Fradley Pill Boxes

[Derek R.]

That'll be the Home Guard . . .

[MartinClark]

There were a number of pill boxes alongside the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, like this one near Heaton's Bridge, in case the Germans landed on Southport beach.

[Guest]

There were a number of pill boxes alongside the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, like this one near Heaton's Bridge, in case the Germans landed on Southport beach.

 

that's an unusual one for me too - I don't think I've see another '2 storey' one....

[Djuwenda]

Looking carefully at the pillboxes like the Clifton one, or the ones on the Napton flight, I doubt they would have offered much protection from panzer mk4's, unless they had some heavier artillery in support.

 

 

The Napton ones could have been shot from such a close range that the firing would have been accurate enough to destroy them in a couple of shots I should think?

 

edited to say: I also read, that panzer crews were able to make their tanks work underwater using conversion kits originally develloped for the crossing of russian waterways. its is doubtful that narrow, shallow canals would have hindered their progress.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Djuwenda

[luctor et emergo]

Looking carefully at the pillboxes like the Clifton one, or the ones on the Napton flight, I doubt they would have offered much protection from panzer mk4's, unless they had some heavier artillery in support.

 

 

The Napton ones could have been shot from such a close range that the firing would have been accurate enough to destroy them in a couple of shots I should think?

 

edited to say: I also read, that panzer crews were able to make their tanks work underwater using conversion kits originally develloped for the crossing of russian waterways. its is doubtful that narrow, shallow canals would have hindered their progress.

 

 

Donning my WWII German Armour (of which I know a lot more than canals)hat for a moment.

The Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D was the latest version of the Pz.Kpfw.IV series, and at that time was still primarily classed as an Infantrie Support weapon, hence it was armed with the short 24 caliber 75mm gun. It was primarily a tracked artillery piece. The Tauch Panzer (Diving, or under water tank) was an adaptation which was designed specifically for the planned invasion of England. Consisting of a long tube snorkel and simple non-return valve for the exhaust, the vehicle was meant to be launched from special landing craft a short distance from the coast, to drive along the seabed onto the beach, ready for immediate action.

Their use in the invasion of Russia, in 1941, for the crossing of the river Bug, was expedient, because they were there, after the invasion of England was posponed.

 

 

*takes of Pz.Kpfw.IV enthusiast hat again... *

 

Edit:

edited to say: I also read, that panzer crews were able to make their tanks work underwater using conversion kits originally develloped for the crossing of russian waterways. its is doubtful that narrow, shallow canals would have hindered their progress.

 

A steep sides ditch, with an unstable, muddy bottom, would have been a serious obstacle for a Pz.Kpfw.IV, to attempt to cross on it's own. It would have needed a bridge, or at least a ramp in and out. For this purpose, the Brueckenleger (bridge layer) version of the Pz.Kpfw.IV would have been perfect, because it could drop a single span bridge under armour protection. They were originally converted Ausf.C and Ausf.D tanks, simply having had removed (or not fitted) the turret, to help crossing rivers and waterways during the invasion of the Low Countries and France. They were not as effective as expected, partly because the nature of those waterways, and partly because the German 'Blitz Krieg' strategy was so succesfull, that many bridge were not actually blown before they were captured by the German forces.

 

 

A Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D bridgelayer, such as it might have appeared in the English country side in 1940...

Edited October 14, 2010 by luctor et emergo

[Tiny]

Donning my WWII German Armour (of which I know a lot more than canals)hat for a moment.

The Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D was the latest version of the Pz.Kpfw.IV series, and at that time was still primarily classed as an Infantrie Support weapon, hence it was armed with the short 24 caliber 75mm gun. It was primarily a tracked artillery piece. The Tauch Panzer (Diving, or under water tank) was an adaptation which was designed specifically for the planned invasion of England. Consisting of a long tube snorkel and simple non-return valve for the exhaust, the vehicle was meant to be launched from special landing craft a short distance from the coast, to drive along the seabed onto the beach, ready for immediate action.

Their use in the invasion of Russia, in 1941, for the crossing of the river Bug, was expedient, because they were there, after the invasion of England was posponed.

 

 

*takes of Pz.Kpfw.IV enthusiast hat again... *

 

Edit:

 

 

A steep sides ditch, with an unstable, muddy bottom, would have been a serious obstacle for a Pz.Kpfw.IV, to attempt to cross on it's own. It would have needed a bridge, or at least a ramp in and out. For this purpose, the Brueckenleger (bridge layer) version of the Pz.Kpfw.IV would have been perfect, because it could drop a single span bridge under armour protection. They were originally converted Ausf.C and Ausf.D tanks, simply having had removed (or not fitted) the turret, to help crossing rivers and waterways during the invasion of the Low Countries and France. They were not as effective as expected, partly because the nature of those waterways, and partly because the German 'Blitz Krieg' strategy was so succesfull, that many bridge were not actually blown before they were captured by the German forces.

 

 

A Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D bridgelayer, such as it might have appeared in the English country side in 1940...

