Building a new Wooden Boat

[Newold]

Hi everyone.

Probably a bit of a strange thing to discuss but I wonder if some of you would share your thoughts on this subject.

I am confident at building wooden structures having done my fair share of wood work in the building trade.

I have been sifting around for ages now for a decent boat of around 23 foot to use on the canals.

Some of the boats going for around 5k at 22 foot to 24 foot are just old fiberglass mouldy messy stinky skips that just look horrible and need even more money spending on them.

Then the steel boats are seriously over priced and need surveys.

 

Does anyone know how well a newly built wooden boat that looks something like a narrowboat covered with epoxy and fiberglass would wear on the canals today?

I have a good contact for timber and plywood so can get the materials at a reasonable price and considering spending the winter months building one from some plans I have found?

Thanks.

[carlt]

If you're going to cover it with fibreglas, why bother with the wood?

 

A wooden boat would do just fine, on the canal system, I'd be wary about sheathing it in fibreglass, though, unless you can do it under factory conditions.

 

What plans are you considering?

[Mikeonb4c]

Hi everyone.

Probably a bit of a strange thing to discuss but I wonder if some of you would share your thoughts on this subject.

I am confident at building wooden structures having done my fair share of wood work in the building trade.

I have been sifting around for ages now for a decent boat of around 23 foot to use on the canals.

Some of the boats going for around 5k at 22 foot to 24 foot are just old fiberglass mouldy messy stinky skips that just look horrible and need even more money spending on them.

Then the steel boats are seriously over priced and need surveys.

 

Does anyone know how well a newly built wooden boat that looks something like a narrowboat covered with epoxy and fiberglass would wear on the canals today?

I have a good contact for timber and plywood so can get the materials at a reasonable price and considering spending the winter months building one from some plans I have found?

Thanks.

 

This may not apply so much with canal boats , but I'm a Bermudian, and I can recall talking with a Bermudian fisherman when I was young. He had built a serious (big) wooden offshore fishing boat for taking people on trips. I'll never forget him telling me Bermudians with carpentry skills who fancied they could build their own fishing boat. It took but one ruun out to sea in their new creation to discover that boatbuilding skill was about more than just good carpentry.

[Newold]

If you're going to cover it with fibreglas, why bother with the wood?

 

A wooden boat would do just fine, on the canal system, I'd be wary about sheathing it in fibreglass, though, unless you can do it under factory conditions.

 

What plans are you considering?

 

Hi I built a sailing dingy about four years ago using ply and sheathed it in my kitchen so I understand what you mean about factory conditions Carl as the epoxy needs warms temps to go off.

I did use West epoxy though which is far better than other I have used.

The plans I am considering although I cant help something even simpler could be done are the 23 foot canal cruiser further down the page here http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mc2130.htm is what I am considering.

I do already have an outboard but I would like to conseal it somehow.

 

So If I were not to use epoxy Carl how would you suggest protecting the plywood?

I was thinking wood for structral strength also Carl and a less complicated building process than a full fiberglass boat construction.

Plus I do love the look of wooden boats.

 

Yes Mike I understand your point entirely and you are most right.

I do think a canal boat going no more than 4 mph can be a lot less sophisticated in design than a sailing boat that takes on all kinds of pressures from diferent angles and weather.

Thanks.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Newold

[Yoda]

Canals might have a limit of 4mph but are you going to take your wooden wonder on the river system as well?

[Newold]

Canals might have a limit of 4mph but are you going to take your wooden wonder on the river system as well?

I am not sure Yoda.

Is there something you are trying to make me aware of I may have overlooked?

As far as canal boats go from what I have read over the years there is nothing sophisticated in their design structure.

[Mikeonb4c]

Yes Mike I understand your point entirely and you are most right.

I do think a canal boat going no more than 4 mph can be a lot less sophisticated in design than a sailing boat that takes on all kinds of pressures from diferent angles and weather.

Thanks.

 

Absolutely. I'm an outsider on all this (never built a boat!), but I guess some issues with canal boats would be ensuring that bumping and collisions didn't compromise the structure or any epoxy skinning of the wood, as well as remembering how many years the hull needs to last especially where it may not be out of the water for inspection as often as a dinghy is.

