Advise needed about Welds

[Newold]

Hello everyone.

I am currently about to buy a second hand boat.

It is 36 years old stored in a dry barn and has never been in the water.

The old gentleman now in his seventies fitted it out but never got to finishing the project so there it has sat for years.

 

I do not know much about steel and welds and wondered if there would be a possibility of the shell leaking when I put it in the water.

What kind of plan should I contruct?

 

Thanks.

[Albion]

Hello everyone.

I am currently about to buy a second hand boat.

It is 36 years old stored in a dry barn and has never been in the water.

The old gentleman now in his seventies fitted it out but never got to finishing the project so there it has sat for years.

 

I do not know much about steel and welds and wondered if there would be a possibility of the shell leaking when I put it in the water.

What kind of plan should I contruct?

 

Thanks.

 

Do you have any idea who made the shell; was it home made or from a reputable builder at the time? That knowledge could have a significant impact on your enquiry.

Roger

[Newold]

Do you have any idea who made the shell; was it home made or from a reputable builder at the time? That knowledge could have a significant impact on your enquiry.

Roger

Hi Roger Springer made the hull.

[Albion]

Hi Roger Springer made the hull.

 

Springers were OK. They were only ever at the budget end of the market (I looked at buying one myself in the late 80's) and the welding will be fairly argicultural but sound IMO. They will be built from thinnish steel though, not that that should be a problem with a dry stored shell.

Roger

[Newold]

Springers were OK. They were only ever at the budget end of the market (I looked at buying one myself in the late 80's) and the welding will be fairly argicultural but sound IMO. They will be built from thinnish steel though, not that that should be a problem with a dry stored shell.

Roger

Thanks for that Roger.

Yes it looks like it needs a good rub down and paint.

I know what you mean about the welding looking very argicultral but I like the v shape hull.

[Naughty Cal]

Get it surveyed that should answer some of your questions.

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks for that Roger.

Yes it looks like it needs a good rub down and paint.

I know what you mean about the welding looking very argicultral but I like the v shape hull.

 

I still think it would be wise for you to have the boat thoroughly surveyed before you buy . .

 

I know not what regulations may possibly have changed, but I feel that any fit-out of that age really really should be checked . . . .

[Newold]

Get it surveyed that should answer some of your questions.

I appriciate the suggetion but really in this case I would be looking for someone who has welding experience and or comes from and engineering background.

I have met surveyors who have basically done nothing more than a distance learning inland waterways diploma.

With no real background experience.

Naturally I am not saying this is always the case but I dont not wish to sift through and unregulated industry for an unguaranteed opinion.

As you may have guessed I have had some bad experiences dealing with so called surveyors.

Thanks.

 

I still think it would be wise for you to have the boat thoroughly surveyed before you buy . .

 

I know not what regulations may possibly have changed, but I feel that any fit-out of that age really really should be checked . . . .

I have enough knowledge to know what needs changing in line with current boat safety standards as I have fitted out a couple of boats myself.

There is no electric or gas on the boat or even vents so naturally I need to sort all that.

Its just the steelwork IM not up on really.

[granddad]

The initial test for a weld is the float test. Even the strongest boat builders have a heart stopping moment when it's first in the water. Maybe offer to pay for to put it in the water - and deduct it from the price you'll eventully pay. If it leaks you lose less than a £1000. There are all sorts of welders/builders out there. Some don't even include frames as it gives hard spots on the outside finish.

ken

[casper ghost]

Is the boat within crane distance of the water, if not rent for a lorry and a crane each end can be quite expensive.

[Evo]

There are hundreds of Springer boats about. Alot have seen some serious abuse and look completely knackered - but still float.

Has it ever had any paint on...??? Does it look like its lived at the bottom of the sea for years...?? Or is it just surface rust thats fairly light...???? My guess is that its alot better than most and a good shot blast and epoxy would see it looking like brand new - assuming it has been 'dry stored'.

 

Why do you suspect the welds, you sound like you have some sort of inkling theres something wrong.

