Its not a boat but, ford starter motor problems?

[DHutch]

For a while ive been battling with a starter motor on the kitcar thats meshed really badly and ive not come to any great conclusion.

- The engines a ford CVH engine (1600block and head, taken out to 1900) mated to a ford aluminum bellhousing and a ford type9 rwd box.

 

Then over the last few weeks the solenoid (which is fairly new) has started packing up, no click, just draws current and sits there.

 

However tonight in a final push to get it right for a trackday on saturday a post on another forum has dropped a possable bombshell that FWD cvh's used a finer pitch starter and flywheel to the rwd's which shared the same pitch at the pintos, maybe also the zetecs? And that i might have a fwd flywheel.

- Flywheels marked as S2 RST , and the engines known to come out of a feista last time it was swaped. So if thats the case, its shaping up into the best explanation ive heard yet of the poor mesh. The engine, from a fwd, when last swaped, retainined if flywheel rather than the car retaining its. Error on the prevous owner part. He only had it a year, and if it got worse at the rate it has for me, seams to have go away with it. The more i look at the starter and flywheel, the more and more the pitch looks out.

 

 

So if theres anyone out there with any ford startermotor knowlage, can you confirm there was indeed diffrent pitches used?

 

If so can you suggest any other cars that may have used the finer pitch whos starter may fit onto a type9 bellhousing in anyway?

 

Failing that, can anyone comment on the possabilty of taking the pinon from a fwd starter and swaping it onto a rwd siera starter?

 

 

 

Daniel

[DHutch]

This is the info off the starter

 

Also some photos of the flywheel.

- Marked 200S in white/yellow and S2 RST in red on opersite sides.

 

 

 

 

Close ups of the flywheel/starter mesh when it got stuck in.

http://img43.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=dscn9229tb.jpg

 

 

Daniel

[RobinJ]

However tonight in a final push to get it right for a trackday on saturday a post on another forum has dropped a possable bombshell that FWD cvh's used a finer pitch starter and flywheel to the rwd's which shared the same pitch at the pintos, maybe also the zetecs? And that i might have a fwd flywheel.

- Flywheels marked as S2 RST , and the engines known to come out of a feista last time it was swaped. So if thats the case, its shaping up into the best explanation ive heard yet of the poor mesh. The engine, from a fwd, when last swaped, retainined if flywheel rather than the car retaining its. Error on the prevous owner part. He only had it a year, and if it got worse at the rate it has for me, seams to have go away with it. The more i look at the starter and flywheel, the more and more the pitch looks out.

Judging by the swarf and shiny metal I suspect you are right!

The only way is probably to count the teeth and measure everything and find a setup that has either the same flywheel or the same starter to compare. Then decide what is easier, change the flywheel or change the starter? This may not be based on ease, but on cost and availability of replacement starters?

[Sir Nibble]

I cannot see any of the pictures 'till I get back to my home connection but I shall look into it. Changing a pinion is no big deal if you're used to fiddly mechanisms, so long as both starters are the same type.

[mikevye]

Hi Dan'l, ford are the masters of "standardisation" why change something if it already works. The Transit Connect for instance has the old escort engine in it and when the KA was first introduced it had the a pushrod engine! I think looking at the throw of the starter motor (how far it engages) might reveal a problem area. I have not come across a convertion yet which involved seperating the engine and flywheel but I doubt very much if a pinto flywheel would fit a CVH engine without an adaptor plate.

[Sir Nibble]

Hi Dan'l, ford are the masters of "standardisation" why change something if it already works. The Transit Connect for instance has the old escort engine in it and when the KA was first introduced it had the a pushrod engine! I think looking at the throw of the starter motor (how far it engages) might reveal a problem area. I have not come across a convertion yet which involved seperating the engine and flywheel but I doubt very much if a pinto flywheel would fit a CVH engine without an adaptor plate.

There's history to this sort of stuff. for years ford issued starters for 1300 and 1600 mkIII escorts under the same part number and 1300 starters were less powerful and committed suicide on 1600s. Then there was the 2000 pinto sierra and transit, same base engine, same base starter, different pinions with different pitch.

[DHutch]

Yes i agree there is a lot of standardisation with ford gear, and the fact that i can just bolt a type9 stright upto a cvh (or indeed a zetec) highlights that well compaired to the vauxhal people who are claming over 1.8 opal manta box to mate to there redtops.

