) not breached any of our licence or mooring terms and conditions, site rules, navigation rules, relevant Acts or Bye-Laws and regulations; or

(ii) breached our licence or mooring terms and conditions, site rules, navigation rules, relevant Acts or Bye-Laws and regulations but have remedied that breach to The Trust’s satisfaction; or

(iii) not repeatedly breached and remedied our licence or mooring terms and conditions, site rules, navigation rules, relevant Acts or Bye-Laws and regulations;

(d) that we have not, at any time in the last five (5) years, removed your Boat from our waterways or property under any statutory powers or in accordance with a court order;

(e) that, where we believe it is reasonable to do so, you have passed an independent credit check;

(f) that your Boat fits the dimensions of the Mooring Vacancy, the Mooring Site and our waterways;

(g) that, if defined in the local rules (site rules) for the Mooring, your Boat is suitable for the Mooring and, if specified, you must send us a current photograph of your Boat for our approval with your Mooring Application Form;

(h) that you correctly complete and return the Mooring Application Form to The Trust as soon as possible and in any event so that it arrives within fourteen (14) days of the Closing Date (or that, if you are the bidder who offered the next highest Bid Price, you correctly complete and return the Mooring Application Form to The Trust as soon as possible and in any event so that it arrives within seven (7) days of you re-opening your offer);

(i) that your first payment of the Mooring Fee arrives with the Mooring Application Form within fourteen (14) days of the Closing Date (in accordance with the payment options available, details of which are set out in Schedule 1 to this Agreement).

 

As far as I can see, the only one in that list where the person bidding might not be unaware that they are in danger of not getting their 5% back is the passing of a credit check.

 

I agree with you that it seems unreasonable for CRT to retain the 5% in such a case, because I don't think the bidder has much control over that situation, and, as you say such checks hardly have a reputation for always being accurate.

 

I can't immediately see any other cases in section 2.27 where I think CRT would be unreasonable in making you forfeit it. Part of the bidding process is that you agree to these rules before you bid, so if you know you fail any of their tests, (ignoring the credit check issue, for the moment!), and still choose to, I would argue it is a risk you take.

 

The £250 is irrelevant if, as appears, this applies to all moorings.

??????

 

All I'm trying to establish is that the sum is 5% of the sum bid for a year's mooring, and, if so, where £600 came from.

 

I still don't understand the £600!