[Mick_B]

Wow.. a brand new Springer that should in theory be still around in 20 odd years..

[Newold]

There are hundreds of Springer boats about. Alot have seen some serious abuse and look completely knackered - but still float.

Has it ever had any paint on...??? Does it look like its lived at the bottom of the sea for years...?? Or is it just surface rust thats fairly light...???? My guess is that its alot better than most and a good shot blast and epoxy would see it looking like brand new - assuming it has been 'dry stored'.

 

Why do you suspect the welds, you sound like you have some sort of inkling theres something wrong.

 

Hi Evo, no I dont suspect anything really just kind of ticking the boxes of things that may go wrong off in my mind.

The boat has no paint on it and just surface rust so as someone else has said its basically a brand new Springer shell.

 

When you say epoxy how do you suggest this being used and would blacking be used on a boat that has been epoxied?

 

Thanks.

 

Is the boat within crane distance of the water, if not rent for a lorry and a crane each end can be quite expensive.

The crane and lorry will be £350 approx as the lorry has a crane on it that will do the job.

Would sticking a hose pipe in it and filling it up to the last welds on the waterline be a feasable test?

Then bildge pump it back out with a good mop and bucket for the rest or would that be overkill?

[casper ghost]

Would sticking a hose pipe in it and filling it up to the last welds on the waterline be a feasable test?

Then bildge pump it back out with a good mop and bucket for the rest or would that be overkill?

 

No, that's just crazy... We test welds by brushing parrafin into the welds one side and seeing if any seeps through to the other side, but you can't do that if it's lined out.

 

If you're worried about it leaking when first launched , then launch it at a yard where they have their own crane and can lift it out and repair should it need it. Don't see why it should leak though.

Edited May 24, 2010 by casper ghost

[Albion]

Thanks for that Roger.

Yes it looks like it needs a good rub down and paint.

I know what you mean about the welding looking very argicultral but I like the v shape hull.

 

The folded Vee-shaped base plate allowed Springers to use a thinner steel and still achieve the stiffness required. From memory, although I may be wrong, Springers would have been using a 5mm (or equivalent imperial size) base plate at that time. Personally, I doubt there will be anything wrong with it and as it is partially fitted out by the old gent then I am assuming that it is well past the lining out stage so some of the weld testing methods suggested won't be suitable. There are loads of old Springers about still giving good service so you will either have to go with your gut feel or employ a surveyor and do the full monty. In my opinion though a surveyor is unlikely to be any more capable of spotting a porous weld than you are by the sound of it, but that is only my opinion. It comes down to price v risk really.

Roger

[bag 'o' bones]

If the boat is unpainted then any suspect welding will have shown up by now. Look for changes in colour between the weld and the steel sometimes they show up as a change in colour if the weld has cracked.

 

Other then get yourself some crack detector spray.

[Bones]

The folded Vee-shaped base plate allowed Springers to use a thinner steel and still achieve the stiffness required. From memory, although I may be wrong, Springers would have been using a 5mm (or equivalent imperial size) base plate at that time. Personally, I doubt there will be anything wrong with it and as it is partially fitted out by the old gent then I am assuming that it is well past the lining out stage so some of the weld testing methods suggested won't be suitable. There are loads of old Springers about still giving good service so you will either have to go with your gut feel or employ a surveyor and do the full monty. In my opinion though a surveyor is unlikely to be any more capable of spotting a porous weld than you are by the sound of it, but that is only my opinion. It comes down to price v risk really.

Roger

 

 

unless it was purchased because springer said it was a duff, and the guy got it cheap and intended to weld it up and repair it so that it was ok, and never did or forgot about it or decided it wasn't necessary... or maybe I need a lie down.

[Albion]

unless it was purchased because springer said it was a duff, and the guy got it cheap and intended to weld it up and repair it so that it was ok, and never did or forgot about it or decided it wasn't necessary... or maybe I need a lie down.