[RLWP]

The speed limit may only be 4mph, but that's not all the forces you'll come across. I'd imagine a 23' boat with an 8" draft is going to be very sensitive to cross winds

 

Richard

[Newold]

Absolutely. I'm an outsider on all this (never built a boat!), but I guess some issues with canal boats would be ensuring that bumping and collisions didn't compromise the structure or any epoxy skinning of the wood, as well as remembering how many years the hull needs to last especially where it may not be out of the water for inspection as often as a dinghy is.

 

IM with you on that one Mike with all the bangs and knocks which is why I feel wood would be better than fiberglass.

I must say though epoxy isnt that easy to scrape off but if the boat was of trailerable size then perhaps it could be more readily inspected for such damage.

So I guess a major consideration is inspecting the hull more often.

 

The speed limit may only be 4mph, but that's not all the forces you'll come across. I'd imagine a 23' boat with an 8" draft is going to be very sensitive to cross winds

 

Richard

I totally agree Richard but those winds are not hitting a sail causing such pressure a sailing boat takes on.

I am talking about a wooden boat that is made from a minimum of 2 b 2 box section structure design to take on diagonal pressure.

This will be far stronger than a dawncraft 24 for example in windy conditions.

[Proper Job]

Boats made from marine ply were a common site on the canal many years ago.

 

Our first canal cruiser was a marine ply 25' centre cockpit boat with an inboard engine (stuart turner twin).

 

No reason why the same can't be built today.

[Newold]

Boats made from marine ply were a common site on the canal many years ago.

 

Our first canal cruiser was a marine ply 25' centre cockpit boat with an inboard engine (stuart turner twin).

 

No reason why the same can't be built today.

Do you have any pictures by any chance Proper Job?

Thanks.

[carlt]

So If I were not to use epoxy Carl how would you suggest protecting the plywood?

I was thinking wood for structral strength also Carl and a less complicated building process than a full fiberglass boat construction.

Plus I do love the look of wooden boats.

 

Yes Mike I understand your point entirely and you are most right.

I do think a canal boat going no more than 4 mph can be a lot less sophisticated in design than a sailing boat that takes on all kinds of pressures from diferent angles and weather.

Thanks.

Sorry I thought you were on about a planked, rather than ply, boat.

 

Yes I would use the West System, or similar,on this design.

 

Iirc the boat you're looking at was designed by a member, here, Anthony, who sadly, doesn't post here any more, after a row with me about god.

 

 

 

Here's the link to his topic (about the boat, not imaginary friends).

 

Edited to add the link: Clicky

Edited July 26, 2010 by carlt

[Newold]

Sorry I thought you were on about a planked, rather than ply, boat.

 

Yes I would use the West System, or similar,on this design.

 

Iirc the boat you're looking at was designed by a member, here, Anthony, who sadly, doesn't post here any more, after a row with me about god.

 

Lol please dont tell me it was the Ark you were arguing about?

Perhaps he still watches the forum and may drop me a pm if hes still around?

I promise no talk of God ect.

[mykaskin]

Boats made from marine ply were a common site on the canal many years ago.

 

and in some places still are:

 

 

bottom left boat was built more than 30 years ago out of marine ply. He's been all over the canal system with it, sleeping a family of four.

 

However, it is hard work keeping on top of it, and for my money would go for a fibreglass cruiser like those dawncrafts (or what ever the other one is), which can be picked up for peanuts, and then spend your time doing a nice fit out.

 

Mike

Edited July 26, 2010 by mykaskin

[Newold]

Sorry I thought you were on about a planked, rather than ply, boat.

 

Yes I would use the West System, or similar,on this design.

 

Iirc the boat you're looking at was designed by a member, here, Anthony, who sadly, doesn't post here any more, after a row with me about god.

 

 

 

Here's the link to his topic (about the boat, not imaginary friends).

Sorry Carl the link you posted does not work but thanks anyway.

[carlt]

Sorry Carl the link you posted does not work but thanks anyway.

See my edited post

[Newold]

and in some places still are:

 

 

bottom left boat was built more than 30 years ago out of marine ply. He's been all over the canal system with it, sleeping a family of four.

 

However, it is hard work keeping on top of it, and for my money would go for a fibreglass cruiser like those dawncrafts (or what ever the other one is), which can be picked up for peanuts, and then spend your time doing a nice fit out.

