No more Folly!

[DaveG]

We were at the (excellent) Folly Folk Weekend in August the same day the pub closed. The issue, as it was related to us by several local folk, was a case of the landlord (the owner of the pub, not the person running it who had only been there a few months) continually imposing more and more onerous conditions on the lady trying to run it, including massive rent hikes and constant interference in the day to day operation of the pub - so much so that the tenant was still having to hold down a full-time job to meet the financial demands of the landlord who it seems operates a "jam today" attitude to the business. We did briefly speak to the outgoing tenant who was completely devastated at having to leave.

 

As a side issue, whilst there are, on the face of it, plentiful moorings by the pub these are designated "14 days without charge". According to a BW workman there these have largely been hi-jacked by folk who leave their boats there indefinitely....as he put it "they just drive down here the odd weekend, sit on their boat then b.....r off again". However, he also reckoned that no one from BW ever bothered to enforce the 14 days (not my job, son!)...also said exactly the same happens at Fenny Compton. Certainly when we passed Fenny Compton going "up" there were the same boats moored on the 48 hour section that were there the previous week, including one that was completely tarpaulined over.

 

So, consequently, the Folly was probably getting little benefit from the moorings as for most of the time no one was on these boats. I would suggest that given their location these should really be designated 48 hours and policed properly then the pub, should it ever re-open, at least gets some boat-trade.

 

The beer that weekend was, it has to be said, excellent as was the whole weekend and all for a very worthy cause. The festival for 2011 has just been announced but is looking for a venue within 10 canal miles of Napton, so if anyone knows of a field......

[cotswoldsman]

We were at the (excellent) Folly Folk Weekend in August the same day the pub closed. The issue, as it was related to us by several local folk, was a case of the landlord (the owner of the pub, not the person running it who had only been there a few months) continually imposing more and more onerous conditions on the lady trying to run it, including massive rent hikes and constant interference in the day to day operation of the pub - so much so that the tenant was still having to hold down a full-time job to meet the financial demands of the landlord who it seems operates a "jam today" attitude to the business. We did briefly speak to the outgoing tenant who was completely devastated at having to leave.

 

 

 

Sounds about right for the owner from what i know of him.

[Doorman]

Alcohol is a mind altering drug. According to my daughter, who has an MA in health education, it is more harmful and addictive than heroin. Pub landlords etc. are drug dealers. For some strange reason alcohol is not a proscribed drug.

 

Does that put me in the etc., category then? Although I agree that in the wrong hands, Alcohol can be addictive. But more harmful than Heroin, surely not!

 

I don't recall any of my customers robbing and mugging pensioners, in order to fund their Stella Artois addiction. Everything in moderation (except Heroin of course).

 

As an aside, when I was in industry, the Plant Engineer there had a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. The ultimate consideration for all of his University accomplishments, was that he was an educated moron!

[carlt]

 

I don't recall any of my customers robbing and mugging pensioners, in order to fund their Stella Artois addiction. Everything in moderation (except Heroin of course).

 

The only reason Heroin addicts commit crime is because you can't go to the pub or off-licence, for a fix.

 

Legalise drugs and you eradicate drug crime (and undercutting the dealers will put an end to their business, too)

 

I do know one person who stole to feed his Special Brew habit, btw, and he called it "liquid smack".

[Doorman]

The only reason Heroin addicts commit crime is because you can't go to the pub or off-license, for a fix.

 

Legalise drugs and you eradicate drug crime (and undercutting the dealers will put an end to their business, too)

 

I do know one person who stole to feed his Special Brew habit, btw, and he called it "liquid smack".

 

The true reason that Heroin addicts commit crime, is because it is a lethal addiction that far outweighs a reliance on alcohol. There are probably just as many drug dealers sniveling about our streets than there are pubs and off-licenses.

 

I recall once intending to relocate to the lake district with my family. One of our primary concerns was the standard of education in that area. When visiting the High School in Windermere, I was astounded to be informed by one of the students, that there was a drug problem that even emanated from the feeder schools in the locality. In all of my years, I can never remember Pub landlords, or, Off-license proprietors, pushing alcohol through school railings in order to create the next generation of drinkers!

 

Whether legalizing drugs will lead to eradicating drug crime, is debatable. It will of course, allow governments to place a tax on the proceeds. If it put an end to the scum who trade their wares with such overbearing arrogance, it would be a worthwhile move.

 

With regard to the person who stole to fund his Special Brew habit, he should have gone to his local Bargain Booze store. He would have had to steal less often, given the deals we used to have on that poison!

 

In short, to attempt to equate drug addiction, with alcohol addiction, is rather far fetched and misguided.

[carlt]

In all of my years, I can never remember Pub landlords, or, Off-license proprietors, pushing alcohol through school railings in order to create the next generation of drinkers!

