Charging efficiency

[smileypete]

 

My mate just a bought a Squier guitar. At £52 it was significantly cheaper than my 1959 Les Paul. It's also crap.

Do you enjoy alienating potential customers?

 

For telling when batt is fully charged, I think you'll have to agree than a £10 ammeter is significantly better than a £150 Smartgauge.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

Do you enjoy alienating potential customers?

 

For telling when batt is fully charged, I think you'll have to agree than a £10 ammeter is significantly better than a £150 Smartgauge.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

1. I have no potential customers. I am an employee.

 

2. Top Cat is not a potential customer. He has a battery meter he is happy with and has no intention of buyng another one.

 

3. If someone is alienated by the reality that isn't my problem.

 

4. A £10 ammeter will not tell one when a battery is fully charged. It will do so if you combine it with a voltmeter. It is also useless at telling one when a battery is at anything other than fully charged without also combining it with a load of human knowledge.

 

5. What makes you think I have any less right to take the piss on here than anyone else? You included?

[Evo]

Another interesting thread that has convinced me I'm doing the right thing.

 

I have elected to fit a SmartGuage and a seperate ammeter to my mates boat. He MUST know accurately what state his batteries are in because he is useless at understanding what appliances are using what and performing regular charge regimes without. I must fit something to try and show them each individual appliances power consumption to give them an appreciation of why sometimes their batteries need charging more often and for longer.

 

He'll be happy as a pig in shit when he knows that its the Fridge, Iron, hairdrier, and washing machine killing his batteries, They will both be really shocked when they see what they are consumming and understand how long it takes to put that back.

 

They both think its the telly and the LED lights cos they are on the longest.

[Gibbo]

I have elected to fit a SmartGuage and a seperate ammeter to my mates boat.

 

At the present time I still think that is the absolute best possible combination.

[Mick_B]

Or, if you're rich, wait for the new one which has even more buggering and farting around in it

Hmmmm... sounds like the price is going to make it out of some peoples range.

[Gibbo]

Hmmmm... sounds like the price is going to make it out of some peoples range.

 

Well it isn't going to be cheap. But it certainly isn't going to be anything like the most expensive one around.

[smileypete]

1. I have no potential customers. I am an employee.

Well, do you care whether anyone on here buys the current Smartgauge or the next version or not?

 

Are you quite happy if they can get by just fine with an ammeter and voltmeter?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[WotEver]

Well, do you care whether anyone on here buys the current Smartgauge or the next version or not?

 

Are you quite happy if they can get by just fine with an ammeter and voltmeter?

 

cheers,

Pete.

Surely those folk who can get by happily with just a volmeter and ammeter aren't the target market for either Smartgauge?

 

Tony

[Gibbo]

Are you quite happy if they can get by just fine with an ammeter and voltmeter?

 

Absolutely yes. I have never, in all my life, tried to sell anything to someone who doesn't really need one. There are many posters on here will confirm this.

 

Some posters have even commented about how difficult I used to make it to buy one by asking lots of questions and making sure they actually needed one before taking their money.

 

I might not have an Aston Martin but I sleep soundly at night.

[Mick_B]

Absolutely yes. I have never, in all my life, tried to sell anything to someone who doesn't really need one. There are many posters on here will confirm this.

 

Some posters have even commented about how difficult I used to make it to buy one by asking lots of questions and making sure they actually needed one before taking their money.

 

I might not have an Aston Martin but I sleep soundly at night.

 

Have a greenie...

[smileypete]

Surely those folk who can get by happily with just a volmeter and ammeter aren't the target market for either Smartgauge?

Don't mind what people do, but I'd suggest trying a £5ish voltmeter and £10 ammeter, if it doesn't work out just keep the ammeter and buy a Smartgauge to go with it.

 

If they can get by just fine either way, that's great.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Gibbo]

Don't mind what people do, but I'd suggest trying a £5ish voltmeter and £10 ammeter...