 

Mike

Thanks for that Mike.

Yes you may be right about the fiberglass boats bout I dont enjoy looking at them much especially in white.

I saw one somewhere that had a black bottom with wooden windows becasue the windows on them to replace is so expensive but it didnt look bad at all.

I suppose I could pick up a dawncraft cheap saving money on timber and buy a half decent trailer.

Hmm food for thought.

Thanks.

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

I totally agree Richard but those winds are not hitting a sail causing such pressure a sailing boat takes on.

I am talking about a wooden boat that is made from a minimum of 2 b 2 box section structure design to take on diagonal pressure.

This will be far stronger than a dawncraft 24 for example in windy conditions.

 

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of forces that could tear your boat apart. I was just observing that a 23' boat weighing a little over a ton and having an 8" draft will be quite a handful when it's windy.

 

Our twenty ton boat is bad enough

 

Richard

[Newold]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of forces that could tear your boat apart. I was just observing that a 23' boat weighing a little over a ton and having an 8" draft will be quite a handful when it's windy.

 

Our twenty ton boat is bad enough

 

Richard

Oh right Richard I see thanks.

Just read that link Carl about Anthonys boat and I must say his estimation of 2k is a bit much I think unless ive missed something.

I dont understand your comment about imaginary friends though but not to worry.

 

Thanks.

[larkshall]

My last sea going boat was wood, mahogany on oak frames, carvel build with long keel. I loved her to bits. Now wooden canal boats.

 

Others have said it here don't sheath in epoxy. Wood which is a living breathing thing needs expansion and contraction room. Put it n a plastic straightjacket sets up all kinds of strains.

 

I had a look at the plan, in as much as it tells you a lot..not.

 

I'm assuming marine ply?, what about the frames?, how are you going to get well seasoned timbers?, what fastenings, what adhesives?.

 

This boat is gona be very light, 8" draft, no centreplate to stop crabbing..

 

Personally I'd also worry about the all metal and heavy boats you will come into contact with. Not from anyone on this forum, but under taught renters..You hit them, you bounce off, they hit you?, well i dread to think.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love wood and would until latter years chosen this for any long distance boat. (You will find able shiprights anywhere from Bodrum to Sri Lanka who can repair any art of a wooden boat). Try repairing plastic in the 3rd world, even worse was ferro, and tin used to be very difficult. Not so much now. (I've seen a steel hull repaired with a patch rivetted on (no power to run a welder)

 

Think long and hard.

 

Purely as an aside, how about re-making a claasic wooden barge....But you really are taking about being a time served shipwright.

 

Purely as an aside I saw this one advertised.......http://www.easternyachts.com/rightroyal/index.htm

[Newold]

My last sea going boat was wood, mahogany on oak frames, carvel build with long keel. I loved her to bits. Now wooden canal boats.

 

Others have said it here don't sheath in epoxy. Wood which is a living breathing thing needs expansion and contraction room. Put it n a plastic straightjacket sets up all kinds of strains.

 

I had a look at the plan, in as much as it tells you a lot..not.

 

I'm assuming marine ply?, what about the frames?, how are you going to get well seasoned timbers?, what fastenings, what adhesives?.

 

This boat is gona be very light, 8" draft, no centreplate to stop crabbing..

 

Personally I'd also worry about the all metal and heavy boats you will come into contact with. Not from anyone on this forum, but under taught renters..You hit them, you bounce off, they hit you?, well i dread to think.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love wood and would until latter years chosen this for any long distance boat. (You will find able shiprights anywhere from Bodrum to Sri Lanka who can repair any art of a wooden boat). Try repairing plastic in the 3rd world, even worse was ferro, and tin used to be very difficult. Not so much now. (I've seen a steel hull repaired with a patch rivetted on (no power to run a welder)

 

Think long and hard.

 

Purely as an aside, how about re-making a claasic wooden barge....But you really are taking about being a time served shipwright.

 

Purely as an aside I saw this one advertised.......http://www.easternyachts.com/rightroyal/index.htm

 

Hi Larkshall I have been having a deep think about this idea.

I have also been thinking the epoxy could be a right pain and will get scraped off anyway.

What would be a good way to preserve the timber under the waterline?

Bitumen?

 

I appriciate your comments about the other boats but would this not also apply to the many plastic boats on the waterways too?