 

Yes I have to concede that, during America's prohibition years, there was never any drink related crime....Oh, hang on, No I don't.

 

Prohibition of alcohol made the Mafia very rich indeed by dealing alcohol, turned ordinary citizens into criminals and killed and blinded thousands of users, when they scored adulterated and badly made booze, just like any other prohibited drug.

Edited October 4, 2010 by carlt

[Doorman]

Yes I have to concede that, during America's prohibition years, there was never any drink related crime....Oh, hang on, No I don't.

 

Prohibition of alcohol made the Mafia very rich indeed by dealing alcohol, turned ordinary citizens into criminals and killed and blinded thousands of users, when they scored adulterated and badly made booze, just like any other prohibited drug.

 

In reading the first six words of your statement, I thought I was on Heroin. Carl, conceding to a pertinent point, surely not!

 

Interesting analogy, did your research uncover evidence of Bootleggers using primary school children as agents of alcohol distribution though? This present day assortment of drug dealing thugs are lower than a snakes belly and although alcohol can be perceived as a form of addiction, it can never be compared to that of class 'A' drugs. Surely even you can concede on that statement

 

One final point I neglected to mention in a previous post. While running my three Bargain Booze outlets, I had a cumulative

customer base of nine thousand customers, five of which were confirmed alcoholics and dissuaded from buying from the stores. During that time, my shops were attacked on numerous occasions, each time, the staff were held to ransom by some knife or gun wielding thug, who was high on drugs. Not once did we have occasion to be robbed by someone who was pissed!

 

Is there a moral to that story?

 

It would definitely be a Folly to believe that Pub landlords and Off-license proprietors could be placed on a par with drug dealers, especially when ones sister is a member of that disgusting group of people known as Licensed Victualers.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Doorman

[carlt]

During that time, my shops were attacked on numerous occasions, each time, the staff were held to ransom by some knife or gun wielding thug, who was high on drugs. Not once did we have occasion to be robbed by someone who was pissed!

 

Is there a moral to that story?

Of course there is.

 

If Alcohol was illegal then there would be just as much dealing, trafficking, illegal production, exploitation of minors as any other illegal, addictive substance.

 

Interesting analogy, did your research uncover evidence of Bootleggers using primary school children as agents of alcohol distribution though?

Another interesting analogy. When "alcopops" were introduced, into this country, there was much criticism of the producers and their marketing men for targeting children and they were forced to change their advertising strategies.

[Athy]

There was similar criticism of Hofmeister lager with its cuddly, child-friendly "George The Bear" character - though, given its strength of just over 3% alcohol, it must have been difficult for even children to get drunk on it.

[Doorman]

Of course there is.

 

If Alcohol was illegal then there would be just as much dealing, trafficking, illegal production, exploitation of minors as any other illegal, addictive substance.

 

 

Another interesting analogy. When "alcopops" were introduced, into this country, there was much criticism of the producers and their marketing men for targeting children and they were forced to change their advertising strategies.

 

As a responsible retailer of alcohol, I was one of the forerunners within the Bargain Booze community, who introduced a voluntary 'over 21' rule to my shops. In contrast, the friendly Asian drinks retailer next door, would happily serve any one who could venture past his threshold, regardless of age!

 

Do you think that a drug dealer would offer such a concerning stance as I did, while negotiating his next deal, not so!

 

Whilst obviously straying way off topic, this jousting match should be better placed else were, maybe under the title of

'Making a Mountain Out of a Molehill'.

 

Class 'A' drugs V's alcohol. Nothing worthy of a comparison, in my extremely humble opinion.

[carlt]

As a responsible retailer of alcohol, I was one of the forerunners within the Bargain Booze community, who introduced a voluntary 'over 21' rule to my shops.

Again you are confusing the issue.

 

If alcohol was illegal there would be no "responsible retailer", only dealers.

 

In contrast, the friendly Asian drinks retailer next door, would happily serve any one who could venture past his threshold, regardless of age!

So even though it is legal you concede that there are people who are willing to peddle it to minors? Maybe not quite...

 

In all of my years, I can never remember Pub landlords, or, Off-license proprietors, pushing alcohol through school railings in order to create the next generation of drinkers!

...but close enough to be the next step, if alcohol were prohibited.

[Doorman]

Again you are confusing the issue.

 

If alcohol was illegal there would be no "responsible retailer", only dealers.

 

 

So even though it is legal you concede that there are people who are willing to peddle it to minors? Maybe not quite...

 

 

...but close enough to be the next step, if alcohol were prohibited.

 

Really Carl, you are clutching at straws now to continue this 'off-topic' topic.

 

Yawn, I was simply enforcing the fact that there are people in the drinks retail trade who are responsible!

