How much is a residential mooring worth?

[Richard10002]

I've spent the past 30 years sailing on the high seas.... owning my own 44ft yacht from 2006 until earlier this year, sailing it to Malta and back, during that period, and living on it for a large part of the 4 years.... so I'm familiar with boats in general but I'm now looking to switch to the slower pace of the canals. I live in Manchester, and dont plan to live on the NB, but would probably spend a few days a week on board.

 

I'm going to look at a 57ft Harbourough Marine NB tomorrow. It's moored at Baltimore Marina in Todmorden, and I understand the buyer can keep the mooring, which costs £120 per month, (i.e. £1500 p.a.). It's a linear mooring, has power and phone line, as well as a small shed, space for a table and chairs etc. - and it all looks quite nice. Also, the marina seems quite secure - the gate was padlocked when we got there today for a recce, so I could only look at the boat and marina from the towpath opposite.

 

The seller is asking £20,000, and it doesnt look too special from the outside, but the fact that it "comes with residential mooring", seems quite attractive.

 

The area seems quite nice, with Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, and such, so I'm sure I'd be happy with the location, and I can always move after a year or so if I find it doesnt suit.

 

I've heard of people buying boats, just to get the mooring, so I'm wondering how much value I might attach to the mooring.

 

I know the answer could be "How long is a piece of string?", but I'm just looking for a bit of guidance.

 

I dont think I'm going to buy the first boat I look at, but I dont want to miss what could be a good deal.

[Dawnie]

I've spent the past 30 years sailing on the high seas.... owning my own 44ft yacht from 2006 until earlier this year, sailing it to Malta and back, during that period, and living on it for a large part of the 4 years.... so I'm familiar with boats in general but I'm now looking to switch to the slower pace of the canals. I live in Manchester, and dont plan to live on the NB, but would probably spend a few days a week on board.

 

I'm going to look at a 57ft Harbourough Marine NB tomorrow. It's moored at Baltimore Marina in Todmorden, and I understand the buyer can keep the mooring, which costs £120 per month, (i.e. £1500 p.a.). It's a linear mooring, has power and phone line, as well as a small shed, space for a table and chairs etc. - and it all looks quite nice. Also, the marina seems quite secure - the gate was padlocked when we got there today for a recce, so I could only look at the boat and marina from the towpath opposite.

 

The seller is asking £20,000, and it doesnt look too special from the outside, but the fact that it "comes with residential mooring", seems quite attractive.

 

The area seems quite nice, with Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, and such, so I'm sure I'd be happy with the location, and I can always move after a year or so if I find it doesnt suit.

 

I've heard of people buying boats, just to get the mooring, so I'm wondering how much value I might attach to the mooring.

 

I know the answer could be "How long is a piece of string?", but I'm just looking for a bit of guidance.

 

I dont think I'm going to buy the first boat I look at, but I dont want to miss what could be a good deal.

 

Worth checking with the marina that the mooring is in fact transferable, could be just a sales ploy

[ymu]

If you're looking to buy a boat with a mooring, you will probably want to sell the boat and get a boat you actually want to put on it. As said, you must check with the marina that the mooring will come with the boat, but a lot are happy with this arrangement as it saves them voids and helps sell the boat (if they're also brokers).

 

If it's a Harborough Marine, it's probably a GRP top, which dramatically reduces the value. £20k could be reasonable, it could be way over the top. Depends on the boat - age, condition of hull, engine, quality of fitout. You should get a survey anyway, and you can ask the surveyor for a valuation.

 

GRP tops are harder to sell if you went that route - but as with anything, they will sell at the right price.

 

Oh, and there is no defined premium for the mooring, beyond the competition - ie what it is worth to you and any other interested parties.

 

If you want opinions on what the boat is worth, posting an advert will help. If there is one online, that is.

 

If you're not sure you'll stay there long-term, the mooring might be worth no premium at all to you. You would have to sell your boat with the mooring to get the premium back.

[Richard10002]

Thanks for the replies - Agree that I need to check I can have the mooring.

 

Here's the ad on ebay:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Narrowboat-57ft-Harb...3#ht_1178wt_930

 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[ymu]

Looks OK - fairly well equipped, nice spot. We were looking at longer boats so I'd be very hazy on value - there are a lot more 57' boats around, but also more people wanting to buy them, and it is a GRP cabin. That probably knocks around £10k off compared to all steel, but others will know more. I do like Harborough Marines though - even with the GRP. We saw one very similar but with a spectacularly beautiful fit out - 62' on for £36k, but I think that was overpriced by mebbe £10k - ie she was wanting what it might have been worth with a steel cabin.

 

I'd think £20k is a bit steep. The reserve on Ebay is £7,500 which is presumably her lower limit (although people seem to do odd things with boats on Ebay).

 

It's an old hull so a survey is essential - and don't take them up on the offer to arrange the survey for you. Choose your own surveyor, and be there when the survey is done if at all possible so you can talk through any concerns.

