What type of water heater is this??

[Guest]

Spotted this

 

 

On Dlinot Boats web site and was curious to know what type of water heater it is - it looks like an instantaneous type which I thought was a 'no no' now on boats due to the CO risks - or are they flued differently on modern boats,

 

Cheers,

[bag 'o' bones]

Spotted this

 

 

On Dlinot Boats web site and was curious to know what type of water heater it is - it looks like an instantaneous type which I thought was a 'no no' now on boats due to the CO risks - or are they flued differently on modern boats,

 

Cheers,

 

If its on a new boat its probably a room sealed type which is ok.

 

The current legislation is very confusing leading many people to believe that conventional instantaneous heaters are a no no. If the heaters are retro fitted fit rather than bought as part of a new fully fitted boat then I don't think there is a problem.

 

It has to be said the current rules whilst undoubtedly have boaters safety in mind, they don't make any sense and appear to be ill thought out.

 

edited to say its nice to see a boat builder parting from the usual 'coffin box' all oak look and instead gone for something a little lighter!

Edited January 24, 2010 by bag 'o' bones

[Guest]

If its on a new boat its probably a room sealed type which is ok.

 

The current legislation is very confusing leading many people to believe that conventional instantaneous heaters are a no no. If the heaters are retro fitted fit rather than bought as part of a new fully fitted boat then I don't think there is a problem.

 

It has to be said the current rules whilst undoubtedly have boaters safety in mind, they don't make any sense and appear to be ill thought out.

 

edited to say its nice to see a boat builder parting from the usual 'coffin box' all oak look and instead gone for something a little lighter!

 

Cheers

 

and I agree on the boat finish too - some new boats do have a tendency to leave you thinking you've been buried alive!!

Edited January 24, 2010 by MJG

[bag 'o' bones]

Just had a look at the website and it appears they fit the Morco D61B/D61E which are both pilot light models!

 

Interesting.....

Edited January 24, 2010 by bag 'o' bones

[Jim]

Just had a look at the website and it appears they fit the Morco D61B/D61E which are both pilot light models!

 

Interesting.....

 

The advice I received when I had a Morco D61B fitted to replace a worn out Paloma was that it was OK because the boat was not my "permanent residence"

Jim

[Guest]

Just had a look at the website and it appears they fit the Morco D61B/D61E which are both pilot light models!

 

Interesting.....

 

But don't they need a pilot to ignite the main burner when the water/flow is turned on - or am I being dim?

 

 

Just had a look at the website and it appears they fit the Morco D61B/D61E which are both pilot light models!

 

Interesting.....

 

The one in the first pic does look like one of these:-

 

Water heater link

[alan_fincher]

It is undoubtedly a Morco of either the D61B or D61E variant.

 

Both are non room sealed, (not balanced flue), and differ only by how the permaently burning pilot light is lit in the first place.

 

Although they are fully acceptable from BSS perspective, I thought there were good reasons why they can't now be original fit to a new build boat.

 

I'm very surprised to see a new build that has one - I can't recall it from any other manufacturer.

 

EDITED TO SAY:

 

These things have a minimum flue length, and it is certainly unlikely to be met by just the bit of cut down internal flue shown in the picture posted.

 

This means it should have a fair bit more outside.

 

As it is exiting the cabin roof very close to the edge, I would have thought this is going to result in a poorly positioned flue outside.

 

It's hard to see how you can satisfactorily mount one on an outside wall, as they have tried, (and which is why it is so far from the wall at the base, and has those nasty triangular wooden infils at the side). Normally these things are positioned on an internal bulkhead, allowing them to be upright, and the flue to be somewhere more central on the roof, not right up near a grab rail.

 

It looks poor to my eye!

Edited January 24, 2010 by alan_fincher

[Felucca]

It is undoubtedly a Morco of either the D61B or D61E variant.

 

Both are non room sealed, (not balanced flue), and differ only by how the permaently burning pilot light is lit in the first place.

 

Although they are fully acceptable from BSS perspective, I thought there were good reasons why they can't now be original fit to a new build boat.