 

With regard to your quote 'people who are willing to trade to minors', I didn't say people, I said Asian. People, decent people, have ethics. In my experience, there's a short supply of ethics or morals when quoting that section of society.

 

Now, before you explode on your immigrant trail, let me get on with my day, I'm a very busy Bigot you know.

[carlt]

Really Carl, you are clutching at straws now to continue this 'off-topic' topic.

 

Yawn, I was simply enforcing the fact that there are people in the drinks retail trade who are responsible!

 

With regard to your quote 'people who are willing to trade to minors', I didn't say people, I said Asian. People, decent people, have ethics. In my experience, there's a short supply of ethics or morals when quoting that section of society.

 

Now, before you explode on your immigrant trail, let me get on with my day, I'm a very busy Bigot you know.

I am not criticising the drinks industry, I am merely saying that if that particular drug was prohibited it would have exactly the same problems as prohibited drugs. I am just as opposed to alcohol prohibition as I am any other mind altering substance.

 

Heroin, as a substance, is pretty harmless, compared to alcohol.

 

There is little or no violent crime, associated with the use of heroin, as opposed to the acquisition, of the drug, owing to its illegal status, unlike alcohol, the use of which is associated with a huge proportion of all violent crime.

 

It is far less harmful to the body, than alcohol. It's main problem being the inconsistency of strength and it being cut with toxic substances...something that would not happen, if it was produced legally, unlike alcohol which, in its legal state, is a poison.

 

The main problem with heroin is not its use but its illegality.

 

As to your racist comments they merely indicate that you have the same attitude towards different people, as you do different drugs but I have yet to come across an Asian smack dealer, responsible or otherwise.

Edited October 5, 2010 by carlt

[AlanH]

Does that put me in the etc., category then? Although I agree that in the wrong hands, Alcohol can be addictive. But more harmful than Heroin, surely not!

I don't recall any of my customers robbing and mugging pensioners, in order to fund their Stella Artois addiction. Everything in moderation (except Heroin of course).

 

As an aside, when I was in industry, the Plant Engineer there had a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. The ultimate consideration for all of his University accomplishments, was that he was an educated moron!

And where are your qualifications to confirm this? My daughter is an expert - are you? Carl is quite right. The only reason that alcohol may not cause quite as much crime is that it is not proscribed and is therefore relatively cheap. Committing a crime in order to raise money to buy hard drugs may be more prevalent than doing so to buy alcohol but I bet the number of crimes committed whilst under the influence of hard drugs are far fewer than those committed by drunks.

 

Alcohol is a mind altering addictive drug. That is a fact. If you sell alcohol, then you are drug dealing albeit legally.

 

So you are intelligent enough to realise that anyone who has studied a subject to a postgraduate level is a moron? I suppose that applies to doctors, lawyers, scientists, Stephen Hawkin and all academics.

Edited October 5, 2010 by AlanH

[AlanH]

 

It is far less harmful to the body, than alcohol. It's main problem being the inconsistency of strength and it being cut with toxic substances...something that would not happen, if it was produced legally, unlike alcohol which, in its legal state, is a poison.

 

The main problem with heroin is not its use but its illegality.

 

 

That is exactly what my daughter said.

Edited October 5, 2010 by AlanH

[Laurie Booth]

We too, lament the closure of such pubs. But, as another member has rightly indicated, if the landlords/owners fail to maintain standards, whether hygiene or otherwise, then unfortunately, they get what they deserve! In today's cut throat business world, it's a case of 'do or die'. So many businesses fail to recognise this simple maxim.

 

As an aside, we ventured into a Toby Inn at Festival Park in Stoke yesterday. Nestling alongside the marina, this corporate hostelry, with it's automated style of service, enjoys good business through simple practice. They offer a week day carvery for £5.25p.

 

The ale isn't spectacular, but for that price, the food is excellent value. Needless to say, the place is very well patronized. Another example of commercial evolution is Wetherspoon's. Typical cheap and cheerful venues and although populated mostly by wrinklies like us, they provide an affordable venue for a drink and a chat.

 

It would be a sorry day if the likes of The Swan at Fradley Junction was ever to close, we would drink there all day if it meant survival for the place

 

Mike (hic)

I'd be very happy for the Swan at Fradley to close.

[Laurie Booth]

Does that put me in the etc., category then? Although I agree that in the wrong hands, Alcohol can be addictive. But more harmful than Heroin, surely not!

 

I don't recall any of my customers robbing and mugging pensioners, in order to fund their Stella Artois addiction. Everything in moderation (except Heroin of course).

 

As an aside, when I was in industry, the Plant Engineer there had a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. The ultimate consideration for all of his University accomplishments, was that he was an educated moron!

