Long term rental & Housing Benefit

[greenfingers]

Hello all, I am new to the canals and i am just about to take a 1yr rental of a 45' tradition narrowboat. I have read a lot of things regarding housing benefit and renting/owning a boat and I apologies if people have already answered this else where.

I have always been aware that it is posible to claim HB for moorings and I know there is confusion about the covering of other costs (Licence e.t.c) with people saying it possible and others saying its not.

My question and all I need to know and cant get to the bottom of is... Can you claim HB to cover the rent of a narrowboat for a 1yr period???

 

Now through my research I have found 1 person who is renting there boat to someone who has in thiory been accepted to receve HB to cover the whole cost of there monthly rent (£400) although there payments have not started yet.

I asked the landlord of the boat and they said its fine and people have done it before. I then phoned the HB and asked for myself, I said 'I am renting a narrowboat on a 1 year lease and would it be possible to claim HB' the lady at HB said 'Yes, as long as there is a tenancy agreement, then it is the same as private rented accomadation on land'

 

IS THIS TRUE???

 

The person I know who is renting and the person who rented before them were both CC's and I would be too.

 

Anyone know anymore on this??

 

Many thanks and sorry if I posted in the wrong place or topic has already been answered.

[cotswoldsman]

I would say if you had a 1 year Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement you would be able to claim HB. It is this document that is used by the Benefits Office not the type of property.

[richardf]

Hello all, I am new to the canals and i am just about to take a 1yr rental of a 45' tradition narrowboat. I have read a lot of things regarding housing benefit and renting/owning a boat and I apologies if people have already answered this else where.

I have always been aware that it is posible to claim HB for moorings and I know there is confusion about the covering of other costs (Licence e.t.c) with people saying it possible and others saying its not.

My question and all I need to know and cant get to the bottom of is... Can you claim HB to cover the rent of a narrowboat for a 1yr period???

 

Now through my research I have found 1 person who is renting there boat to someone who has in thiory been accepted to receve HB to cover the whole cost of there monthly rent (£400) although there payments have not started yet.

I asked the landlord of the boat and they said its fine and people have done it before. I then phoned the HB and asked for myself, I said 'I am renting a narrowboat on a 1 year lease and would it be possible to claim HB' the lady at HB said 'Yes, as long as there is a tenancy agreement, then it is the same as private rented accomadation on land'

 

IS THIS TRUE???

 

The person I know who is renting and the person who rented before them were both CC's and I would be too.

 

Anyone know anymore on this??

 

Many thanks and sorry if I posted in the wrong place or topic has already been answered.

 

Why would you need a mooring if you were a continuous cruiser?

[greenfingers]

I would say if you had a 1 year Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement you would be able to claim HB. It is this document that is used by the Benefits Office not the type of property.

 

Many thanks, No problems with CC's then?? Anyone else done it and had any problems

[cotswoldsman]

Why would you need a mooring if you were a continuous cruiser?

 

The question I think was about paying the rent on the boat not the mooring. Having said that I do know CCers with moorings.

 

Many thanks, No problems with CC's then?? Anyone else done it and had any problems

 

I do think CCing would be a problem as it is the Council that pays the HB and then claims it back from Government ( I wait to be corrected but I think that is how it works) so if you were to CC you would have to stay in that Council Area

[Higgs]

I do think CCing would be a problem as it is the Council that pays the HB and then claims it back from Government ( I wait to be corrected but I think that is how it works) so if you were to CC you would have to stay in that Council Area

 

My understanding is that housing benefit is attached to an area controlled by a specific housing authority. For the need to claim on a mooring, it is easy to establish the housing authority for that area. Not so sure about CC.

[davidc]

But does not the tenancy agreement have to come with a permanent address for the council to process it.

[cotswoldsman]

But does not the tenancy agreement have to come with a permanent address for the council to process it.