 

I'm very surprised to see a new build that has one - I can't recall it from any other manufacturer.

 

EDITED TO SAY:

 

These things have a minimum flue length, and it is certainly unlikely to be met by just the bit of cut down internal flue shown in the picture posted.

 

This means it should have a fair bit more outside.

 

As it is exiting the cabin roof very close to the edge, I would have thought this is going to result in a poorly positioned flue outside.

 

It's hard to see how you can satisfactorily mount one on an outside wall, as they have tried, (and which is why it is so far from the wall at the base, and has those nasty triangular wooden infils at the side). Normally these things are positioned on an internal bulkhead, allowing them to be upright, and the flue to be somewhere more central on the roof, not right up near a grab rail.

 

It looks poor to my eye!

 

 

OOps Im still learning how to use this forum! But anyway doesnt this subject smack of similarity to what we've been talking about on my Paloma question it would seem there is a lot of confusion with what is /or isnt acceptable even with boat builders! I understood that the flue length greatly hinders practical use of the vessel esp where bridges are concerned, so I'd love to know how they have got around that problem on that new boat pic!

[Speedwheel]

Definately a Morco D61 series.

[Guest]

So given my original suspicions where that the combustion process is 'open to the room' is this still considered dangerous or not,

 

 

- and are there any instantaneous water heaters that are sealed to the room (ie with a balanced flue) - we once had one at home (think it was made by Myson (sp) and it had a balanced flue that went through the wall it was affixed too...

 

Is there not a boat suitable equivalent??

[alan_fincher]

So given my original suspicions where that the combustion process is 'open to the room' is this still considered dangerous or not,

 

It seems to depend who you are!

 

For many years it was nigh on impossible to hire a boat where this was not the only source of hot water.

 

I don't recall any fatalities, although if you abuse them or wrongly install them, it is of course possible.

 

BSS people no longer place restrictions on fitting them.

 

- and are there any instantaneous water heaters that are sealed to the room (ie with a balanced flue) - we once had one at home (think it was made by Myson (sp) and it had a balanced flue that went through the wall it was affixed too...

 

Is there not a boat suitable equivalent??

There is a room sealed Morco - it has been discussed on here in several previous threads.

 

It appears to be very unsuitable for fitting to a cruising narrow-boat, as....

 

1) The flue length is supposed to be fixed, meaning if it is put "upwards" it will not clear low bridges.

(There is an option of a 90 degrees side flue, but I've not heard of one satisfactorily fitted to a narrow boat.

 

2) The heater requires permanent 240 volt power.

 

Clearly the BSS peops know that whist they suggest "room sealed"/"balanced flue", that the reality isn't sensible.

 

Most LPG boat ovens vent directly into the cabin. All LPG hobs do. Water heaters vent out of a big open hole through the roof - explain why that is more dangerous than a hob, a grill or an oven.

[bag 'o' bones]

(snipity snip)

 

Most LPG boat ovens vent directly into the cabin. All LPG hobs do. Water heaters vent out of a big open hole through the roof - explain why that is more dangerous than a hob, a grill or an oven.

 

Like I have already mentioned - the regulations appear to contradict each other.

[Chertsey]

So given my original suspicions where that the combustion process is 'open to the room' is this still considered dangerous or not,

 

 

- and are there any instantaneous water heaters that are sealed to the room (ie with a balanced flue) - we once had one at home (think it was made by Myson (sp) and it had a balanced flue that went through the wall it was affixed too...

 

Is there not a boat suitable equivalent??

No it isn't dangerous. This is why the BSS explicitly makes an exception for instantaneous water heaters from its 'room sealed' rule. Look it up on the BSS website. No one has died from CO poisoning on a boat as the result of one of these.

 

There are room sealed versions but they are expensive and require a constant 240v supply which is why no one ever fits them. That and because it is totally unecessary.

 

There may however be a new issue with regard to new boats which is nothing to do with the BSS but something I believe to do with British Standards. This comes up in a thread Felucca started recently.

 

However, this would be a problem for the seller, not the purchaser.