I agree 100%

[carlt]

I agree 100%

and yet you must acknowledge that more violent crime is carried out by people under the influence of alcohol, than people under the influence of Heroin (because they are usually too monged out, to actually be aggressive).

 

Whilst the town centre streets are full of drinkers beating each other, and innocent people, up, the average smackhead is gouching under a canal bridge, doing nobody but himself harm.

 

If you could buy a hit of heroin, over the counter, then violent crime, by smackheads, would cease...but the Friday night alcohol fuelled violence would continue.

Edited October 5, 2010 by carlt

[Laurie Booth]

and yet you must acknowledge that more violent crime is carried out by people under the influence of alcohol, than people under the influence of Heroin (because they are usually too monged out, to actually be aggressive).

 

Whilst the town centre streets are full of drinkers beating each other, and innocent people, up, the average smackhead is gauching under a canal bridge, doing nobody but himself harm.

 

If you could buy a hit of heroin, over the counter, then violent crime, by smackheads, would cease...but the Friday night alcohol fuelled violence would continue.

Must admit you do have a good point, perhaps we should legalize all drugs.

[carlt]

Must admit you do have a good point, perhaps we should legalize all drugs.

Yes I believe we should.

 

It seems illogical that two of the most addictive and toxic drugs are legal yet others are prohibited.

[AlanH]

Must admit you do have a good point, perhaps we should legalize all drugs.

There is a strong argument for doing so.

 

Interesting reading

Edited October 5, 2010 by AlanH

[carlt]

Anyway...When me and AlanH agree on something it must mean that there is no opposing argument, for one of us to defend.

[Little Gold Nugget]

And where are your qualifications to confirm this? My daughter is an expert - are you? Carl is quite right. The only reason that alcohol may not cause quite as much crime is that it is not proscribed and is therefore relatively cheap. Committing a crime in order to raise money to buy hard drugs may be more prevalent than doing so to buy alcohol but I bet the number of crimes committed whilst under the influence of hard drugs are far fewer than those committed by drunks.

 

Alcohol is a mind altering addictive drug. That is a fact. If you sell alcohol, then you are drug dealing albeit legally.

 

So you are intelligent enough to realise that anyone who has studied a subject to a postgraduate level is a moron? I suppose that applies to doctors, lawyers, scientists, Stephen Hawkin and all academics.

 

 

Reluctantly returns to the arena.

 

My qualifications to have an opinion on this subject are my life experience. No amount of academic qualifications can substitute for real life experience! I have been fortunate, or, unfortunate, depending on your point of view, to have seen the effects of both alcohol and drug addiction first hand.

 

As I stated previously, whilst running my drinks retail outlets, our shops were raided by drug fueled thugs who assaulted and degraded my staff to a level were they required counseling. They never required such remedial treatment after dealing with the occasional drunk.

 

Please get this subject in context and enjoy a little realism.

 

Alcohol, in the wrong hands, can be dangerous, but not as dangerous as someone who's pointing a loaded gun at your face and doesn't even know what planet he's on!

 

By the way, the Plant Manager was also touted as an expert. His expertise lasted no more than 12 months, before he was relegated to gardening leave and finally awarded a gold plated map of the locality, highlighting where the job centre could be found!

[carlt]

 

Please get this subject in context and enjoy a little realism.

 

Alcohol, in the wrong hands, can be dangerous, but not as dangerous as someone who's pointing a loaded gun at your face and doesn't even know what planet he's on!

You're absolutely right!

 

So if heroin is made legal, like the far more dangerous drug, alcohol, people will not have to commit crime, in order to feed their addiction.

 

Alcohol fuelled violence will still remain...Heroin fuelled violence will go away.

[Little Gold Nugget]

As to your racist comments they merely indicate that you have the same attitude towards different people, as you do different drugs but I have yet to come across an Asian smack dealer, responsible or otherwise.

 

My word, where have you been hiding all of those years?

 

They would sell their granny for a dime.

 

My friendly Asian neighbour resorted to sourcing alcohol 'out of bond', in order to compete with me. Then, when that failed, he moved on to drug dealing, regardless of the age of his customers. Following that enterprise, he graduated to people trafficking, should I continue?

 

Prior to regarding me as his enemy (in my own country, not his) we used to socialise together. During that period, he dropped his guard and boasted about the many illegal moves that he and his family had made to defraud innocent people of their hard earned cash.

 

I helped him extend his shop, my wife sat with his, all night during her traumatic labour period and our reward?, betrayal and a vein attempt to displace me from my business.

 

Please don't ask me to trust these people.

 

Completely off topic I know. I did my best to re-align this thread to its origins, but sadly to no avail .

 

Mustaffa Rest.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Little Gold Nugget