 

Check out the Harborough Marines here, and see how they compare on age/length/condition/etc. It'll give you some idea of what similar boats are on for - although getting an idea of what they sell for takes a bit of watching. A lot of boats are way overpriced on there, so you need to look at the range of prices - and none of them will be underpriced! It'll give you ammunition for making an offer anyway - always helps if you can talk them through why you think it's worth what you're offering.

Edited August 22, 2010 by ymu

[Lady Muck]

We get alot of this in London, over inflated prices because the boat comes with the right to rent a moorings that will never actually be yours to own. We see 1970's or 80s boats that need alot of work, being put up for sale for £60k, £80k sometimes even more.

 

But in reality, I see these boats remain for sale for a very long time or the vendor ends up having to drop the price. No marine mortgage broker will ever lend you anymore than what the actual boat is worth, they will not lend you that extra money so you can buy the right to moor you boat on a mooring, so the vendor is stuck with looking for someone who has the actual cash. If they had that much cash, would they want to live on a boat?

 

This was the situation with our boat. It was too expensive for personal loan, we came along and wanted to buy with a marine mortgage apparently we weren't the only ones. So he was forced to drop the price to what the boat was actually worth and no more in order to sell.

 

So to answer your question (kind of) how much is a residential mooring worth? A marine mortgage broker would say, 'nothing.'

 

Obviously, this boat is £20k, so it's a bit different.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Lady Muck

[Richard10002]

Saw the boat and decided it wasnt for me. Didnt really like the "flexible" GRP top, and it was a fairly basic fit out which needed quite a bit of finishing off. I'm sure I'll get a much nicer fitted boat for my "up to" £20k budget, but I'll then have the hassle of finding a mooring.

 

Thanks to all for the replies. At least I'm not a virgin viewer anymore. Quite a few similarities to the seagoing vessels I'm used to.

 

Richard

[ymu]

Saw the boat and decided it wasnt for me. Didnt really like the "flexible" GRP top, and it was a fairly basic fit out which needed quite a bit of finishing off. I'm sure I'll get a much nicer fitted boat for my "up to" £20k budget, but I'll then have the hassle of finding a mooring.

 

Thanks to all for the replies. At least I'm not a virgin viewer anymore. Quite a few similarities to the seagoing vessels I'm used to.

 

Richard

How badly do you need the mooring? It can take a long time - potentially years - but I don't know about availability in your area. You don't have to liveaboard to CC, as long as you can get to the boat to move it every fortnight.

 

Do you know about the BW mooring auctions? If not, it's easy to find on their site and a fairly easy system to use. They tell you the reserve and what the current rental is. You submit the maximum you're prepared to pay and it does an ebay style auction amongst bidders - if you're the highest bidder, the rental will be a little higher than the next highest bidder, not the maximum you put in.

 

They're only on there for 2 weeks, so you'd need to check it out fairly frequently and be prepared to get down there to check the place out if you don't already know it.

[Richard10002]

How badly do you need the mooring? It can take a long time - potentially years - but I don't know about availability in your area. You don't have to liveaboard to CC, as long as you can get to the boat to move it every fortnight.

 

Do you know about the BW mooring auctions? If not, it's easy to find on their site and a fairly easy system to use. They tell you the reserve and what the current rental is. You submit the maximum you're prepared to pay and it does an ebay style auction amongst bidders - if you're the highest bidder, the rental will be a little higher than the next highest bidder, not the maximum you put in.

 

They're only on there for 2 weeks, so you'd need to check it out fairly frequently and be prepared to get down there to check the place out if you don't already know it.

 

Thanks for the pointers:

 

In reality, I dont "need" a mooring yet, as I dont have a boat If this was round the corner on The Bridgewater at Stretford or Lymm, I might pull out the stops to get it.

 

I'm aware of BW auctions, and am keeping an eye on them.

 

Worst case scenario, if I find a boat without a local mooring available, I'll be hoping to find a leisure marina space for what seems to be the usual £2k or so.

 

Just started looking, so not going to jump without looking.... unless something was an incredible deal/opportunity.

[Amduck]

You probably know this, but I didn't when I started out, so I'll say it anyway just in case.

 

If you're only planning to spend a few nights a week on board, you don't need a residential mooring, only a leisure one. As long as you have an address elsewhere, I think there are only a few places that restrict how many nights you can spend aboard, and I'm not sure how these are policed.

[Lady Muck]

Just saw this advert on t'duck. Is this guy pulling a fast one? Looks like a rented mooring to me.

 

the 'cash only' and the list of what you get for your £350,000 - Boat, houseboat license and mooring license £350,000. Instantly rings alarm bells.

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=158816

[ymu]

It's not cash only, it's cash buyers only. Meaning, noone who needs to get a loan because they will inevitably fail and it will go back on the market again.

 

He'll be lucky though, for £350k.

[Lady Muck]

It's not cash only, it's cash buyers only. Meaning, noone who needs to get a loan because they will inevitably fail and it will go back on the market again.

 

Well, yeah, that's what I mean, you can't sell something that you don't own. Is that the worlds most expensive Liverpool Boat. Is it an owner fit out as well?

[ymu]

Well, yeah, that's what I mean, you can't sell something that you don't own. Is that the worlds most expensive Liverpool Boat. Is it an owner fit out as well?