 

However it does pottentally seem that there was a change in pitch on the ring gear, or atlease, that the fwd cars used a diffrent pitch?

- Again ive only had one person comment on this directly, but it does look like it might be the case.

 

Hopfully this afternoon i will take said started to my local tame parts place and compair to both the one that apprently matchs the part number, which i expect will be a 1.8 cvh sierra (?) and then also one from a suitable 1.6 feista cvh and compair both the starters mounting and the pitch of the pinion.

 

As for the engauge looking insuffectent, that was not full engauge but a time when in got stuck/jamed halfway in (yay) although i agree there could also be issues with poor engaugement, due to a weak soleoid and or the poor mesh.

 

 

 

Daniel

[DHutch]

I cannot see any of the pictures 'till I get back to my home connection but I shall look into it. Changing a pinion is no big deal if you're used to fiddly mechanisms, so long as both starters are the same type.

Which of cause maybe the big if?

[NB Alnwick]

Dan, this may not be a great help but back in the 1970s I competed with a Ford engined Morgan. I always drove the car to the track even though it only had aero screens and tonneau for weather protection - so the car did a fair mileage. I used to get through starter motor pinions almost as quick as I got through spark plugs.

 

My engine, based on a 1600 pushrod block, had been built up by Broadspeed and had been bored and lined to provide 1998 cc with big valves, very high compression, full race cam and twin 45 DCOE Webber carbs. The engine was therefore much harder to turn over and start than the conventional engine for which the starter was intended. The starter ring fitted to the special lightweight flywheel was hardened and did not wear.

 

My solution was to have three starter motors, one on the car, one kept with the car (as a spare) and one in my workshop having a new pinion fitted! The spare starters and pinions nearly all came from scrap Cortinas etc in the local scrapyard. With practice, I soon got the time for changing a starter motor down to under two minutes!

Edited November 18, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[MarkAdrian]

Hi Daniel, Im not a mechanical wizz, but my son in law has built a Westfield. Im fairly sure that he had to use a pinto starter motor with a spacer ring for his type 9 box.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mark

[Sir Nibble]

Which of cause maybe the big if?

Yup. Starters on fords can be lucas, bosch, marelli, nippon denso or their own make.

[dcruk]

S2 RST sounds like series 2 RS turbo to me, bigger clutch if i remember rightly. FWD zetec stuff had a finer pitch than RWD pinto type stuff. We used to use redrilled FWD flywheels to fit pinto clutch. Some people use pinto flywheel but needs a RWD type starter that basically sticks into the bellhousing further. If you do have finer pitch, the Escort diesel starter is slim but has plenty off power, its been a while since i did anything with them but if you need any more info I'll do my best.

 

hth , Dave

 

ps. I'm working with some ex accomplices of yours from JCB at Harper Adams, they spotted my boat pics on the pc !

[DHutch]

Right well, as a follow up, ive just been over the autopart place (parkers parts) had a starter that matched mine sat alongside a start for a mk2 fiesta (circa1985 as per the enigne) and as well as the bolt pattern that was diffrent, the pinion was also a difrent profile.

- Both ten teeth as per mine old one. But the teeth on the fiesta where much narrower (seamingly the same spacing) and infact really quite odd looking even. Both starters looked the same other than that (good potental to swap bits) although at nearly £65 each exchange price bing both there and then was not really an option. PLus i dont really want to let got of the old one just yet!

 

Photos to follow.

 

I also then went down the local auto electrical place (RS autosparks) and talked to them for half an hour about the subject. They talked a lot about 9tooth pinions but said they would happly strip mine and try and get hold of a suitable pinon to fit it and do a full recon in the process if needed.

 

They also suggested the ocational relucatance to do anything at all might be brushes as the throw in windings earths through the static motor. Hence i could be seeing the draw from the hold in windings. No click, no whirr, not much load, but some.

 

 

 

Daniel

 

Hi Daniel, Im not a mechanical wizz, but my son in law has built a Westfield. Im fairly sure that he had to use a pinto starter motor with a spacer ring for his type 9 box.

Yes, that doesnt seam uncommon at all.

- I think he will have had a diffrent flywheel from me, but what engine was that?

