Under floor insulation

[Top cat]

The isn't any insulation under the floor of our boat and the floor gets very cold so much so that we have condensation under the fridge and settee.

 

I'm reluctant to take the floor up as we have Carndeen stuck down.

 

Is there any reason why we shouldn't drill holes round the edges and inject two part expanding foam and fill the under floor cavity ? would that trap moisture, rot the floor and rust out the baseplate ?

 

Regards

 

TC

[bottle]

Just ventilate he areas that have condensation.

[Bobbybass]

The isn't any insulation under the floor of our boat and the floor gets very cold so much so that we have condensation under the fridge and settee.

 

I'm reluctant to take the floor up as we have Carndeen stuck down.

 

Is there any reason why we shouldn't drill holes round the edges and inject two part expanding foam and fill the under floor cavity ? would that trap moisture, rot the floor and rust out the baseplate ?

 

Regards

 

TC

 

Isn't that stuff extremely explosive while curing in a confined space.....or is is there a safe version ?

 

Bob

[blackrose]

The isn't any insulation under the floor of our boat and the floor gets very cold so much so that we have condensation under the fridge and settee.

 

I'm reluctant to take the floor up as we have Carndeen stuck down.

 

Is there any reason why we shouldn't drill holes round the edges and inject two part expanding foam and fill the under floor cavity ? would that trap moisture, rot the floor and rust out the baseplate ?

 

Regards

 

TC

 

I wouldn't do that. I have injected the cavity between the lining and shell in the walls of my boat (between the floor and gunwhale) with cans of sprayfoam and it's a difficult and messy job. Sprayfoam doesn't travel laterally as far as you think it will. I had to drill lots of small holes 6" apart and spray 3 second squirts of foam in starting at the bottom and working up to get it in evenly. Without doing that the foam would actually rip the lining off the wall.

 

I'm not saying it would rip your heavier floorboards up but you can't just have holes 7ft apart and expect the foam to go from one to the other.

 

The other thing is that how would any water (from plumbing leaks), that found it's way under the floorboards escape? It's less likely to run to the back and more likely to get stuck under there.

 

Isn't that stuff extremely explosive while curing in a confined space.....or is is there a safe version ?

 

Bob

 

I don't think it's explosive while curing - there are no real vapours or fumes given off that one can detect.

Edited December 31, 2010 by blackrose

[Bobbybass]

Well....I do recall a narrowboat explosion from expanding foam...and I also found this on the 'net'...but it may be a different type ?..

I'm interested as I have been wary of using it myself...and it would have been handy.

 

Smoker sparks house explosion

 

TWO terrace houses were nearly destroyed when a cigarette triggered a large explosion. Five fire engines were called to Portland Road, Croydon, at about 7pm yesterday to tackle the resultant blaze. One person was slightly injured.

 

It is thought that building work was taking place involving expanding foam a?

 

used as a filler a? and someone lit a cigarette and ignited the vapours. The blaze took 90 minutes to bring under control and the fire brigade fears the buildings could collapse.

[blackrose]

I think most dense flooring materials (wood, laminates, etc), tend to be cold underfoot even if they are laid over foam underlay or other insulation. It's to do with the specific heat capacity of the material itself.

 

I don't know what Carndeen is exactly but is it a hard, dense material? I suspect you might not get much improvement even if you insulated under your floorboards.

 

Most of my boat is done in carpet tiles laid over 8mm foam underlay (I know, carpet tiles aren't supposed to go over underlay because where heavy furniture rests it pulls the tiles and they move on the underlay), but it's nice and warm underfoot. However, my kitchen & bathroom are done in waterproof laminate laid over the same 8mm foam, but it's freezing underfoot in winter which indicates the limited thermal insulation of the underlay in relation to the greater effect that the specific heat capacity of the dense laminate flooring has.

 

Well....I do recall a narrowboat explosion from expanding foam...and I also found this on the 'net'...but it may be a different type ?..

I'm interested as I have been wary of using it myself...and it would have been handy.

 

Smoker sparks house explosion

 

TWO terrace houses were nearly destroyed when a cigarette triggered a large explosion. Five fire engines were called to Portland Road, Croydon, at about 7pm yesterday to tackle the resultant blaze. One person was slightly injured.

 

It is thought that building work was taking place involving expanding foam a?

 

used as a filler a? and someone lit a cigarette and ignited the vapours. The blaze took 90 minutes to bring under control and the fire brigade fears the buildings could collapse.

