Kabola Flue

[c c]

I bought a Kabola E5 from Karunda plus flue. It was ex-demo model. The flue is in three pieces - one top cowl piece - a short Stainless steel double skinned pipe about .5m length and a longer stainless steel double skinned pipe just under 1m in length.

The manual shows all three pieces together with the .5m length sitting atop the heater then the 1m lenth sliding over the crimped end of the one below and the top cowled piece sliding over that.

Having juggled the pieces for many days without them fitting together I reluctantly telephoned the helpful chap at Karunda where we worked out that my problem was that someone had hacked off the crimped end of the 1m flue pipe to fit a deck piece on their display.

Now ignorring the fact that if they had told me when I picked up the kit that the flue was a couple of inches short of a heating system, I would have bought a new complete one instead, they do not seem to be jumping at my offer to let them replace it with one that is fit for the purpose.

As its still pretty chilly in Rugby can anyone tell me where I can get this 1m length of Kabola flue so that I can get the heating going?

[rjasmith]

I bought a Kabola E5 from Karunda plus flue. It was ex-demo model. The flue is in three pieces - one top cowl piece - a short Stainless steel double skinned pipe about .5m length and a longer stainless steel double skinned pipe just under 1m in length.

The manual shows all three pieces together with the .5m length sitting atop the heater then the 1m lenth sliding over the crimped end of the one below and the top cowled piece sliding over that.

Having juggled the pieces for many days without them fitting together I reluctantly telephoned the helpful chap at Karunda where we worked out that my problem was that someone had hacked off the crimped end of the 1m flue pipe to fit a deck piece on their display.

Now ignorring the fact that if they had told me when I picked up the kit that the flue was a couple of inches short of a heating system, I would have bought a new complete one instead, they do not seem to be jumping at my offer to let them replace it with one that is fit for the purpose.

As its still pretty chilly in Rugby can anyone tell me where I can get this 1m length of Kabola flue so that I can get the heating going?

 

Oh dear!

 

I can see your difficulty. I have the same kit of bits from Kuranda to do my E5 installation (except that mine were new and "unmodified"!).

 

The problem is that I believe Kuranda are the sole main distrinbutors for all Kabola probucts in UK so while you could try Kabola direct in Holland, they will end up pointing you back to Kuranda. Also, any other UK chandlers (eg Ely Boat chandlers, who stock Kabola stuff) will also buy from Kuranda.

 

I'm sure Kuranda would order in a new 1m section for you but I realise you really want them to provide that f.o.c.

 

You could try eBay to see if someone is getting rid of a second hand Kabola flue system perhaps or otherwise do a bit of Professional or DIY engineering on the cut off end to make it join up properly - some sort of adaptor section? It won't matter if the adaptor part isn't double skinned as it will only be short.

 

Richard

Edited March 3, 2011 by rjasmith

[c c]

Richard

Thanks for reply and sympathy.

Us 60something Wey & Arun folk have to stick together.......(ex Membership Sec, Fundraiser and very very briefly, Wey South Editor).

We've found a stainless steel inner pipe and will try to make a water/air tight joint with that. - Another Richard (Narrowboat Fitter) is visiting tomorrow morning to "sort it".

Keep in touch to share our KabolaE5ing experiences.

Ian

[monkeyhanger]

Oh dear!

I fitted an E5 in my boat about 15 years ago, buying all the bits from Kuranda ( and I have to say that I think it's a brilliant piece of equipment and that Kuranda have been excellent with help and advice) but shortly after I had fitted it I visited my local plumbers merchant, and he was selling twin wall flue pipe which LOOKED identical to the stuff I'd bought from Kuranda,costing less than half what I had paid. It may be worth making a few visits to your local plumbers.

I can see your difficulty. I have the same kit of bits from Kuranda to do my E5 installation (except that mine were new and "unmodified"!).

 

The problem is that I believe Kuranda are the sole main distrinbutors for all Kabola probucts in UK so while you could try Kabola direct in Holland, they will end up pointing you back to Kuranda. Also, any other UK chandlers (eg Ely Boat chandlers, who stock Kabola stuff) will also buy from Kuranda.