[PaddingtonBear]

Here here XWW, Makes for very ugly fitting of the heater as Alan has said and rubbish pipe work, you would have thought that they would have tried to do the pipe work neatly with copper and soldered fittings as it is on show.

[Guest]

No it isn't dangerous. This is why the BSS explicitly makes an exception for instantaneous water heaters from its 'room sealed' rule. Look it up on the BSS website. No one has died from CO poisoning on a boat as the result of one of these.

 

Do you want to run that past me again - I didn't quite catch it the first time....

Edited January 25, 2010 by MJG

[Chertsey]

Do you want to run that past me again - I didn't quite catch it the first time....

Or on all the other threads where it's come up...

[Guest]

Or on all the other threads where it's come up...

 

I take it there's been previous posts about this on the forum before then?

Edited January 25, 2010 by MJG

[Guest]

Thanks to all that posted - I now fully appreciate the issues about heating water by gas on board.

 

As an occasional boater (2-3) times per year and on hire boats I sort of thought I was confined to heating water by running my engine, genuinely believing that 'open to the room' instantaneous water heaters were confined to history.

 

I guess there must be some legitimate reason why hire companies don't fit these type of heaters to their boats, having never encountered one on a 'hire' before.

 

Good to know though if we wanted one on our own boat it would be safe and possible to do so.

 

Thanks again.

[alan_fincher]

I guess there must be some legitimate reason why hire companies don't fit these type of heaters to their boats, having never encountered one on a 'hire' before.

Don't most hire boats now come with full central heating, (either oil or diesel fired ?).

 

That will provide both heat to radiators, and heat water in a calorifier.

 

I can't imagine many hire boats rely solely on water in the calorifier being heated by the engine, do they ? People just expect too much hot running water for that to be the case.

 

The reason instantaneous water heaters are no longer fitted to hire boats is I would say that hot water is now usually acquired by two other routes, (water cooled engine and central heating boiler).

 

Back when Palomas were the standard fit many hire boats came without central heating, (at best you got a gas fire), and often had air-cooled Listers, so the engine was not heating any water either.

 

We have a Morco as back up to the engine heated water, as we don't have any central heating. If we did, I doubt we would have the Morco.

[Guest]

Don't most hire boats now come with full central heating, (either oil or diesel fired ?).

 

That will provide both heat to radiators, and heat water in a calorifier.

 

I can't imagine many hire boats rely solely on water in the calorifier being heated by the engine, do they ? People just expect too much hot running water for that to be the case.

 

The reason instantaneous water heaters are no longer fitted to hire boats is I would say that hot water is now usually acquired by two other routes, (water cooled engine and central heating boiler).

 

Back when Palomas were the standard fit many hire boats came without central heating, (at best you got a gas fire), and often had air-cooled Listers, so the engine was not heating any water either.

 

We have a Morco as back up to the engine heated water, as we don't have any central heating. If we did, I doubt we would have the Morco.

 

All the boats (6 different ones - on broads and canals) we've ever hired in recent years have come with a gas fired boiler for the central heating and engine heated via. a calorifier for the mains hot water.

[alan_fincher]

All the boats (6 different ones - on broads and canals) we've ever hired in recent years have come with a gas fired boiler for the central heating and engine heated via. a calorifier for the mains hot water.

Are you saying that none of those boats had a twin coil-calorifier, so the gas boiler could also heat domestic water when the engine wasn't ?

 

That would sound rather unlikely, given that people who hire boats often don't move every day.

 

Were they older boats ?

Edited January 25, 2010 by alan_fincher

[Guest]

Are you saying that none of those boats had a twin coil-calorifier, so the gas boiler could also heat domestic water when the engine wasn't ?

 

That would sound rather unlikely, given that people who hire boats often don't move every day.

 

Were they older boats ?

 

Hi Alan,

 

Number of coils in the calorfier - no idea I'm afraid I'm just going on what we were told when picked the boats up, and this was

 

- if you want hot water to wash up and shower with you need to run the engine, if you want to warm the boat you light the central heating boiler. This has applied to all the boats we have hired since 2003. A couple on the broads had blown air diesel powered central heating but still needed an engine run to heat the domestic water.