 

If it's an issue I wonder what safety measures professional sprayfoamers use? I never found using sprayfoam in confined spaces a fire or explosion hazard, but then I don't smoke. The main problem is getting the bloody stuff all over the place except where you want it!

Edited December 31, 2010 by blackrose

[Bobbybass]

I think most dense flooring materials (wood, laminates, etc), tend to be cold underfoot even if they are laid over foam underlay or other insulation. It's to do with the specific heat capacity of the material itself.

 

I don't know what Carndeen is exactly but is it a hard, dense material? I suspect you might not get much improvement even if you insulated under your floorboards.

 

Most of my boat is done in carpet tiles laid over 8mm foam underlay (I know, carpet tiles aren't supposed to go over underlay because where heavy furniture rests it pulls the tiles and they move on the underlay), but it's nice and warm underfoot. However, my kitchen & bathroom are done in waterproof laminate laid over the same 8mm foam, but it's freezing underfoot in winter which indicates the limited thermal insulation of the underlay in relation to the greater effect that the specific heat capacity of the dense laminate flooring has.

 

 

 

If it's an issue I wonder what safety measures professional sprayfoamers use? I never found using sprayfoam in confined spaces a fire or explosion hazard, but then I don't smoke. The main problem is getting the bloody stuff all over the place except where you want it!

 

I 'think'...that sprayfoam...as on hull...is different....as it has to be fireproof and not give off Co2...

I found several sites that say that expanding foam....may give off Co2 ?

 

I bought my present boat about 3 years ago...and had a can of expanding foam ready for some of the jobs...

It was about that time that I read..some guy had done the same thing...and at night there was an explosion due to the fumes.

I have looked for that article..but can't find it...but I abandoned my thuoughts of using it.

 

Bob

[ditchcrawler]

I 'think'...that sprayfoam...as on hull...is different....as it has to be fireproof and not give off Co2...

I found several sites that say that expanding foam....may give off Co2 ?

 

 

Bob

Does it, where does that info come from, RCD?

[blackrose]

I 'think'...that sprayfoam...as on hull...is different....as it has to be fireproof and not give off Co2...

I found several sites that say that expanding foam....may give off Co2 ?

 

I bought my present boat about 3 years ago...and had a can of expanding foam ready for some of the jobs...

It was about that time that I read..some guy had done the same thing...and at night there was an explosion due to the fumes.

I have looked for that article..but can't find it...but I abandoned my thuoughts of using it.

 

Bob

 

As far as I am aware C02 is not a flammable gas - which is the reason it is used in fire extinguishers.

[Bobbybass]

Does it, where does that info come from, RCD?

I don't know what you mean by RCD ?

All I know..is that I definatley read that some guy blew up his boat after using expanding foam...and so I changed my mind. He had used it in the day time and the article said that its was fumes from 'curing'

As you can see from my extract above.....someone blew up his house....

I have had times where I could have used it..but have held back because of that..

I'm not being awkward...I'm just interested...

 

Bob

[Bobbybass]

I knew I had read it somewhere...

 

Its on the Waterways World site..2008

Said that 'methane given off while the foam cured caused the boat to explode'.

Luckily the guy survived...

 

Bob

[ditchcrawler]

I don't know what you mean by RCD ?

 

 

Bob

Recreational Craft Directive

[blackrose]

I knew I had read it somewhere...

 

Its on the Waterways World site..2008

Said that 'methane given off while the foam cured caused the boat to explode'.

Luckily the guy survived...

 

Bob

 

Methane is CH4 - yes thats flammable.

 

Do you have the link? I think it must have been a different type of sprayfoam that this person was using - perhaps cellulose based? I don't think that polyurethane sprayfoam gives off methane because I don't ever remember seeing it labelled as such? Methane is also a greenhouse gas with about 25 times the global warming potential of C02 and I'm not sure if a product emitting lots of methane would be sold to the average consumer.

Edited January 1, 2011 by blackrose

[Bobbybass]

Methane is CH4 - yes thats flammable.

 

Do you have the link? I think it must have been a different type of sprayfoam that this person was using - perhaps cellulose based? I don't think that polyurethane sprayfoam gives off methane because I don't ever remember seeing it labelled as such? Methane is also a greenhouse gas with about 25 times the global warming potential of C02 and I'm not sure if a product emitting lots of methane would be sold to the average consumer.