 

I'm sure Kuranda would order in a new 1m section for you but I realise you really want them to provide that f.o.c.

 

You could try eBay to see if someone is getting rid of a second hand Kabola flue system perhaps or otherwise do a bit of Professional or DIY engineering on the cut off end to make it join up properly - some sort of adaptor section? It won't matter if the adaptor part isn't double skinned as it will only be short.

 

Richard

 

There seems to have been a problem when I added my reply, and this has somehow got mixed up with the previous post, however the important facts are in there if you read carefully. Sorry about that. Jack

[rjasmith]

There seems to have been a problem when I added my reply, and this has somehow got mixed up with the previous post, however the important facts are in there if you read carefully. Sorry about that. Jack

 

monkeyhanger said:-

 

"I fitted an E5 in my boat about 15 years ago, buying all the bits from Kuranda ( and I have to say that I think it's a brilliant piece of equipment and that Kuranda have been excellent with help and advice) but shortly after I had fitted it I visited my local plumbers merchant, and he was selling twin wall flue pipe which LOOKED identical to the stuff I'd bought from Kuranda,costing less than half what I had paid. It may be worth making a few visits to your local plumbers."

 

Thought I'd unscramble your words from mine to make what you said stand out better!

 

In case you didn't realise, you need to avoid typing your reply words in the part between the two "quote" commands that appear at each end of the previous poster's words.

 

I must admit I've never seen the Kabola twin wall flue system components anywhere other than at Kuranda - can you remember who your local firm was?

 

Richard

[rjasmith]

Richard

Thanks for reply and sympathy.

Us 60something Wey & Arun folk have to stick together.......(ex Membership Sec, Fundraiser and very very briefly, Wey South Editor).

We've found a stainless steel inner pipe and will try to make a water/air tight joint with that. - Another Richard (Narrowboat Fitter) is visiting tomorrow morning to "sort it".

Keep in touch to share our KabolaE5ing experiences.

Ian

 

Ian,

 

Of course - I didn't look at your signature line as I would have recognised your name. I remember speaking to you when you were membership sec as something dreadful had happened to my WACT subscription payments (Bank's fault not mine!).

 

I'm still a long way off actually using my E5 yet but I have done various "off boat" trials with it and experimented with running it on domestic heating oil (28 sec Kerosene). As we have multiple fuel tanks on our boat I've decided to run it on that instead of diesel. There are past posts of mine on this in CWDF somewhere!

 

Richard

[monkeyhanger]

monkeyhanger said:-

 

"I fitted an E5 in my boat about 15 years ago, buying all the bits from Kuranda ( and I have to say that I think it's a brilliant piece of equipment and that Kuranda have been excellent with help and advice) but shortly after I had fitted it I visited my local plumbers merchant, and he was selling twin wall flue pipe which LOOKED identical to the stuff I'd bought from Kuranda,costing less than half what I had paid. It may be worth making a few visits to your local plumbers."

 

Thought I'd unscramble your words from mine to make what you said stand out better!

 

In case you didn't realise, you need to avoid typing your reply words in the part between the two "quote" commands that appear at each end of the previous poster's words.

 

I must admit I've never seen the Kabola twin wall flue system components anywhere other than at Kuranda - can you remember who your local firm was?

 

Richard

That Plumbers merchant has now closed down, but Harworth Heating will sell twin wall flue pipe, and there is quite a bit on ebay at the moment. It may suit your requirements. Good Luck!

[NBMike]

Kabola are quite adamant that it should be Insulated twin wall flue for at least the sections outside. BES stock this but I'm not sure if its plain or stainless steel. (Aah just checks specs on page 183 of sept 2010 BES catalogue and it is S/S inner skin.

Mike

Don't know if it will fit to your sections though canalchef

Edited March 6, 2011 by NBMike

[rjasmith]

Kabola are quite adamant that it should be Insulated twin wall flue for at least the sections outside. BES stock this but I'm not sure if its plain or stainless steel. (Aah just checks specs on page 183 of sept 2010 BES catalogue and it is S/S inner skin.