 

I am no expert I am sure Smelly will be able to give the answer to that, as the money is paid direct into a bank account I guess for the purpose of The Tenancy Agreement the address could be the present location and then you just give a postal address for purpose of communication.

[Higgs]

But does not the tenancy agreement have to come with a permanent address for the council to process it.

 

I live in a marina, not on a residential mooring, but indefinite term visitor. It is accepted that this is my home. If I decide to leave the marina, I think the benefit would stop.

 

It sounds more complicated to also have a rent on top of the mooring fees. And, even more complicated if it's rent on a CC'ing boat, without a mooring.

 

I can obviously leave the marina and cruise a while, in a holiday sense. I'm not sure if it would be deemed correct to claim benefit and CC. I am inclined to think not. But....??

Edited August 29, 2012 by Higgs

[cotswoldsman]

I live in a marina, not on a residential mooring, but indefinite term visitor. It is accepted that this is my home. If I decide to leave the marina, I think the benefit would stop.

 

It sounds more complicated to also have a rent on top of the mooring fees. And, even more complicated if it's rent on a CC'ing boat, without a mooring.

 

I can obviously leave the marina and cruise a while, in a holiday sense. I'm not sure if it would be deemed correct to claim benefit and CC. I am inclined to think not. But....??

 

I guess it would depend on what basis someone is claiming HB

[Higgs]

I guess it would depend on what basis someone is claiming HB

 

My postal address is different to my 'residential' location. JSA is paid according to postal address (C/o). Housing benefit is paid according to dwelling location. I'm just doubtful that a roaming application of HB is feasable. I don't know, so it needs Smelly.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Higgs

[PhilR]

I guess it would depend on what basis someone is claiming HB

 

Presumably the OP is seeking to claim HB for continuous cruising? I reckon that is impossible if he is truthful with his application to the local authority.

[Rich]

 

I can obviously leave the marina and cruise a while, in a holiday sense.

 

Thirteen weeks in fact. You can then return to your mooring, spend one night there and then go off for another thirteen weeks. Might save hassle if you tell them before you go.

 

If you are not claiming HB anywhere you can also claim HB for the licence whilst cruising through a council's area. You do not have to have a mooring. The benefit ceases when you inform them that you have left their area.

 

Richard

[Higgs]

The benefit ceases when you inform them that you have left their area.

Richard

 

This is something that I wouldn't want to keep repeating. An 'area' wouldn't include a whole county, I presume, but an housing authority area. Several in each county.

[dor]

I presume that renting a boat is the same as hiring one. Is the boat you are renting insured as a hire boat? Does it have a commercial licence? Does it have the higher standard of BSC needed for a hire boat? Is the hirer declaring the rental income?

 

Just a thought.

[greenfingers]

Many thanks to everyone. So it is seeming like in theory its posible but only if you stay within your local councils area?? and is obviously a bit of a grey area. I will try to find out what the person that I met had to enter on his HB forms (with regards to address and things) and I guess I just have to put in an application myself and see if it is successful.

I would like to hear what this so called 'Smelly' has to say on the matter

 

Is it alright to PM him or will he stumble across this post??

 

I presume that renting a boat is the same as hiring one. Is the boat you are renting insured as a hire boat? Does it have a commercial licence? Does it have the higher standard of BSC needed for a hire boat? Is the hirer declaring the rental income?

 

Just a thought.

 

Not sure on this one, I am guessing legally it would have to be licenced and insured as a hire boat but I don't think that most people that rent there boat out for a year or 2 (and to someone they know) bother to do this, whether that affects the claim for HB I also don't klnow and would like to if anyone does??

[Higgs]

I would like to hear what this so called 'Smelly' has to say on the matter

Is it alright to PM him or will he stumble across this post??

 

Smelly is helpful, but I'd probably wait for a response. Having said that, what you do is your business.

[greenfingers]

Smelly is helpful, but I'd probably wait for a response. Having said that, what you do is your business.

