Unlicensed craft

[Denis R]

Andy, the way I read this the first time round was as a plea to gather data in order to refute BW's argument that they're responding adequately to this issue. No harm in that as a principle, as a survey stands scrutiny better than anecdotal evidence. However, in order to maintain data robustness, I think it would have to be a 'snapshot' rather than a 'live' database?

[gringogordo]

 

Eugene, I feel a genuine and more reasoned reply would be better suited in the wider canal press where canal enthusiasts will have reasoned opinions and LISTEN to the points put forward. I have emailed the canal press reagring this issue and if anything is published, I would look forward to receiving a reply from you.

 

Kind regards,

 

I think what you mean is a non interactive medium. Otherwise I can only assume you mean a medium targeted at a specific audience. Otherwise I imagine you will always get disagreement... Personally I don't buy Waterways World or whatever so I would look forward to seeing a response here it is coming.

[DHutch]

I despair!!

Yeah, i would. Im with you, and find it amazing to read what people are saying.

 

Take snibble pizza analogy

11 Of us club together every day for pizza and all get a slice each.

- The 12th slice is taken by someone who doesn't pay and is not envited to join in. Big deal, I don't get any less pizza than if he had paid, (though I may pay a little more)...

I share/buy pizzas 2/3 times a week, and if somone keep robbing the last peice without contributing to the cost, it would only take 2/3 of theses incedents before it told this person what i though of them.

- The 12th slice should be consumed by one of the paying 11, or divided by several of them, or somthing.

- If you continue to let this annonomass person steel you pizza, it wont be long untill they start assuming they have a right to free pizza, perswading you to get another, and demanding a 2nd slice. You have to nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.

 

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

Read the whole thread through again Dan, there's a lot of people who feel they have the right to free pizza.

[DHutch]

Read the whole thread through again Dan, there's a lot of people who feel they have the right to free pizza.

Yes, but they quite simply dont.

- Knowone has the right to free pizza, i know i dont.

- Next they'll be saying they have a right to a free car, or a free narrowboat, or free moorings.

 

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

free moorings

The best slice, with most topping.

[DHutch]

The best slice, with most topping.

yeah, and they can get the f*** off it unless there paying...

[fender.]

Yes, but they quite simply dont.

- Knowone has the right to free pizza, i know i dont.

- Next they'll be saying they have a right to a free car, or a free narrowboat, or free moorings.

Daniel

You people need to be careful with your analogies. There are so many pros and cons to your arguements. If things were free I'm sure you'd be grabbing them like there was no tomorrow! Dont play the dissonance game please! I think if you read through the posts nearly everyone agrees in principle that non-licence payers should be chased. No one has been told they can have a freebie cruise at the expense of others ok, lets be clear on that, its BW's lack of stewardship that has given this impression ok - it is up to us who do pay our licences to put BW right. As I said previously, if BW had been Railtrack or some other railway operator who had let the passengers down badly they'd be facing a fine of millions of pounds. It is time BW faced these sort of penaltys for its dire shortcomings, because it is letting us down so miserably with due respect to non-payers.

[fuzzyduck]

Don't quite understand how the Pizza analogy works, but i'm willing to run with it.

 

we need to adjust this pizza analogy slightly. Firstly this 12 slice pizza is far too small, it needs to be a pizza that is massive, more slices than anyone can eat, in fact this pizza is so big it's impossible to see the whole pizza, appart from a few dedicated pizza eaters who walk round the entire pizza, but no matter what, not even they can do more than eat a small bit of the pizza.

 

However this pizza is a bit special, it never actually gets any smaller, in fact it's slowly getting bigger.

 

Now lets examine the Pizza eaters. which we'll divide into 4 camps.

 

Pizza eaters A.They are eating Pizza, thay pay for Pizza, they eat what they need.

 

Pizza eaters B. Like group A they are eating piza, they pay for pizza, they eat what they need.

 

Pizza eaters C. Like A and B they are also eating pizza, they also eat what they need, however they're not paying for Pizza. and the whole debate surrounds how Pizza eaters A and B react to pizza eaters C.

 

Pizza eaters A see that they have enough pizza, there will always be enough Pizza, so they really don't have much of a problem with pizza eaters C, after all they know that the Pizza Company is payed to look after the Pizza, and if Pizza Company want to get rid of Pizza eaters C, then they sure as hell will.