Mike

Don't know if it will fit to your sections though canalchef

 

Mike,

 

I don't think that's quite right. Certainly the Kabola recommended and supplied flue kit is twin wall stainless steel (inner and outer) but it is only insulated with a small air gap of about 1/8". There is no insulation material in the gap and the air is therefore free to move about in it.

 

I haven't looked at your refs to the BES catalogue but I suspect they sell the proper household Building Regs approved flue which has a typically 1/2" gap between the walls which is filled with a fire proof insulation material. The joints between these types of flue sections use a peculiar crude screw thread arrangement (I know because I have some on my house oil boiler flue). These won't fit the Kabola system.

 

I've not tried very hard admittedly but I've never seen anyone stocking the proper Kabola flue pipe other than Kuranda or people they supply to.

 

Of course it would be possible to replace the entire Kabola flue system with the household stuff (eg from BES or Harworth Heating or wherever) and the Kabola boiler would undoubtedly perform splendidly with it!

 

The proper Kabola stuff is not cheap but then nor is the household stuff either! At least the genuine Kabola is reasonably well suited to boat use (sensible roof fitting and easily detachable outer chimney). I definitely would not say the same for the household stuff!!

 

Richard

[c c]

Thanks for replies.

Unfortunately one of the replies was not from the helpful chap at Karunda so I have experimented with joining two double skinned pieces together with a very short single skinned joint, hoping this does not lose too much temperature as te hot air travels up the flue. Ignition imminent.

[rjasmith]

Thanks for replies.

Unfortunately one of the replies was not from the helpful chap at Karunda so I have experimented with joining two double skinned pieces together with a very short single skinned joint, hoping this does not lose too much temperature as te hot air travels up the flue. Ignition imminent.

 

Ian,

 

I'm sure it will be fine! I tried a variety of flue arrangements in my "off boat" trial last year and the E5 didn't seem to be troubled by using short lengths of single skin (at the bottom end).

 

I even tried the very naughty slight dog leg using two 45deg bends without noticeable effect on the flame.

 

Presumably your flue is a straight vertical run which is the only recommended way for a vapourising pot burner.

 

Richard

[c c]

Just to update Kabola E5 enthusiasts:

Karunda chap got back and sent a replacement flue at last - and then sent a replacement over-boiling heat cutout which was jammed shut. Got it fired up and the central heating worked well. The E5 however does not produce a blue flame as recommended and attempting to follow the cleaning instructions to achieve the blue perfection only highlighted that the info downloadable from the Karunda website is not for this model of E5. We have not yet worked out how to take out the burner parts to clean them and the burner pot itself seems totaly inaccessible to clean its many air holes.

Can anyone advise please?

[NBMike]

IIRC there are 6 small hex head screws holding the burner pot in place. Then its just scrape and scratch to get the crud out. I found a 6" steel rule useful here.

Mike

[rjasmith]

IIRC there are 6 small hex head screws holding the burner pot in place. Then its just scrape and scratch to get the crud out. I found a 6" steel rule useful here.

Mike

 

Ian and Mike,

 

My E5 is slightly different in that the pot is not fixed by screws or bolts at the back but simply supported on a steel "ledge". The front is then held by two hex head bolts and nuts.

 

Even though my boiler is a long way from being installed in the boat yet, it does mean that I've been able to have an extensive play with it as reported above and in other threads.

 

For a start, how "blue" are you expecting your flame to be? I think the usual description is that, certainly on high flame, it can have slightly yellow tips to it and be perfectly OK. I don't think you can expect it to be as bright blue as a gas ring flame for example. I'm sure I've seen a photo of a typical flame somewhere (probably on Harworth Heating's fabulous site) but couldn't find it yesterday.

 

The key to a good flame on these vapourising burners is the quality of the flue which I think you understand. On a boat, the length is going to be marginal so other things like avoiding bends, keeping it vertical, using insulated or at least twin wall flue pipe and having a proper terminal (chimney) are vital. It's the air draw that makes the flame blue but of course you need to have clear air holes in the pot as well.

 

I just can't help myself and HAVE to know how things work so I usually take them apart (within reason!) even when they're new. I generally don't care about warranties!!

 

I've had the pot out of my E5 and will do it again in a while to take some pictures for you and anyone else who might be interested. Hopefully you'll be able to see where the air holes are. It's a pity the Kabola manual isn't illustrated and I think they could have done a better job of it frankly.