 

I wait

[Smelly]

Indeed you do... HB is payable for the aggregate of any "rent" moorings and licence fees, the total is subject to a Rent Officer's assessment rather than the Local Housing Allowance. Are you between 25 & 35? Your age may affect the maximum payable and knowing the means that the recent amendments adopted to amend the Single Room Rent age threshold there may be a loophole in the old RO rules.

 

Tenancies do not, in law, apply to boats as tenancy law applies to "dwelling houses" and despite the bleeding obvious terminological issues there is recent case law that confirms a boat is not such a creature.. However Local Authorities need evidence of the rent liability (it's the liability that attracts HB entitlement) and an AST form is as good a place as any to put some signatures in a place and form that a decision maker can comprehend. Just don't expect the same protection afforded to people in bricks and mortar.

 

The ideal would be a hire or leasehold agreement as the enforceability of terms of contract is one of the issues that DM's are directed to look at when deciding contrivance issues, however I've seen a lot of boaty HB claimants in my time and contrivance has never, in my experience arisen as an issue. From the owner's perspective the liability arises in common law and is enforceable in equity

.

For authority... reg 2 HB Regulations defines mooring fees as"rent", R(H) 9/08 accepted licence fees as the same; falling within a catch all provision at the end of reg 2. The money paid in respect of actually occupying the boat was discussed in a case about some CCers in Stratford, (I can't remember the reference but the decision is on here verbatim somewhere) and is covered as "rent" to although I can't remember the details off the t top of my head.

 

The same decision discussed the "local connection" discussed above. In theory there is authority for an Authority to pay HB for a boat outside their area; in practice they don't and the Legal fees involved in clarifying what is currently murky water would outweigh the public interest; it wouldn't attract Legal Aid hence it'd need to be a user group or MP with a vested interest that takes the appropriate action.

 

For Fullness, a person is treated as liable for rent during the first 13 weeks absence from the dwelling, that does not apply to the LA area; that question has never been tested in law. Pedants out there will be keen to know that a dwelling for HB isn't the same as forCouncil Tax, much as a narrowboat is a "houseboat" for HB purposes, whatever the 71 BWA might say about it.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Smelly

[Smelly]

But does not the tenancy agreement have to come with a permanent address for the council to process it.

 

Local Authorities have a much broader discretion than Jobcentre Plus to require whatever information they think they need to decide a claim. A permanent address is not prescribed information however I wouldn't want to be the person waiting for their money for a year or more while they argue the toss. If you're really bothered compare the consolidated form of regulation 4 Social Security (Claims and Payments) Regulation s 1987 with reg 104 Housing Benefit regs 2006.

 

I really should go and grab my book now shouldn't I?

Edited August 29, 2012 by Smelly

[Cosmic]

There's an article linking to some relevant decisions here. I think one of them is the one from Stratford that Smelly was referring to.

[Smelly]

Nice one Cosmic... ironically the one case I didn't refer to; the Bromsgrove one, was a friend of mine. Now sadly departed.

 

I like the idea of including BSS and have encouraged claims for insurance too.. It'd be nice to know whether that encouragement was a factor but I doubt I'll find out somehow.

[greenfingers]

Thank you so much smelly, really useful readings. I am 25 so would only qualify for a low rate (and in time maybe nothin!!) but any help with rent would be great.

 

I checked with the person I mentioned previous and he said he has recived his letter to say he has been awarded HB for renting as a CC and that he was awarded £58 per week. He is 35 and so was expecting a higher amount per week but said he wasnt sure if that was to do with his last years earnings as he is self employed, he will chase it up on friday and I will let you know the outcome of both mine and his claims.

Many thanks again folks

 

Only just read the last 2 posts, cosmic many thanks for the link.

Edited August 30, 2012 by greenfingers

[Blue Haired Girl]

This was super helpful for me

 

I've got various downloads of regs from this and that, ready for my interview in Rugeley on Thursday.

 

I'll write in what happens