 

 

Dan, this may not be a great help but back in the 1970s I competed with a Ford engined Morgan. I always drove the car to the track even though it only had aero screens and tonneau for weather protection - so the car did a fair mileage. I used to get through starter motor pinions almost as quick as I got through spark plugs.

Yes well, thats ofcause not irrelivent as although i sadly know little about this enigne, its certainly got a lot of non stadard things in it (camshaft for instance) as well as being sold as bored and stroked to 1900 (agian , no proof as such, other than it going quite well for a 1600, and the fact its not an uncommon or unheard of thing to do).

- That said, the rate im currently geting thought the ring gear i dont think i could get changing that down to 2minutes!

 

 

S2 RST sounds like series 2 RS turbo to me, bigger clutch if i remember rightly.

 

ps. I'm working with some ex accomplices of yours from JCB at Harper Adams, they spotted my boat pics on the pc !

Yes as you say Series 2 RS turbo sounds likely. Again, assuming thats right. As ofcause anyone can man a red paint pen.

- Im franticaly re cementing my knowlage of these cars, confirm for me that the rs turbo s2 was indeed fwd?

 

As for working a harper adams, god help you there! Who was it in partiualar do you know?

[dcruk]

Series 2 RS Turbo was very much FWD , and when chipped a complete handful!

 

Darryl Cottingham and Tom Worthington have come back for more of the same at Harpers , just at masters level. I am a mere Technician looking after the Engineering vehicles , only slightly different from the mainly Ginetta racecars i used to Race engineer for

 

Still have a Brise starter or two around somehwere that I had made up specially , shame they wont fit with the raceline sumps we used

 

Dave

[Iain_S]

(snip)

I also then went down the local auto electrical place (RS autosparks) and talked to them for half an hour about the subject. They talked a lot about 9tooth pinions but said they would happly strip mine and try and get hold of a suitable pinon to fit it and do a full recon in the process if needed.

 

IIRC from the days of Mk1 & 2 Escorts, Anglias, Cortinas etc, the 9 tooth pinion matched the 109 tooth ring gear, while the 10 tooth matched the 110 tooth ring gear. The vehicle that I was working on when I found this out had problems starting, and the cure was only found by counting the flywheel teeth.

 

Iain

[JohnD]

Hi there,im a newb here been lurking for ages but no boat yet so nothing realy I could offer worthwhile advice on but I saw Ford lol and had to answer, try talkin to this fella www.retroford.co.uk , he does lots of zetec and duratec RWD conversions in Fords and is a mine of information on anything Ford based, ask for Dave

[DHutch]

...the cure was only found by counting the flywheel teeth.

Would certainly add another straw to my hat. Partiuarly as over the weekend the car will be side by side to another with simular drivetrain (CVH on type nine) which has a successfull starter motor arrangment. The same person, who is my housemate at uni, may also have a spare alternator to compair.

Hi there,im a newb here been lurking for ages but no boat yet so nothing realy I could offer worthwhile advice on but I saw Ford lol and had to answer, try talkin to this fella www.retroford.co.uk , he does lots of zetec and duratec RWD conversions in Fords and is a mine of information on anything Ford based, ask for Dave

Will do!

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

26699a

 

That's just a note for me now I am at home and can see the pictures! Tomorrow I will be back at work and can see my catalogues.

Those M79 starters are quite prone to serious commutator wear as well as the brushes and I agree with the auto electrician you have consulted, that is likely to be the sticking symptoms you describe. The old inertia drive units used to stick in mesh and would need a belt with a hammer to free them. Pre-engaged starters show similar symptoms (faint click, no crank) with worn out brushes, and respond to the hammer as well. Not surprisingly this leads many people to believe their starter is sticking in mesh. In fact, on one or two occasions I have locked horns with potential customers convinced that sticking in mesh was their problem and concluding that if I didn't know that much then I am clearly incompetant!

 

Get a short length of wire with a fuse holder in and a crock clip on each end and install a 30A fuse. Next time it fails connect it from the motor side solenoid contact to earth. This will complete the solenoid circuit, byepassing the brushes, if that is the fault the starter will engage, the fuse will blow and the motor will most likely crank.

 

Now you definately do have a meshing problem, (look at that swarf!) AND probably a brush problem! Let me have a look at my info, I think a replacement starter is the best way forward IF one can be identified with a compatable pinion and mounting flange. Watch this space.