 

Pete

 

Not everyone is skint and/or obsessed with getting the last scrap of value out of every few pennies. The whole world isn't like that. You might be, but everyone else isn't. Some people buy things simply because they want to. To a lot of people 150 quid is absolutely nothing and they'll spend that amount every day on clothes, or coffee, or vintage wine.

[Evo]

This is the first SmartGauge I've bought...

 

SmileyPete, the people I've bought it for allready have a fancy digital voltmeter, me adding an ammeter to that would of made absolutely no difference at all.

 

 

Now the chap will no, NEVER less than this %SOC please, and preferably CHARGE ME when this %SOC. SIMPLEZZZ

 

He will respond to a percentage because he knows what that means - 12.4 volts against 12.6 volts means absolutely sod all to him and not alot to me to be honest.

 

Hopefully he'll get alot more than 18months out of a set of 4 110's and more importantly his stress over tellies and fridges swithching off will be much relieved.

[WotEver]

... the people I've bought it for allready have a fancy digital voltmeter, me adding an ammeter to that would of made absolutely no difference at all.

 

Now the chap will know, NEVER less than this %SOC please, and preferably CHARGE ME when this %SOC. SIMPLEZZZ

 

He will respond to a percentage because he knows what that means - 12.4 volts against 12.6 volts means absolutely sod all to him and not alot to me to be honest.

And that is precisely the kind of person for whom Gibbo designed the thing.

 

Tony

[Gibbo]

And that is precisely the kind of person for whom Gibbo designed the thing.

 

Absolutely. I have never said anything different (though some people seem to want me to have said something different).

 

The website states...

 

 

 

Absolutely ideal for fleet vehicles, hire boats, emergency vehicles and any installation where the operator has got better things to do than spend months learning about batteries, installations and how to interpret the sometimes overly complicated displays on other types of battery monitors.

 

 

It goes on to state...

 

 

A voltmeter can be a very useful piece of equipment. But it actually requires some very extensive knowledge on behalf of the operator and almost continual monitoring of the battery voltage in order to translate this information into an indiciation of state of charge.

 

If the operator posesses this knowledge and is prepared to sit and watch the voltmeter all day then they probably do not require a SmartGauge.

 

 

And further...

 

 

If the operator loves to continually fiddle with the meter, resynchronise it's counters, check the batteries, measure, calculate and set Peukert's exponent then the operator probably will not require a SmartGauge.

 

 

How much clearer could I have been?

 

It wasn't designed for battery experts. Not everyone is a battery expert. It was designed for people who are not battery experts.

 

 

Broken finger edit.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gibbo

[Evo]

What I'm hoping is going to happen is that they will become alot more interested in the state of their batteries because they now understand more about whats going on.

Along the lines of:_

 

"Batteries are 75%, I'll run the engine for an hour and get some hot water aswell",

"I want to do 20mins ironing, will I need the genny"

 

Even down to this whilst sitting watching telly in the evening..!!!

"What percent are the batteries", "Why..!!", "I dunno, just curious thats all".

[smileypete]

Absolutely ideal for fleet vehicles, hire boats, emergency vehicles and any installation where the operator has got better things to do than spend months learning about batteries, installations and how to interpret the sometimes overly complicated displays on other types of battery monitors.

...

A voltmeter can be a very useful piece of equipment. But it actually requires some very extensive knowledge on behalf of the operator and almost continual monitoring of the battery voltage in order to translate this information into an indiciation of state of charge.

 

If the operator posesses this knowledge and is prepared to sit and watch the voltmeter all day then they probably do not require a SmartGauge.

...

If the operator loves to continually fiddle with the meter, resynchronise it's counters, check the batteries, measure, calculate and set Peukert's exponent then the operator probably will not require a SmartGauge.How much clearer could I have been?

 

Yeah, BUT as this thread has proved, someone like 'Top cat' clearly isn't like that yet can get by using a voltmeter and ammeter just fine.

 

I would say the above is almost totally all marketing, creating a 'need' for something.