 

as to the age of the boats - last one we hired was Moira-

 

http://www.ashbyboats.com/Moira.htm

 

I'm not sure to be honest but she looks fairly new to me, I can ask when we pick her up (again) a week on Saturday.

 

Can't say I agree with

 

"given that people who hire boats often don't move every day"

 

We always make sure we move at least a few hours each day - otherwise what's the point of hiring a boat, a cottage or a static caravan would be often be cheaper. As hirers I don't think we're on our own in that respect.

Edited January 25, 2010 by MJG

[alan_fincher]

I agree that most hirers will boat at least a bit every day.

 

Equally, I know from observation, that quite a few people do hire boats and not do so.

 

I cannot imagine why anybody would build a boat for hire use, and provide a water based central heating system that wasn't also capable of heating the domestic water.

 

OK, not necessarily possible if a system is based on blown hot air, but if the boat has radiators, then the incremental cost of making the boiler able to heat domestic water is minimal.

 

Given that until recent years most hirings included all fuel, (diesel and gas), most hire boat operators would want people to use as little as possible.

 

It would make no sense if a boat had (say) decided to stay and see the attractions of Birmingham city centre, and all domestic water could only be heated by running the engine.

 

When you are there, ask Ashby why they have decided not to build a boat where the water can't be achieved either way. I'm sure ones they build for the private market would have it, so can't see why their hire fleet would not.

[Guest]

Well I will but to be fair Ashby are not the only company in my experience needed an engine run to heat the domestic hot water, Katies Drum from Silsden Boats (Canals) who we hired from last August was the same, and Grande Girl and Glitter Girl who we hired from Summercraft in Wroxham and Brinks Omega from Barnes Brinkcraft (Norfolk Broads) in years gone by are the same. The Summercraft boats however had blown air diesel fired central heating, Brinks Omega - I can't recall the central heating system type, but domestic hot water heating was still via the engine. Katies Drum had traditional radiators with a gas fired boiler but domestic hot water heating was via. the engine again.

 

The only one I can't definitely say needed the engine to run was Rosemary hired way back in 2003 (Now in private hands) from Snaygill Boats at Skipton, my memory's hazy on that one.

 

Having never used a hire boat and stayed in in the same place for more than one night - it's never been an issue for us apart from when there was nine of us on Katie's Drum last year - we soon ran out of hot water for showers and had to run the engine when stationary as you say.

Edited January 26, 2010 by MJG

[Tony Brooks]

I agree that most hirers will boat at least a bit every day.

 

Equally, I know from observation, that quite a few people do hire boats and not do so.

 

I cannot imagine why anybody would build a boat for hire use, and provide a water based central heating system that wasn't also capable of heating the domestic water.

 

OK, not necessarily possible if a system is based on blown hot air, but if the boat has radiators, then the incremental cost of making the boiler able to heat domestic water is minimal.

 

Given that until recent years most hirings included all fuel, (diesel and gas), most hire boat operators would want people to use as little as possible.

 

It would make no sense if a boat had (say) decided to stay and see the attractions of Birmingham city centre, and all domestic water could only be heated by running the engine.

 

When you are there, ask Ashby why they have decided not to build a boat where the water can't be achieved either way. I'm sure ones they build for the private market would have it, so can't see why their hire fleet would not.

 

 

With my ex-hire fleet engineer's hat on I can see exactly why customers would be told that, even if it were not exactly true. Lack of hot water only inconveniences the customer, flat domestic batteries means a call out and possibly lugging batteries across fields and down towpaths so you need something to maximise the engine running time. What easier than to tell the customer that the engine heats the hot water.

 

I well remember how, when we hired from Stroudwater Cruisers, the hand over chap questioned us closely on where we intended to go, When I asked why all this interest it transpired a customer had hired the boat the week before and just moved up the cut to a very close pub where they stayed for a week with very little engine running - busy battery lugging week.