 

It isn't difficult to take the pot out. You will need to shut your fuel valve, disconnect the input fuel pipe to the regulator and then take the interconnector pipe off between regulator output and pot (catch the fuel that runs out of the regulator chamber). Then carefully undo the flame sensor tube on the top of the flame fail shut off valve (small 8mm compression nut). Remove and set aside the regulator once you've unscrewed the two posidrive screws holding its mounting bracket to the boiler.

 

Now open the boiler door and also remove the "K" plate below it (held by two 17mm nuts).

 

Undo whatever secures your pot to the combustion chamber bottom plate (Two bolts/nuts in my case, 6 hex head screws in Mike's) and slide it out towards you.

 

Then you will be able to see where all the air holes are!

 

On mine, the outer part of the pot has holes spaced about 20mm apart vertically and horizontally from top to bottom, all the way round ie LOTS of them! I imagine these ones won't normally get carboned up but I could be wrong! The inner concentric part of the pot has fewer big (6mm) holes and the really important ones will be the double ring of smaller ones at the top of the inner part.

 

I will admit that to do a proper pot clean I think you would have to take the pot out. It must be quite difficult to clear all the holes round the back when it is in situ.

 

Mike's suggestion of using a 6" steel rule as a carbon scraper is a good one and is usually made by Kuranda as well when they sell it to you!

 

Obviously I don't have extensive experience of actually running this thing yet so maybe I'm painting rather a (carbon?) black picture of the clean up job!

 

One more thing, if you do take the pot out, check that the sealing rope at the top of the pot that seals it to the combustion chamber plate is in good condition and properly in place. If not, the flue draw could bypass the pot and lessen the pull through the magic holes!

 

Richard

 

Will go and get camera and take pictures now - back here in a moment!

[rjasmith]

Right - here are the pictures!

 

First is of me doing my trial to see how the thing worked, tried different fuels (diesel and then kerosene) and then messed about with the flue config. ie trying to see what happened if there was a double bend dog leg at the bottom end (using single skin bends as the Kabola style twin wall is not available in bends because it breaks all the "rules"!!) Boiler was rigged up with a temp fuel tank, header tank + vent pipe (old fire extinguisher), Bolin pump and big old radiator to dump heat.

 

 

Next is a shot of the pot taken from the side showing the holes in the outer part which go all the way round it

 

 

Next is an oblique shot of the top of the pot showing the double row of holes round the top inner part of the pot and the big holes through it where it exends downwards into the outer part to form a sort of "skirt" that is open at the bottom.

 

 

Finally here is a view straight down into the pot which shows the gasket strip (woven glass rope) that mates with the bottom of the combustion chamber when the pot is in situ.

 

 

Hope these are useful!

 

Richard

 

edited to mend photo links

Edited March 31, 2011 by rjasmith

[carlt]

 

 

"Raise the lightning rods Igor!"

 

"Yes Professor Frankenstein MUAHAHAHAHA!"

[rjasmith]

Yes - thank you Carl! I suppose I do look a bit manic.

 

Richard

[carlt]

Yes - thank you Carl! I suppose I do look a bit manic.

 

Scarily like the Father-out-law, actually

[c c]

Manic or not - Me and Badsey are very grateful to you and the others who responded.

As the temperature sounds like its going to rise this week your pictures give me the confidence to take it all apart and really understand it.

When I relit it yesterday after an attempt to clean the inside (without taking the inside out) it decided to imitate the buzz-roar of a ramjet until it went out in a puff of smoke - I opened its door and it relit itself, only to roar again when I closed the door. Frightening but we all survived as I closed the fuel control and it starved of fuel.

It then burnt happily all night on its lowest setting, heating four radiators and the hot water tank.

I have told it that I will win in the end!

[rjasmith]

Ah - yes the dreaded Ram Jet Effect. Now if we had sound on CWDF we could really give a proper Frankenstein (or maybe Carlt Father in Law) impression.

 

It's quite frightening that isn't it. I've done it too but only with that mock up in the photo.