I would imagine he's being hopelessly optimistic about the investment value of mooring rights in Notting Hill.

[Hippoclides]

This one seemed even fishier to me:

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=155517

 

There's no boat involved. They're asking £30k to "buy" the right to pay mooring fees to the landowner.

 

That possibly reflects the premium for securing a mooring on (I think) Ash Island but it appears that basically they're asking for a enormous fee to move their own boat out of the way and moor somewhere else! Not surprised they say not to contact the island's owner directly!

[Lady Muck]

This one seemed even fishier to me:

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=155517

 

There's no boat involved. They're asking £30k to "buy" the right to pay mooring fees to the landowner.

 

That possibly reflects the premium for securing a mooring on (I think) Ash Island but it appears that basically they're asking for a enormous fee to move their own boat out of the way and moor somewhere else! Not surprised they say not to contact the island's owner directly!

 

That's bonkers - does anyone actually do this, I wonder? Pay money for nothing?

[ymu]

This one seemed even fishier to me:

 

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=155517

 

There's no boat involved. They're asking £30k to "buy" the right to pay mooring fees to the landowner.

 

That possibly reflects the premium for securing a mooring on (I think) Ash Island but it appears that basically they're asking for a enormous fee to move their own boat out of the way and moor somewhere else! Not surprised they say not to contact the island's owner directly!

When we were first ringing around investigating the mooring situation, we were told by one guy who answered the lock-keeper's phone that a £20k backhander was routine to secure moorings there. Not gonna say which lock-keeper's phone because the guy was well dodgy and I have no wish to cause problems for anyone.

 

That kind of premium seems to be routine on boats being sold with moorings around the Oxford area, but it seems unlikely that whoever owns the moorings is happy to see their vacating moorers take that kind of money to take the hassle of letting a vacancy off their hands...

[Hippoclides]

When we were first ringing around investigating the mooring situation, we were told by one guy who answered the lock-keeper's phone that a £20k backhander was routine to secure moorings there. Not gonna say which lock-keeper's phone because the guy was well dodgy and I have no wish to cause problems for anyone.

 

That kind of premium seems to be routine on boats being sold with moorings around the Oxford area, but it seems unlikely that whoever owns the moorings is happy to see their vacating moorers take that kind of money to take the hassle of letting a vacancy off their hands...

 

If you've got any tips on how to go about finding affordable residential moorings (whether official or, er, not) in the South East I'd certainly appreciate them!

 

At the moment the choice seems to be between buying an overpriced boat that I don't want, paying a backhander I can't afford (and wouldn't if I could), or paying crazy fees to stay in one of the nice new marinas (like MDL's) which are probably non-residential anyway.

[ymu]

If you've got any tips on how to go about finding affordable residential moorings (whether official or, er, not) in the South East I'd certainly appreciate them!

 

At the moment the choice seems to be between buying an overpriced boat that I don't want, paying a backhander I can't afford (and wouldn't if I could), or paying crazy fees to stay in one of the nice new marinas (like MDL's) which are probably non-residential anyway.

We discovered that continuous cruising suited us very well indeed, so no great tips I'm afraid - apart from considering CCing if it would work for you. Loads of places within an hour and a half's drive of Oxford, and I don't need to go into work that often anyway.

 

Have seen some perfectly doable moorings on the BW site though, if you mean commutersville and not central London. I'd recommend browsing every listing they have every few days - I never seemed to get on very well with the search facility, and if it's a broad area you'd be happy with it's easier than doing it by waterway. They're only up there for 2 weeks, so you will need to look regularly to catch everything.

[Dekazer]

If you've got any tips on how to go about finding affordable residential moorings (whether official or, er, not) in the South East I'd certainly appreciate them!

 

At the moment the choice seems to be between buying an overpriced boat that I don't want, paying a backhander I can't afford (and wouldn't if I could), or paying crazy fees to stay in one of the nice new marinas (like MDL's) which are probably non-residential anyway.

 

I don't know what you mean by south east or by affordable, but there are going to be a lot of moorings coming to auction here: https://www.bwmooringvacancies.com/search/vacancy_details.php?type=basic&id=1759

 

By my reckoning there are at least another 8 vacant berths on the site that haven't yet been advertised.

[Hippoclides]

I don't know what you mean by south east or by affordable, but there are going to be a lot of moorings coming to auction here: https://www.bwmooringvacancies.com/search/vacancy_details.php?type=basic&id=1759

 

By my reckoning there are at least another 8 vacant berths on the site that haven't yet been advertised.

 

Thanks - I had seen the three already auctioned (too small for the size of boat I'm thinking of, although perhaps I'll have to change my ideas there) and while the marina is not totally ideal in terms of location or cost, it is a possibility, so I'll keep watching. Good to know more will be on the way, although I'm amazed that BW appears to leave them empty for so long. I've set my Waterscape account to alert for all moorings coming up so I don't risk missing any that might suit.

 

I am considering CCing but it may not suit OH's work committments... nor my current lack of boating experience

 

Ho-hum, guess I should worry about selling the house first.