 

What is ''crabbing'' ?

 

I am thinking using 3b2 framing from treated pine and screw and glue with bolts through the frames.This will be a lot heavier than a ply frame and stonger.

All fixings to be stainless steel.

I have been looking at these free plans as a guide with a view to giving the bow a more pointed shape rather than square http://svensons.com/boat/?p=MechanixIllust...BudgetHouseBoat.

 

Thank you.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Newold

[Teadaemon]

I'm with Carlt, if you're building the boat from marine plywood (which has excellent dimensional stability compared to natural timber, especially if it's been glued together with epoxy to form a monocoque structure), then sheathing the hull with one or two layers of glass cloth and epoxy resin is an excellent idea (under no circumstances use polyester or vinylester resin instead of epoxy - they don't bond particularly well, are relatively porous to water, and are the source of most of the horror stories regarding sheathing wooden boats).

 

As far as protecting the hull from bumps and scrapes, I'd suggest using the same method as Dawncraft - multiple rubbing strakes made from Oak or Iroko, preferably with Stainless Steel bin irons screwed to them.

 

IIRC, the Selway-Fisher design is for ply on frame construction, which I would respectfully suggest is an obsolete technique with little to recommend it over more modern methods such as stitch and glue. I would also suggest that a flat-bottomed design with straight sides doesn't make very good use of the properties of plywood, a design with more curves in it would be much, much stronger (and have a deeper draft, which would help with directional stability.

[Newold]

I'm with Carlt, if you're building the boat from marine plywood (which has excellent dimensional stability compared to natural timber, especially if it's been glued together with epoxy to form a monocoque structure), then sheathing the hull with one or two layers of glass cloth and epoxy resin is an excellent idea (under no circumstances use polyester or vinylester resin instead of epoxy - they don't bond particularly well, are relatively porous to water, and are the source of most of the horror stories regarding sheathing wooden boats).

 

As far as protecting the hull from bumps and scrapes, I'd suggest using the same method as Dawncraft - multiple rubbing strakes made from Oak or Iroko, preferably with Stainless Steel bin irons screwed to them.

 

IIRC, the Selway-Fisher design is for ply on frame construction, which I would respectfully suggest is an obsolete technique with little to recommend it over more modern methods such as stitch and glue. I would also suggest that a flat-bottomed design with straight sides doesn't make very good use of the properties of plywood, a design with more curves in it would be much, much stronger (and have a deeper draft, which would help with directional stability.

Thanks for the reply.

The consearn for me using stich and tape is the thickness of the ply has to be 9mm at the most to bend it.

Ive built a 6m sailing dingy and that was difficult enough.

I would have thought a framed boat to be a lot stronger but IM no expert.

I also thought that a deep draft on the canal would cause problems too due to the shallow water.

Ive been searching around for a decent Dawncraft but people are asking over 6 grand for rubbish.

Lots of head scratching going on here as I just dont know what to do.

I want something of around 40 foot and under 10 k thats decent.

Anything steel requires major work and anything fiberglass just inst big enough.

Thanks.

[Teadaemon]

Thanks for the reply.

The consearn for me using stich and tape is the thickness of the ply has to be 9mm at the most to bend it.

Ive built a 6m sailing dingy and that was difficult enough.

I would have thought a framed boat to be a lot stronger but IM no expert.

I also thought that a deep draft on the canal would cause problems too due to the shallow water.

Ive been searching around for a decent Dawncraft but people are asking over 6 grand for rubbish.

Lots of head scratching going on here as I just dont know what to do.

I want something of around 40 foot and under 10 k thats decent.

Anything steel requires major work and anything fiberglass just inst big enough.

Thanks.

 

I didn't realise that you were after such a large boat (I know the Selway-Fisher plans are capable of modification, but as drawn they are for a 23 foot boat). Is it for use on narrow canals, or would a wider beam be something you'd consider?

 

There are ways and means of getting thick ply to bend, and if they don't work you have the option of laminating any particularly tight curves from multiple layers of plywood.

 

'Traditional' ply on frame is not as strong as stitch and glue because even glued and screwed, you still end up with a boat made from lots of bits of wood with joints in between. Using a method like stitch and glue, or glued clinker (lapstrake), you produce a monocoque structure that's stronger than the framed construction and lighter too (you could build a boat using a hybrid method, with the frame and all of the skin held together with thickened epoxy and glass. It would be very, very strong, but far heavier, more complicated, and more expensive than it needs to be).

