Canal Boat CB radio - short update

[GRPCruiserman]

I use a G-Whip Flexi Mobile Whip with a base extension and top band coil:

 

and whilst on the move:

 

This is the "Bug Catcher" loading coil and mount from an MFJ_1622 Apartment Antenna and a Moonraker Tornado Stinger CB antenna also available from Maplin. This covers 40 to 12 meters and 10 with an ATU.

 

This is the side-on view:

 

I hope this is useful to someone.

 

It's given me some ideas anyway.

 

Interesting that you use the CB aerial instead of the telescopic bit; presumabley this helps a lot??

[jelunga]

I would personally like a nice little CW net for canal boats. However, I do not know of any PMR or CB set that offers a CW or MCW mode!!

.-.-.

 

I guess most people on the canals don't bother with two-way radios because there's not much point. And radio buffs will play with as many different sorts of radio as possible, because that's precisely the point (Guilty).

 

For those of us of a radio bent, the idea of thousands of boaty types nattering away to each other deep into the evening on the ondes cortes is very appealing. But with the innernet and the mobile phone, there's really no need - places like these forums and 3G do the job far better.

 

Come the acopalypse/solar storm/revolution/caliphate and the destruction of all the mobile phone and digital networks, yer actual analogue two-way radio will be the place to be. Until then, it's probably best left in the hands of those who love it.

[NB Willawaw]

Morse ?? nah, will never catch on !!

 

I hear 500KHz is going spare

 

I would personally like a nice little CW net for canal boats. However, I do not know of any PMR or CB set that offers a CW or MCW mode!!

.-.-.

Edited March 21, 2010 by NB Willawaw

[Keeping Up]

I would personally like a nice little CW net for canal boats. However, I do not know of any PMR or CB set that offers a CW or MCW mode!!

.-.-.

You could always whistle into the microphone .... ..

 

...-.-

[Nickhlx]

You could always whistle into the microphone .... ..

 

...-.-

 

 

I learnt morse on 145.250 FM with a Datong on a local net - not true morse, granted, but served the purpose... Perhaps 2M SSB for a bit more range ? At least you will have the band to yourself :-((

 

 

 

Nick

[jelunga]

Morse ?? nah, will never catch on !!

 

I hear 500KHz is going spare

 

Now that is a nice long range frequency. But I think a 1/4 wave dipole will be a bit too long for my boat!!!

[RupertG]

I would personally like a nice little CW net for canal boats. However, I do not know of any PMR or CB set that offers a CW or MCW mode!!

.-.-.

 

A long time ago in a land far, far away, a friend had a SuperStar 2000 multimode CB with CW. We were never quite sure why, but it did work. And as it was one of those nice designs with a PLL chip that did what it was told, it was even possible to operate it legally at the CW end of 10 metres.

 

However, I feel strongly that CW on canal boats should be via coherers and spark-gap transmitters. Audions, at a stretch.

 

R

[Keeping Up]

However, I feel strongly that CW on canal boats should be via coherers and spark-gap transmitters. Audions, at a stretch.

Or Aldis lamp of course.

[Nickhlx]

Luddites ... both of you !!

 

 

 

Nick

[jelunga]

Or Aldis lamp of course.

 

 

Another great idea!! That way, in a tunnel, you could have a quick conversation with an oncoming boat. Must try to get one on mine!!

[Nickhlx]

Another great idea!! That way, in a tunnel, you could have a quick conversation with an oncoming boat. Must try to get one on mine!!

 

Just flash the bow light on and off ??

 

Nick

[jelunga]

Another great idea!! That way, in a tunnel, you could have a quick conversation with an oncoming boat. Must try to get one on mine!!

 

One likE this maybe Signal Lamp

Edited March 21, 2010 by jelunga

[RobinR]

It's given me some ideas anyway.

 

Interesting that you use the CB aerial instead of the telescopic bit; presumabley this helps a lot??

 

The reason is durability and flexability - it will survive should it get entangeled with overhanging vegitation and bend easily for any low bridges etc.

[RupertG]

Luddites ... both of you !!

 

 

 

Nick

 

Nonsense. Spark gap was the original spread spectrum...

[Nickhlx]

Nonsense. Spark gap was the original spread spectrum...