 

I even think the '50% rule' is marketing too, if it's soooo important, why not provide some hard data to back it up instead of hand waving and smoke and mirrors.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Evo]

Yeah, BUT as this thread has proved, someone like 'Top cat' clearly isn't like that yet can get by using a voltmeter and ammeter just fine.

 

Do you think so..? I think it says the oposite when you have to start a thread on here because you are not sure what you are being told by your meters - wether your suspicions were correct or not.

[Gibbo]

Yeah, BUT as this thread has proved, someone like 'Top cat' clearly isn't like that yet can get by using a voltmeter and ammeter just fine.

 

What is your problem?

 

You seem to be implying I have advised Top Cat to get a SmartGauge. I have said no such thing. I haven't even hinted at it. Where do you think you've seen that?

 

For your information Top Cat managed to work his way correctly through a load of Peukert stuff and came to the correct conclusion. He's clearly not as daft as you're making him out to be,

 

I would say the above is almost totally all marketing, creating a 'need' for something.

 

You really do have comprehension problems. Most of "the above" is stating who doesn't need one! ie the site doing itself out of sales! can't you read?

 

I even think the '50% rule' is marketing too,

 

For whose benefit? How would anyone selling anything benefit from it?

 

 

if it's soooo important, why not provide some hard data to back it up instead of hand waving and smoke and mirrors.

 

Firstly, even if I did (which I don't have time to), you wouldn't read it. It would take almost an entire book.

 

Secondly...

 

Cruising equipment (the biggest battery monitor manufacturer that has ever existed) think it's valid.

 

http://www.evdl.org/docs/ce-ah.pdf

 

Amplepower (another huge battery equipment company) think it's valid.

 

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/consider/index.html

 

Heart Interface think it's valid.

 

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Discontinued-Products/Link%20100-200%20manual%20.pdf

 

I could list these all day long. Don't you look like a dick now.

[Top cat]

Thanks to the help and advice I've had from this forum I'm pretty confident I can manage my batteries with a volt and ammeter plus a little experience

 

On another thread Gibbo did comment that for the usage I had in mind (moving on daily) I probably didn't need a Smartgauge. He has never tried to sell me one, just given good technical advice.

 

Now with the benefit of hindsight I may have done things differently, I can see that many of the functions of the Victron BMV are not as useful or accurate as their marketing would have you believe. So now I'm just using the volt and ammeter functions and as I already had a Adverc voltmeter I could have got an ammeter far cheaper (or put a shunt on the adverc)

 

For me the idea unit would be a combined volt and ammeter with an accurate SOC output, preferably with volts and amps displayed at the same time. So I can see how the volts and amps interact and make up my own mind about the state of the batteries both their health and state of charge

 

I might end up getting a smartgauge as well but not till I've seen how I get on with what I have.

 

Regards

 

TC

[nb Innisfree]

Gibbo,

 

I have a BMV monitor, great, I have had quite a bit of enjoyment out of it but got pissed off with percentage readings so I bought a Smartgauge to supplement it. Not quite as much fun as you can't fiddle about with it as much but that's ok as I only want it for percentage readings.

 

Now the thing is you may or may not recall my AGM batts are down to somewhere in the region of 45% capacity left, might have improved a bit since I adopted regular 8hr raised absorption charges, but as I don't know what level of inaccuracy my Smartgauge is reading I can't trust the reading.

 

Is it possible for you to give me a rough ballpark figure? If it is within, say, 5% then I could get by until our batts give up the fight for survival and we get nice new ones.

 

Also at what level of batt capacity would the inaccuracy be impractical.

 

Thanks.

Edited August 31, 2011 by nb Innisfree

[Gibbo]

Gibbo,

 

I have a BMV monitor, great, I have had quite a bit of enjoyment out of it but got pissed off with percentage readings so I bought a Smartgauge to supplement it. Not quite as much fun as you can't fiddle about with it as much but that's ok as I only want it for percentage readings.

 

Now the thing is you may or may not recall my AGM batts are down to somewhere in the region of 45% capacity left, might have improved a bit since I adopted regular 8hr raised absorption charges, but as I don't know what level of inaccuracy my Smartgauge is reading I can't trust the reading.