 

I do suspect that your requirement for a 40 foot boat for a total cost of £10k including fitout is not very realistic, especially so if you want to build the hull out of wood (decent marine plywood is expensive stuff, epoxy equally so). I've just checked the Selway-Fisher website and found that they have plans for a 36 foot ply on frame narrowboat, and list the plywood required (to build the hull only, no superstructure), which I've cross-referenced with prices from Robbins Timber (Robbins Elite marine ply, so not even their top quality stuff):

 

32 x 6mm sheets @ £51.61 = £1,651.52

3 x 12mm sheets @ £85.07 = £255.21

4 x 18mm sheets @ £123.19 = £492.76

20 x 24mm sheets @ £168.48 = £3,369.60

 

That's a total of £5,769.09 (plus VAT, incidentally) before you've bought any framing, fastenings, materials for the superstructure, an engine, stern gear, or anything to fit out the inside.

 

On your budget, I'd suggest that your best option for buying a 40 foot narrowboat is to find a second hand steel one that got a decent hull, a working engine, and as good a fitout as you can find.

[Newold]

<!--quoteo(post=574907:date=Aug 22 2010, 01:53 PM:name=Newold)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Newold @ Aug 22 2010, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=574907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the reply.

The consearn for me using stich and tape is the thickness of the ply has to be 9mm at the most to bend it.

Ive built a 6m sailing dingy and that was difficult enough.

I would have thought a framed boat to be a lot stronger but IM no expert.

I also thought that a deep draft on the canal would cause problems too due to the shallow water.

Ive been searching around for a decent Dawncraft but people are asking over 6 grand for rubbish.

Lots of head scratching going on here as I just dont know what to do.

I want something of around 40 foot and under 10 k thats decent.

Anything steel requires major work and anything fiberglass just inst big enough.

Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

I didn't realise that you were after such a large boat (I know the Selway-Fisher plans are capable of modification, but as drawn they are for a 23 foot boat). Is it for use on narrow canals, or would a wider beam be something you'd consider?

 

There are ways and means of getting thick ply to bend, and if they don't work you have the option of laminating any particularly tight curves from multiple layers of plywood.

 

'Traditional' ply on frame is not as strong as stitch and glue because even glued and screwed, you still end up with a boat made from lots of bits of wood with joints in between. Using a method like stitch and glue, or glued clinker (lapstrake), you produce a monocoque structure that's stronger than the framed construction and lighter too (you could build a boat using a hybrid method, with the frame and all of the skin held together with thickened epoxy and glass. It would be very, very strong, but far heavier, more complicated, and more expensive than it needs to be).

 

I do suspect that your requirement for a 40 foot boat for a total cost of £10k including fitout is not very realistic, especially so if you want to build the hull out of wood (decent marine plywood is expensive stuff, epoxy equally so). I've just checked the Selway-Fisher website and found that they have plans for a 36 foot ply on frame narrowboat, and list the plywood required (to build the hull only, no superstructure), which I've cross-referenced with prices from Robbins Timber (Robbins Elite marine ply, so not even their top quality stuff):

 

32 x 6mm sheets @ £51.61 = £1,651.52

3 x 12mm sheets @ £85.07 = £255.21

4 x 18mm sheets @ £123.19 = £492.76

20 x 24mm sheets @ £168.48 = £3,369.60

 

That's a total of £5,769.09 (plus VAT, incidentally) before you've bought any framing, fastenings, materials for the superstructure, an engine, stern gear, or anything to fit out the inside.

 

On your budget, I'd suggest that your best option for buying a 40 foot narrowboat is to find a second hand steel one that got a decent hull, a working engine, and as good a fitout as you can find.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Teadaemon its much appriciated.

I am luck in that I have a friend who gets marine ply cheap.

I had a price for 60 sheets of 9mm at £1125 I was going to double skin with that.

But then as you said there is the cabin,epoxy,unit to rent,screws ect.

I like the idea of a 40 foot steel boat but there are not any that are not seriously in a mess!

I suppose I will have to wait longer and raise more money.

Its getting me down though not being able to get on the water.