 

 

So - a slow move to petrol engines and an aerial on each plug cap then, just switching the engine off and on ? :lol:

 

 

Nick

[GRPCruiserman]

I learnt morse on 145.250 FM with a Datong on a local net - not true morse, granted, but served the purpose... Perhaps 2M SSB for a bit more range ? At least you will have the band to yourself :-((

 

 

 

Nick

 

I dont know, 2m SSB is used a fair bit round here, especially for SOTA people in The Lake District and North Wales, both of which are in easy range from my house. 2m FM is buzzing in the North West, it's pretty rare not to be able to find anyone to talk to.

[Nickhlx]

I dont know, 2m SSB is used a fair bit round here, especially for SOTA people in The Lake District and North Wales, both of which are in easy range from my house. 2m FM is buzzing in the North West, it's pretty rare not to be able to find anyone to talk to.

 

 

OK.... 2M is little used round here these days, apart from repeaters, morning and evening, to and from work, but I am sure the activity will increase come Spring and Summer

 

Nick

[Mitch - Soma]

I would reckon a PMR446 would go a similar distance to a 27Mhz handheld with its standard aerial, but even those are massive in comparison and comparatively unwieldy - not really "shirt-top-pocketable"... either way each should do a few hundred yards which will be the range the majority would be used at ....

 

Nick

 

(Monitoring Ch8,0)

 

 

 

 

Mitch,

 

Promise you will do unbiased tests ? You do seem to be somewhat biased towards the 27 Mhz kit, but the aerials are so inefficient at that frequency when coiled up into a helical of manageable length.... compare the 446 sets - wavelength is 67 cms, so 1/4 wave is 16.8 and the aerials from the output device to tip of aerial are around 12 cms - a decent percentage of a 1/4 wave....

( why does this feel like a VHS/Betamax comparison ? :lol: )

 

Nick

 

Nick,

 

Have played with the Maycom - yea, a bit big when hooking up the "charge adaptor" and batt. pack. Range was well above expectation, hand-held to a boat install with a springer mag-mount was about 60% of that achieved from two installs, both with springers. (Springer is a metre long whip with "air" coil base load). Maycom was on re-chargeables, so power output was down, but the comm's were bi-directional, ( Maycom weak to the boat, vice-versa was true), so I put it down to the aerial. Size-wise no comparison to PMR 446 - a real brick if you want to compare, but not bad for a 27 Mhz unit. Nice bit is that one can strip off the batt. pack and aerial etc, plug it into 12v and a proper aerial, and you have a full-blown 4 watt radio with equivalent range, which is not (legally) do-able on 446.

 

Regarding selective calling, am having quite a bit of trouble with R.F. bailing into the DTMF mic's when hooking the radio up to a rubbish mag-mount. Works fine on a proper fixed mount install, but a mag-mount just corrupts the tones and hangs the PTT on - all sorts of mayhem. Am struggling to suppress the mic's, might even have to go for more expensive, better quality - but we shall see....

 

So far, the decoders are working a treat, right down to .3 uv, a pretty noisy signal on C.B.! We are doing a load more work on the decoder software and should have a really neat unit in a couple of weeks time, different alerts for individual and group calls, PTT reset of call alerts and led etc, etc. Six demo units are out and about around London currently, but will hold back on doing any more until the new software comes and have sorted out the mic problems.

 

Regards,

 

Mitch.

[Mitch - Soma]

Yes Nick, I am biased towards 27 Mhz - as far as I know, the Citizens Band Radio Service is the only group of 40 frequencies, 80 in the U.K.), which one can legally use for any purpose, on land or water, vitually un-restricted, licence free, no certificate required, where you are allowed 4 watts power, any equipment (hand-held, mobile, base), external aerial equipment from mobile to huge base aerials, etc, etc. PMR 446 is restricted to 300 Mw, no external aerial, 8 Ch.s only - (forget the DCS/CTCSS they are NOT Ch's, only masks). The authorities have been so lax regarding PMR 446 that now - in London anyway - it's almost un-usable. So many two-way radio dealers seem quite happy to provide 25 watt base-stations and mobiles programmed to the PMR 446 frequencies that the congestion is un-believable! Just drive round London with a mobile and aerial and you will soon see what I mean.

 

I firmly believe that the C.B. service allows far more options than any other license free band, hence my bias. Done properly, 4 watts at 27 Mhz can produce very satifactory results - I know, I ran a car-phone service on it In South Africa before mobile phone!!! Genuine!!!

 

Mitch.

[Nickhlx]

Hi Mitch,

 

Thanks for the reply - I put some comments in red against the findings below....