 

Is it possible for you to give me a rough ballpark figure? If it is within, say, 5% then I could get by until our batts give up the fight for survival and we get nice new ones.

 

Also at what level of batt capacity would the inaccuracy be impractical.

 

Thanks.

 

Difficult one this. The full answer is, it could be reading complete rubbish. What happens is that once the batteries fall below about 50% they're actually not just living with reduced capacity, they are broken.

 

This means that everything SG uses and relies on to get the SOC is nothing more than random information. The nett result is that it calculates complete rubbish.

 

The only way I could work it out is if you can run two complete discharges, at two wildly different constant currents, from totally full down to totally flat and log the current and voltage right the way through at a minimum of 1 minute intervals. At the start, after fully charging, the batteries need to stand, with neither load nor charge, for 48 hours before starting the discharge run. Which is, in all fairmess, practically impossible to do in a living environment. But if you can...

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gibbo

[smileypete]

Firstly, even if I did (which I don't have time to), you wouldn't read it. It would take almost an entire book.

 

Secondly...

 

Cruising equipment (the biggest battery monitor manufacturer that has ever existed) think it's valid.

 

http://www.evdl.org/docs/ce-ah.pdf

 

Amplepower (another huge battery equipment company) think it's valid.

 

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/consider/index.html

 

Heart Interface think it's valid.

 

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Discontinued-Products/Link%20100-200%20manual%20.pdf

 

I could list these all day long. Don't you look like a dick now.

LMAO Gibbo!

 

They ALL make or sell pricey battery monitors, and like your website, NONE of them have provided any data to back it up.

 

All that's needed is a cycle life vs depth of discharge chart.

 

For example, looking at this chart from US Battery (clicky), it's pretty obvious that discharging to 20% instead of 50% makes very little difference in cost.

 

No smoke and mirrors needed there, eh?

 

cheers,

Pete.

[WotEver]

For example, looking at this chart from US Battery (clicky), it's pretty obvious that discharging to 20% instead of 50% makes very little difference in cost.

Huh?

 

That chart clearly shows in excess of 40% fewer cycles (675 vs 1150) by discharging to 20% instead of 50%.

 

Nobody's ever said that 50% is a magic number, there's no cliff edge that the graph falls off. It's simply a reasonable balance between usage and life expectancy.

 

Tony

 

Here's another graph, this time from Concorde:

 

This one shows a more than 50% life reduction by discharging to 20%.

[Gibbo]

They ALL make or sell pricey battery monitors, and like your website, NONE of them have provided any data to back it up.

 

Laughing doesn't make you right.

 

You are so wrapped up in your own silly little world that you often say the most ridiculous things.

 

Tell me exactly how a battery giving the most economical life when discharged on average to 50% allows a battery monitor manufacturer to sell more battery monitors.

 

Would they sell even more if it had turned out to be a 60% rule? Or would they sell less? Perhaps they'd sell more if had turned out to be a 35% rule?

 

After you have failed to do this, I will give you a chance to explain how all the rest of the world is wrong and the 50% rule is something deliberately made up out of thin air for marketing purposes but doesn't actually allow anyone to sell anything. Battery manufacturers wont sell more. Battery charger manufacturers won't sell more. Alternator manufacturers won't sell more. Battery monitor manufacturers won't sell more. Lead processors won't sell more. Acid purifiers won't sell more. No one will sell more of anything. Not very good marketing that.

 

 

For example, looking at this chart from US Battery (clicky), it's pretty obvious that discharging to 20% instead of 50% makes very little difference in cost

 

 

Really? Check the batteries in your calculator (or your head). There's a 6.5% difference in life.

 

 

That one is even better. That one shows a 25% increase in total ahrs obtained by discharging to 50% than going down to 20%

 

I have another one here from Enersys that shows roughly the same.

 

ETA: Pete will now come back with something about the graphs being made up for marketing purposes so that someone can sell more of something.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gibbo