 

Pizza eaters B on the other hand, they really don't like Pizza eaters C, despite the fact that they cannot possibly even see the whole pizza, and can never run out of pizza they really resent the fact that pizza eaters C are not paying. Pizza eaters B really want the Pizza Company to do something about it, so they start taking notes every time they see a pizza eater C.

 

Nothing wrong with this picture so far

 

However there is a threat to the pizza, the Pizza Company. The pizza company are not using knives and forks to eat the pizza, no they're targeting the best bits of pizza, those little corners where a bit of extra ham fell, and the cheese and pineapple are thickest, they're using huge tools like statutory instruments, and acts of parliament to remove hage slices, to sell off as Executive Pizza. You wait till the executive pizza eaters get hacked of with groups A and B, they're a potential threat to the pizza too because they put up all sorts of "no eating here signs", "eat quietly", "don't eat too fast"

 

Groups A, B, and C represent a fairly powerful unit if they could pull together, but it seems that group B cannot get past the fact that they feel that somehow their bit of Pizza would be better without group C, so group B waste time and resources fighting group C when the pizza comany is the real threat,as well as Group D (the exectuive pizza buyers) representing an as yet unknown quantity that bears watching.

 

I don't really care if this analogy works or not it was fun to write.

[DHutch]

I don't really care if this analogy works or not it was fun to write.

- Haha, im actually in tears of laughter here.

 

I dont nessarally agree with all the points made, but its a dam good read!!

 

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

Few analogies bear close examination and I enjoyed reading that!

they cannot possibly even see the whole pizza,

That's part of the point isn't it, I can only use one small part of the network within a few days cruise of my home mooring. First you notice a nice spot to stop, maybe for a bbq, and you say to yourself "I'll stop there sometime, but there's a boat there now". A few weeks later you pass by again, same boat, a couple of months go by, same boat. Then you find a nice little pub but all the deep water moorings are taken so it's boarding plank time, a few weeks later you go back and there are all the same boats, and next month and the month after. Cruising the same stretch you start to notice that in certain areas there are rows and rows of boats thet never move, some on CC licences some without licences, whole stretches of waterway unavailable for "cruising" and only of any use for making passage. I accept the principle of first come first serve, and if someone else beats me to the prime spots, good luck to them, unless they beat me to it by six months and aint moved since. The only sanction BW have against any breach of the rules is to refuse to licence a boat. Fail to move for a year? no licence renewal, SO WHAT? fail to pay charges for overstaying a 48 hour mooring? no licence renewal, SO WHAT?

The urgency or otherwise of action to oppose BW selling off bits of property does not effect this issue, and easing off on the freeloaders don't make the waterways a better place, it just allows them to laugh up their sleeves and piss on us all from a great hight.

[wrigglefingers]

Thanks Fuzzy, guess I'm a pizza eater A. Is there room for Death Eaters too perhaps? Would hesitate to nominate people but I saw a bloke hand out out his own homemade 'I've reported you to BW' sticker at Christmas.

 

J

Edited February 10, 2006 by wrigglefingers

[Sir Nibble]

I saw a bloke hand out out his own homemade 'I've reported you to BW' sticker at Christmas

Thats not the sort of thing it's easy to condone, but isn't it an indication of the severity of the problem? or at least the perception of the problem.

[fuzzyduck]

we need another analogy for this, Cornish pasty anyone?

 

this is where my "harm" principle comes in, you are being "harmed", and i support your right to give BW the biggest bollocking there is, hell I'll join in.

 

Eugene, what are BW doing to sort out illegal overstayers in snibbles area? The enjoyment of the boaters is being compromised in that area.

 

BUT, in my mind there is a difference, one is reacting to a problem (I.E yours) the other is cruising round looking for a problem to react against (Victor).

 

We'll call these groups E and F. no we won't ...Ed

[anhar]

Readers who criticise BW don't seem to realise a point I'd made earlier. Namely that the sheer extent of the canal system makes it impossible for them to police all of it looking for licence dodgers. And taking on sufficient staff to even attempt the job would almost certainly not be cost effective. So forget it, they simply cannot do this.

 

I'm not saying that therefore we should report dodgers, I'm just saying that BW does not necessarily merit the kicking it gets round here on this topic.

 

And on selling of land for developments, good. It raises large sums of money for canal maintenance which otherwise would have to come from us in even higher licence fees or the general taxpayer. And the latter does not owe boaters a living.