 

 

Nick,

 

Have played with the Maycom - yea, a bit big when hooking up the "charge adaptor" and batt. pack. Range was well above expectation, hand-held to a boat install with a springer mag-mount was about 60% of that achieved from two installs, both with springers. (Springer is a metre long whip with "air" coil base load). Maycom was on re-chargeables, so power output was down, but the comm's were bi-directional, ( Maycom weak to the boat, vice-versa was true), so I put it down to the aerial. Size-wise no comparison to PMR 446 - a real brick if you want to compare, but not bad for a 27 Mhz unit. Nice bit is that one can strip off the batt. pack and aerial etc, plug it into 12v and a proper aerial, and you have a full-blown 4 watt radio with equivalent range, which is not (legally) do-able on 446. Yes - point taken but only any use for the guy on the boat... - .... the aerial size is undesirable on a boat and even a rubber duck is unwieldy for the portable, who really wants to stick the set in his shirt top pocket "

 

Regarding selective calling, am having quite a bit of trouble with R.F. bailing into the DTMF mic's when hooking the radio up to a rubbish mag-mount. Works fine on a proper fixed mount install, but a mag-mount just corrupts the tones and hangs the PTT on - all sorts of mayhem. Am struggling to suppress the mic's, might even have to go for more expensive, better quality - but we shall see.... Sounds like RF is getting into somewhere that doesn't like it - could be difficult to sort out and obviously completely out of the question for the average user - all must work out of the box

 

So far, the decoders are working a treat, right down to .3 uv, a pretty noisy signal on C.B.! ( That's a a good signal on the PMR446 sets ! ) We are doing a load more work on the decoder software and should have a really neat unit in a couple of weeks time, different alerts for individual and group calls, PTT reset of call alerts and led etc, etc. Six demo units are out and about around London currently, but will hold back on doing any more until the new software comes and have sorted out the mic problems.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Mitch.

 

It sounds a good system to me and if the boaters were Radio Hams I am sure it would be a hit with them - however I really think it's a non-starter going 27 MHz, for set size / weight and aerial size and the general "complexity" of the system with "Sel-Cal" etc. People want a cheap, small as possible ( "shirt top pocket" size is perfect) with an "adequate range - probably 400 yards is fine - I think few would use, let alone miss not having a longer range for organising evening banters, but with a good set ( e.g Intek MT 5050) and even the cheaper sets, you should be getting a range of "as far as you'd want to walk along the towpath at night" for most people

 

People who want to get better ranges will go the amateur way or the "illegal" way, but on 446, as quite honestly no-one is going to know / worry about 4 watts on 446 being an "unpoliced" ( as no fee paid) allocation and 4 watts on 446 will go miles - and even further if the aerial mod is done on the Intek MT 5050, although no-one could possibly recommend that I am purely speaking from a practical viewpoint - and I feel sure few will want to spend even as much as £60 that a good 446 set costs

 

I applaud and congratulate you on your efforts though....

 

 

What do others think, now a few days have passed and you have had time to reflect on things, and latest updates from our man at the front line ?

 

Nick

Edited March 22, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Mitch,

 

Thanks for the reply - I put some comments in red against the findings below....

 

 

 

 

It sounds a good system to me and if the boaters were Radio Hams I am sure it would be a hit with them - however I really think it's a non-starter going 27 MHz, for set size / weight and aerial size and the general "complexity" of the system with "Sel-Cal" etc. People want a cheap, small as possible ( "shirt top pocket" size is perfect) with an "adequate range - probably 400 yards is fine - I think few would use, let alone miss not having a longer range for organising evening banters, but with a good set ( e.g Intek MT 5050) and even the cheaper sets, you should be getting a range of "as far as you'd want to walk along the towpath at night" for most people

 

People who want to get better ranges will go the amateur way or the "illegal" way, but on 446, as quite honestly no-one is going to know / worry about 4 watts on 446 being an "unpoliced" ( as no fee paid) allocation and 4 watts on 446 will go miles - and even further if the aerial mod is done on the Intek MT 5050, although no-one could possibly recommend that I am purely speaking from a practical viewpoint - and I feel sure few will want to spend even as much as £60 that a good 446 set costs

 

I applaud and congratulate you on your efforts though....

 

 

What do others think, now a few days have passed and you have had time to reflect on things, and latest updates from our man at the front line ?

 

Nick

 

I think exactly what I said before and am in complete agreement with you Nick. CB is great for radio enthusiasts who want to tinker about and talk about how much range they got with this or that add on. Boat enthusiasts want to tinker with their boats and 446 does all that is required on the inland waterways at a price that everyone can afford, fits in your pocket and as you point out again, 'Works straight out of the box'.