But are they allowed on the towpath? And if it broke down it would need a lot of BW informed tape!

 

Now if the Germans had had the Russian T34 tank with it's nice wide tracks it could have driven straight along the canal in the canal blasting the bridges out the way and ramming canal boats out the way. (A standard Russian attack method for tanks and planes).

Edited October 14, 2010 by Tiny

[luctor et emergo]

But are they allowed on the towpath? And if it broke down it would need a lot of BW informed tape!

 

Now if the Germans had had the Russian T34 tank with it's nice wide tracks it could have driven straight along the canal in the canal blasting the bridges out the way and ramming canal boats out the way. (A standard Russian attack method for tanks and planes).

 

Ahh, true, but they would still have come unstuck, when a shopping trolly tangles in the tracks....

 

 

edited for smelling...

Edited October 14, 2010 by luctor et emergo

[Bat & Frog]

For years I have tried to think of a use that all these virtually indestructable pill boxes could be put to today, but have not come up with anything worthwhile yet.....

Some have beeen converted into bat hibernation site, with varing success, could also be good places for amphibians and reptiles to overwinter. Shame when you go into some and theres needles, crap, aresols etc littering them. The old bunkers around the airbases (often all that is left ) are often home to hibernating bats, but please do not disturb them, as if woken (which can be 20-30 mins from when you enter) to often they won't survive the winter.

[Tiny]

Ahh, true, but they would still have come unstuck, when a shopping trolly tangles in the tracks....

 

 

edited for smelling...

 

Dammit - and the Russkies would not know where to return them too to complain!

 

Seriously their tanks were so advanced that when they rolled out the Joe Starlin 3 at the Berlin victory parade the US experts said it was a mockup as no tank that big with such a futuristic look could be built - let alone move and fight. When one compares them to the best of british pillbox it shows how a few years of war advance things. Mind you those tanks are long gone while the pill box and the canal still exist.

[CanalWalker]

Some photos of the defences on Stop Line 14 on the L&L Canal in Lancashire: http://www.towpathtreks.co.uk/LLC/canal_war.html

[NB Alnwick]

This topic has been restored at the request of contributors. Nevertheless, certain posts remain hidden because of their insensitive nature.

 

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[RLWP]

How can we ever thank you, Bicycle Repair Man

 

 

Richard

[CanalWalker]

that's an unusual one for me too - I don't think I've see another '2 storey' one....

 

There are a couple of others along that bit of canal, one part of a pub, the other next to a railway bridge.

 

I believe the farmers were given a grant for removing the pill boxes but many were too difficult to remove and the farmers just took the money and put up with them. These defences were against the expected invasion, rather than against the sort of tanks the Germans in Europe. So mostly infantry and light tanks rather than Panzers which wouldnt have been easy to fly into West Lancashire in a glider.

 

Heres a map of some of the defences on Stop Line 14

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=117493743275071151843.00046000b49c1bc43a4e2&ll=53.573754,-2.80426&spn=0.216093,0.676346&z=11

Edited October 26, 2010 by CanalWalker

[journeyperson]

There are a couple of others along that bit of canal, one part of a pub, the other next to a railway bridge.

 

I believe the farmers were given a grant for removing the pill boxes but many were too difficult to remove and the farmers just took the money and put up with them. These defences were against the expected invasion, rather than against the sort of tanks the Germans in Europe. So mostly infantry and light tanks rather than Panzers which wouldnt have been easy to fly into West Lancashire in a glider.

 

Heres a map of some of the defences on Stop Line 14

http://maps.google.c...3,0.676346&z=11

 

The location of those defences seems to suggest that Ainsdale Beach was seen as a landing site but it's a heck of a long way for barges/landing craft to go to get there.

[CanalWalker]

The HomeGuard handbook has 7 invasion plans.

 

1. Encirclement: occupy Scandinavia, Europe, Ireland and Cornwall and some British islands.

2. Head on to London: what it says, go straight to London and take it.

3. Strangulation of London: surround London with plane crash landings, parachutists.

4. Dispersed Naval Attack: Naval landings all around the coasts of England and Wales. This would include Southport beach.

5. Air Attack: dispersed landings by air, plane crash landings, parachutists across the country.

6. England Divided: A belt occupied across the middle of England

7. Blockade: Ireland occupied and a naval blockade.

 

So the West Lancashire defences would be for the dispersed naval attack hitting the beach and the air landings which would by-pass the beach defences.

 

You are right about the barges, they would have had hard work crossing the Channel let alone going up the Irish Sea or across from occupied Ireland. A British destroyer steaming through the invasion force would make a mess of the flat bottomed river boats.

Edited October 26, 2010 by CanalWalker

[journeyperson]

If Hitler had exercised a little patience.

 

The Germans are Coming

[RLWP]

If Hitler had exercised a little patience.

 

The Germans are Coming

 

They already own most of the rail freight business in this country

[Derek R.]

How can we ever thank you, Bicycle Repair Man

 

 

Richard

 

Just tell him - "Tea is ready!"