 

Two things will do it:-

 

1. Far too much fuel in the pot when lighting from cold (difficult to gauge how much has gone in).

 

2. Attempting to light it after it has gone out and you haven't left it to go cold first.

 

I've decided to modify the cold start instruction but haven't yet determined the full procedure. It will involve pouring a small quantity of diesel (or kerosene in my case) into the pot from a measure followed by the usual measure of meths (or a chunk of fire lighter). The problem is that it is difficult to guess by just pressing the fuel cut off button for a little while, which is what the official book says.

 

Let the burner warm up on the meths plus measured amount of fuel and only press the button when the sensor is hot and it will latch on.

 

I won't firm up this procedure until I've got the E5 installation finished I expect.

 

Richard

Edited March 31, 2011 by rjasmith

[rjasmith]

I've just remembered where I saw a picture of a vapourising pot burner flame in action.

 

It was on the Harworth Heating site - they seem to have put a little film of one of their Bubble stoves on Youtube

 

Quite useful if anyone isn't sure what their stove/boiler flame should look like.

 

Richard

[c c]

Thanks to the helpful people on this forum, the kabola is going now and seems to provide more than enough heat on a low setting.

Next questions are -

will it burn better on parafin or kerosene?

what is the difference in price?

If I split Badseys two connected 75gal tanks (total 150gals) into one for red diesel for the National engine and the other for kerosene for the Kabola heater, is it difficult to find a supplier in that quantity?

[rjasmith]

Thanks to the helpful people on this forum, the kabola is going now and seems to provide more than enough heat on a low setting.

Next questions are -

will it burn better on parafin or kerosene?

what is the difference in price?

If I split Badseys two connected 75gal tanks (total 150gals) into one for red diesel for the National engine and the other for kerosene for the Kabola heater, is it difficult to find a supplier in that quantity?

 

Ian,

 

I'm afraid I speak as one of those relatively unusual people who does not have gas at home - in fact the nearest gas main is miles away. As a result we use several thousand litres of kerosene each year to run our oil fired central heating.

 

Kerosene and paraffin are essentially the same thing ie 28 second (Redwood viscosity scale) light distillate fuel oil. The word "kerosene" is really what the Americans call what we call paraffin. By comparison, the old type of red diesel (gas oil) is 35 second light distillate fuel oil so has a greater viscosity than kerosene.

 

Normally though, in the UK, paraffin means kerosene that has been cleaned up at the refinery to remove aromatic hydrocarbons that make a strong smell when it is burned in eg an oil lamp or a houshold heater which has no external flue. You will probably remember Aladdin Pink or Esso Blue etc which were examples of this! You can still get clean paraffin but usually only in small cans and at a premium price.

 

CH kerosene is the "unclean" version of paraffin but will burn beautifully in your E5 which has an external flue of course so you won't get the smell (which is no worse than when you burn diesel as now). In fact most users of oil vapourising burner boilers/stoves say that kero is much cleaner burning than diesel. (I don't yet have experience here unfortunately!). However, as I've said on other threads, you'll have to get your oil regulator recalibrated to cope with the lower viscosity of kero. The E5 will be difficult to control if you don't.

To do this you'll either have to buy another one already set up or possibly Kuranda can modify yours if you send it to them. Otherwise you could have a go yourself - if you're brave/foolish like me! (I've tracked down some instructions on the I/net).

 

Kero is fairly easy to buy and there are loads of local suppliers in Yell.com or Yellow Pages under "Oil Fuel Distributors". The minimum that can be delivered is (I think) about 500 litres although I once got two 205 litre drums filled at home by a tanker delivery. This was for a friend who needed it for his steam car!

 

I don't know how or if you could get a tanker to come to a canal side and fill a 340 litre boat tank except by ringing up and asking. Unfortunately the delivery rules seem to change all the time! I plan to tap my home oil tank into jerry cans and take them to the boat when the time comes.

 

Prices for typical quantities I buy (2500 litres) are currently around 60p/litre + VAT. Kero is taxed at 5% VAT and there are no other tax complications as it can't be used for propulsion (unless you have a steam car!)

 

Richard

[c c]

Now THAT - Richard - is what I call a response......

Huge Thanks

Ian