I can't get the link today (maybe as the date rolled over and I 'exzpired' ) but it was March 2008 Waterways World.

I'm no expert on this..I just wondered if anyone out there knew as I have used the foam in the past and found it useful. ...but don't want to get blown up ?!

Maybe its a different type of foam...like the type you mix 2 parts ?

As you can see from my previious post...someone did the same thing with their house.

 

Happy New Year.

 

Bob

[Chalky]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the move away from CFC propellants in aerosols has led to them using butane or propane as a propellant. Vague memory of the fire retardant spray foam using a non inflammable propellant and the others using butane or similar. That may be what's being referred to.

 

 

Maybe its a different type of foam...like the type you mix 2 parts ?

 

Link

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14516&view=findpost&p=627514

[blackrose]

I can't get the link today (maybe as the date rolled over and I 'exzpired' ) but it was March 2008 Waterways World.

I'm no expert on this..I just wondered if anyone out there knew as I have used the foam in the past and found it useful. ...but don't want to get blown up ?!

Maybe its a different type of foam...like the type you mix 2 parts ?

As you can see from my previious post...someone did the same thing with their house.

 

Happy New Year.

 

Bob

 

If you want to use PU sprayfoam and are concerned about this I'd just have a look at the can or the spec sheet for the product. If methane or any other flammable gas is released it would have to give some sort of warning.

 

The other important thing to remember is to use "fire-rated" PU sprayfoam which has flame-retardant properties once cured. Regular PU sprayfoam ignites and burns very quickly releasing toxic fumes, but a flame retardant grade burns at a much slower rate which will give you time to get out of the boat.

Edited January 1, 2011 by blackrose

[Top cat]

Thanks Guys

 

The flooring is a hard dense material so as you suggest carpeting it may be an easier and less risky way to go. And having already had one major water leak under the floor I realise that allowing it to drain to the back has a lot going for it. That way you know you have a problem and can deal with it.

 

As to what It gives off while curing I suppose it depends what the propellant is and what gas is used to form the bubbles. Every time I used foam its gone every where except where I wanted it to.

 

Off to choose carpet tiles

 

Regards

 

TC

[blackrose]

Thanks Guys

 

The flooring is a hard dense material so as you suggest carpeting it may be an easier and less risky way to go. And having already had one major water leak under the floor I realise that allowing it to drain to the back has a lot going for it. That way you know you have a problem and can deal with it.

 

As to what It gives off while curing I suppose it depends what the propellant is and what gas is used to form the bubbles. Every time I used foam its gone every where except where I wanted it to.

 

Off to choose carpet tiles

 

Regards

 

TC

 

Try buying just two tiles and seeing how it feels underfoot (wearing just socks). Ideally you just put one layer of tiles directly over a hard floor, but if it's still cold then you could either try underlay (bearing in mind the problems I previously outlined), or you could double up on the tiles. Being firmer than underlay you might find that doubled tiles don't shift as much as tiles over underlay when something heavy goes on them.

[Bobbybass]

I know I'm maybe drifting off topic here....

I have several of these flood detectors in crucial spots....under the bed with the calorifier....in the locker with the water pump...under the kitchen sink...

The batteries last well over a year.....

It was great when I had a sudden leak under the bed..(the pipes NOT me !!) ..it started squealing straight away...

Not sure if this is the same type I have....but the one I have has a thin plastic strip with printed circuit type tracks on it. You put a screw through it and fix the plastic plate flush to the floor so that even the samllest damp in the flooring (not just background) sets it off.

 

A tenner well spent !!

 

Link :

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FLOOD-ALERT-WATER-DETECTOR-ALARM-FREE-battery-incl-/170576464906?pt=UK_Safety_Alarms&hash=item27b7264c0a

Edited January 1, 2011 by Bobbybass

[Phil Ambrose]

I 'think'...that sprayfoam...as on hull...is different....as it has to be fireproof and not give off Co2...

I found several sites that say that expanding foam....may give off Co2 ?

 

I bought my present boat about 3 years ago...and had a can of expanding foam ready for some of the jobs...

It was about that time that I read..some guy had done the same thing...and at night there was an explosion due to the fumes.

I have looked for that article..but can't find it...but I abandoned my thuoughts of using it.

 

Bob

 

Surely if web sites are correct about giving of CO2, there would be no risk of explosion?

 

Phil

[Doorman]

The main problem is getting the bloody stuff all over the place except where you want it!

 

I've found that too!