 

 

Lol, maybe, it has been a bit warm

 

In those days Springer used to sell shells as well as finished boats so I don't really see why this shell should be defective any more than any other. If Springer knew it was defective then another run of weld would have solved that and the shell could be sold at full price.

 

I suggest a cool, dark and undisturbed place place for your lie down Bones. Recovery should be fairly swift.

Roger

[Evo]

When you say epoxy how do you suggest this being used and would blacking be used on a boat that has been epoxied?

 

 

Epoxy paints are 2 part paints...thats all. The paint and an activator. Its supposed to be stronger bonding more corrosion resistant. It was the so called best method of protecting a steel hull when we did ours. Things may have changed now though...I would do a bit of my own research into the various processes if it were me.

The process involves a guy turning up one sunny day with a great big shot blaster and stripping to bare metal. He then sprays on an expoy primer.....you can paint over that with what you like, but again, check it all out properly.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Evo

[alan_fincher]

It's a lovely story, but somehow it almost beggars belief to me that there is a 36 year old Springer anywhere that has never been floated.

 

If it's really true, and it's been well done, it must be worth a bit extra on rarity grounds alone!

 

What (if any) engine does it have ? (It hasn't got a "mint" Ducati, has it ?!?)

[Grace and Favour]

It's a lovely story, but somehow it almost beggars belief to me that there is a 36 year old Springer anywhere that has never been floated.

 

If it's really true, and it's been well done, it must be worth a bit extra on rarity grounds alone!

 

What (if any) engine does it have ? (It hasn't got a "mint" Ducati, has it ?!?)

Is a 'mint' Ducati one with an hole in it?

[Newold]

It's a lovely story, but somehow it almost beggars belief to me that there is a 36 year old Springer anywhere that has never been floated.

 

If it's really true, and it's been well done, it must be worth a bit extra on rarity grounds alone!

 

What (if any) engine does it have ? (It hasn't got a "mint" Ducati, has it ?!?)

Hi, you can tell just by looking at it it has never seen water.

It even has extra ribs welded inside to stiffen it more as apparently springers flexed a lot.

He actually bought the hull and had the cabin welded on by another person when funds allowed.

He said thats how it was done then.

It has an old bmc never been turned for 30 odd years either with a new prm box with papers although I have a new outboard if needs must.

[alan_fincher]

He actually bought the hull and had the cabin welded on by another person when funds allowed.

He said thats how it was done then.

If it's a 1974 Springer, then that doesn't sound right to me.

 

Although apparently a few very early ones were "hull only", I believe ones where Springer did not build the whole shell in steel are very rare, particularly if it's not a particularly early one.

 

Mind you there seems be much folk-lore about Springers, so perhaps I've not got my facts right.

 

But what you are describing deviates from any I have ever heard of - it's certainly not how it was usually done in 1974, that's a certainty.

[Hairy-Neil]

It's a lovely story, but somehow it almost beggars belief to me that there is a 36 year old Springer anywhere that has never been floated.

 

I'm sure it's not that rare. My ex's brother-in-law has a yacht hull in his shed that he was going to fit out and use. He bought it as an unfinished 'self build' project from the original owner who'd been 'working' on it for years. It's been in its current location for 29 years that I know of. Shortly after I first met the guy he bought a 5 year old Merc van and started converting it to a camper van as he wasn't making quick enough progress with the boat. It remained incomplete on his drive till about 5 years ago when the scrap man finally took it away.... I believe he saved the engine out of it for another project.....

[sharky]

if your concerned about the welds, buy some cans of crack detector and check them yourself.

if you have access to the inside of the shell you spray dye penetrant on one side (usually red) and then spray the developer (white) on the other side of the weld. any flaws will show a red patch in the developer.

if you only have access to the exterior of the shell you spray dye penetrant on the weld and leave for a few minutes to soak into any cracks and then remove the dye with penetrant remover. then you spray on the developer and wait for the dye to bleed back out of any cracks or flaws.

 

you need to make sure you clean of all of the penetrant before painting because it will just keep bleeding through each paint coat.

 

Sharky