 

regards

Steve

[wrigglefingers]

Thats not the sort of thing it's easy to condone, but isn't it an indication of the severity of the problem? or at least the perception of the problem.

 

Well yes, but this is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived problem. The guy in question had his female partner walking round boats to check licences in some cases trespassing on other people's property. Is that legal? I think that it's classic busybodying and nimbyism.

 

Yes, there's a problem but if we continue to carp on and on about it the perception of the problem becomes so much larger until we eventually decide that all our problems will be resolved if only we could make this one right. We've already explored why people don't have licences for legimate and illegimate reasons. I believe that a rolling database would be so inaccurate that it couldn't be considered robust evidence and would only serve to magnify the problem through multiple sightings etc. Perhaps a one-day snapshot might be better but somehow I don't think so.

 

Jill

[dor]

Readers who criticise BW don't seem to realise a point I'd made earlier. Namely that the sheer extent of the canal system makes it impossible for them to police all of it looking for licence dodgers. And taking on sufficient staff to even attempt the job would almost certainly not be cost effective. So forget it, they simply cannot do this.

 

Have to disagree with you there. BW is well aware of a boat on my mooring that has neither licence or mooring permit. It is owned by the same person who has the boat next to it, and he comes to the boat regularly, so it's not a case of "not been to the boat for weeks to put in the new licence". Yet nothing is being done.

 

Not cost effective to employ a few "wardens?" At an average £500 a boat for licence, more than that for mooring permit, how many boats a week do you have to pick up on to pay your way?

 

What it needs is the will of BW to tackle the issue; and as Snibble says, it is not a "victimless crime", so we do suffer due to the attitudes of the system defrauders.

 

What does it do to get BW to move theirs off the next targetted bit of development land and address the major issue of licence and mooring permit dodging?

[Sir Nibble]

Phew! I was beginning to feel very outnumbered.

[anhar]

Have to disagree with you there. BW is well aware of a boat on my mooring that has neither licence or mooring permit. It is owned by the same person who has the boat next to it, and he comes to the boat regularly, so it's not a case of "not been to the boat for weeks to put in the new licence". Yet nothing is being done.

 

Not cost effective to employ a few "wardens?" At an average £500 a boat for licence, more than that for mooring permit, how many boats a week do you have to pick up on to pay your way?

 

What it needs is the will of BW to tackle the issue; and as Snibble says, it is not a "victimless crime", so we do suffer due to the attitudes of the system defrauders.

 

What does it do to get BW to move theirs off the next targetted bit of development land and address the major issue of licence and mooring permit dodging?

Hello dor

 

Clearly they are wrong in the case you mention where they are aware of this situation. But I was making the more general point about their inability to police every single mile of canal looking for licence and mooring dodgers.

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 10, 2006 by anhar

[fuzzyduck]

Yeah Eugene, giz a job.

[Pirate]

MMmmmm Only 6 patrolmen in the whole of the UK?.........

 

thank you.... I have a brilliant idea.

 

I am sick and Bl$%£dy tired of paying for freeloaders..

 

Ever heard the saying if you cant beat em join em?

 

Now ....I`m thinking

[fuzzyduck]

Anyone fancy forming a company, and seeing if we can get BW to subcontract out licence / mooring enforcement to us.

 

add in the resale value for the section 8 boats, and it could proove to be extremely viable. hey being paid to cruise up and down the waterways, by car and boat, sounds like a plan to me.

[fender.]

Anyone fancy forming a company, and seeing if we can get BW to subcontract out licence / mooring enforcement to us.

 

add in the resale value for the section 8 boats, and it could proove to be extremely viable. hey being paid to cruise up and down the waterways, by car and boat, sounds like a plan to me.

 

 

It simply means BW aint up to the job and arent the ones for the job of licensing. Perhaps Capita can help? They have great expertise in congestion charging and chasing up council taxes.

[fuzzyduck]

oh great capita on the waterways, minimum wage people paid by commission to be annoying as possible

 

remember the Tv licence inspector assulting the disabled guy a few years back?

[fender.]

oh great capita on the waterways, minimum wage people paid by commission to be annoying as possible

 

remember the Tv licence inspector assulting the disabled guy a few years back?

 

yeah of course, but what else have we as an alternative? Capita is so good it'll make sure the pizza slices are shared so 'evenly' (so thinly in other words) that most of it is left for the greedy bosses!