 

Roger

Edited March 22, 2010 by Roger Gunkel

[Nickhlx]

I think exactly what I said before and am in complete agreement with you Nick. CB is great for radio enthusiasts who want to tinker about and talk about how much range they got with this or that add on. Boat enthusiasts want to tinker with their boats and 446 does all that is required on the inland waterways at a price that everyone can afford, fits in your pocket and as you point out again, 'Works straight out of the box'.

 

Roger

 

 

I had a bet with myself that you would pop up shortly after I posted the above ( and I won - suppose I would have, either way !! )

 

but reading "between the lines" about what peoples' thoughts are, it's obvious to me that, of the small number who will persevere, most will go for standard PMR446, some will go with "modified 446" with more power or (and?) a better aerial (and I reckon I could name 2 or 3 who will do that), and the rest will form a very small percentage and will be spread amongst the Marine band, 27MHz and the Amateurs.

 

As you may know I will have full Amateur kit on board (when on board) and will spend most of my small amount of radio time with that, but I will have on and persevere at CH8,0 as much of the time as possible, which will be all moving time, as we use it around locks / bridges etc anyway, and they are cheaper to drop in, at a tenner each, than any amateur set will be, and probably during the evenings in case anyone puts out a call who is in range....

 

Another thought / use has crossed my mind in that I do plan to do more night cruising, and am slowly modifying the boat to make it even quieter, although am still not decided about ( whether I can afford/justify) electric power, although am very enthused by it, especially for the silence, day or night.

It would be particularly useful for cruising at night when you can't see round "blind" bends, day and obviously at night and the lights might be mis-interpreted.

 

Perhaps it should be recommended to be used at night / even mandatory equipment (?) although I am sure the old timers will get upset and say they have got by without it for x zillion years, so why change...

 

Nick

[Roger Gunkel]

I had a bet with myself that you would pop up shortly after I posted the above ( and I won - suppose I would have, either way !! )

 

Am I that predictable?

 

I looked at all the pro and cons of CB and PMR and based on my own experience of CB from 20 years ago plus Mitch's review, nothing seems to have changed - except for the world and technology moving on with PMR

 

Now electric power, that's something that does interest me

 

Roger

[Nickhlx]

Am I that predictable?

 

I looked at all the pro and cons of CB and PMR and based on my own experience of CB from 20 years ago plus Mitch's review, nothing seems to have changed - except for the world and technology moving on with PMR

 

Now electric power, that's something that does interest me

 

Roger

 

 

No - but I did think you would have something to comment about that...

 

I am already in discussions with one of the ? 3 boats that were reviewed a few months back in one of the mags and plan to go up and see ( revel in) the quietness for myself - trouble is I know it will convince me, so a bit hesitant to even keep talking to him at the moment, till I know I can afford it...

 

Nick

[tidal]

I have found this very interesting and for what it is worth and just as a personal and subjective experience, I have been this month using both CB (handset and base station) and PMR handsets on a canal boat trundling gently round a small section of the L&LC

The very old but legal Midland base linked to a DVR aerial (now that is a sad thing to stick up on a boat) combined with an old Radioshack 40ch mobile (also legal) gave from 10 to 15miles range in open country and down to 3 miles or less in the cuttings or through the towns surrounded as we were by old industrial buildings

 

The PMRs performed significantly less effectively on range (but as others have said scored on convenience) giving a best range of 4 miles and a least of no more than a couple of hundred metres

 

It should be noted that the ranges above were obtained during late winter and in a period where reception was good across many of the radio bands locally (technical terms not used to keep it simple btw)

In Spring , Summer and Autumn with leaf cover on the canal sides I suspect from experience that the 27meg range would drop significantly. I have insufficient experience with PMR to state that the same would happen with them but suspect that it would be so.

 

It is about horses for courses people, if you want short range comms for boat to locking crew or shoping crew etc the convenience of the PMRs will be the deciding factor, especially with the rather dinky but functional hands free kit these came with.....I cant remember the breed but will find out when my colleague, whose boat it was returns from the continent next month

 

If you want more range...and there is more on 27 especially to set up nets or relays then the relatively cumbersome CB rigs are probably better.

I would by choice probably run both

 

As for the other bands each to their own but I still, as an experienced operator, would suggest that marine vhf is NOT a suitable or neccessary set up for the majority of canal users though many on tidal rivers could, rightly, say otherwise

 

Sorry.... a bit more than tuppence.