Engine/Ignition problem

[Sir Nibble]

I have carefully read this thread and I think I understand what you are getting at Breals. The small cable you describe is not a negative, it carries the supply current from the solenoid to the motor. The insulation is a braided sleeve and is meant to be loose, and inside is a braided cable that does feel crunchy. What you did with your jumpstarter connected as you describe was to replace everything in the system except the starter. You are now starting OK on the boat battery and cables so that suggests no problem there then. It looks like it may have just been a flat battery. are you sure there is no confusion as to which is the starter battery.

[Breals]

Thanks. I feel a bit silly that the problem was merely a battery problem...

 

I'm fairly sure the batteries are connected up correctly... at least, I keep running down my leisure batt to the point where my inverter starts beeping, whereas the starter is unaffected. I have fitted a new split charger with a suitable amp rating for my alternator, which is now working well.

 

Thanks Catweasel, I only had to use the 'Easystart' once... I gather engines can become reliant on it if overused.

Edited October 28, 2005 by Breals

[John Orentas]

Hi Breals.

 

Glad you have sorted everything out, but in the longer term and as you use an inverter you need to be sure the split charge relay and it's wiring are up to the job. The current rating of the alternator has little to do with it, the relay actually connects the starter battery and the domestic batteries together, that is all it does but of course at the right time. There can be situations when for example the domestic batteries are heavily discharged and the starter one is fully charged, as the relay connects them there can be a very considerable current flow through it, as much as perhaps 150 amps the relay and wiring must be capable of taking that load.

[Breals]

Just an update. After several weeks of trouble free and very enjoyable cruising, the problem has reocurred... at first the starter motor turned but not enough to start the engine, but now its not turning at all! The voltage to the solenoid is ok so it looks like my starter motor, which was probably a bit dicky anyway, has finally died!

 

I have arranged to have new starter motor and overhaul of the elecrtical charging and ignition systems, and possibly a battery management system. A christmas present for my boat.

 

In the meantime, thank god I bought that cheap genny!

[Breals]

 

Removing the starter motor this morning.

[Speedwell]

Just an update. After several weeks of trouble free and very enjoyable cruising, the problem has reocurred... at first the starter motor turned but not enough to start the engine, but now its not turning at all! The voltage to the solenoid is ok so it looks like my starter motor, which was probably a bit dicky anyway, has finally died!

 

I have arranged to have new starter motor and overhaul of the elecrtical charging and ignition systems, and possibly a battery management system. A christmas present for my boat.

 

In the meantime, thank god I bought that cheap genny!

It could be spark/arc damage on the contact bar. I don't know about your motor but in mine you can get at it to clean it by removing the end with the terminals. It requires a bit of unsoldering of the emerging wires to get it off but I've manager it and I'm no expert with a soldering iron. I've not checked all the previous posts but have you checked the brushes and cleaned the commutator. These 3 things can work wonders.

Arthur

[Breals]

A call from Autostart this morning. The starter motor's in a terrible state, has been repaired a couple of times previously and "looks like its been underwater".... So they're ordering a new one for me. Could this be the end to my problems? Probably not, but at least its one job done!

 

*Note to self - check whether water is dripping from the decking boards onto starter motor and rectify*

[Breals]

Latest update - new starter motor supplied by Autostart DOESN'T FIT....

 

AAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHHHH!

[DHutch]

Latest update - new starter motor supplied by Autostart DOESN'T FIT....

How annoying!!

[Breals]

Apparently it SHOULD fit, perhaps I am just too inept to fit it. It certainly wouldn't fit the mounting bracket at the back, but apparently this is unnecassary anyway. Will throw in the towel now and call in the pros. Taking it off was much easier than this!

[Breals]

Autostart have made a new fixing bracket, fitted the starter, and new glow plugs.

 

Problem now solved, she starts first time! Albeit with a screech (the teeth engaged by the starter motor are getting worn now - but that's a job for the future).

 

I would definitely recommend Mike at Autostart in Worcester for electrical and ignition problems on narrowboats, and fitting battery management systems.

 

AUTOSTART

Edited December 8, 2005 by Breals

[Bones]

Just a thought here: Sorry if I've missed something earlier, but maybe, just maybe it isn't electrical.........

 

I once had a tractor which would struggle to turn over, even with a good battery. The starter motor checked out fine. I could just about get it to start cold, but if it stalled when hot it was even worse at turning over.

 

Turned out that the engine had been frozen at one time and the block had distorted, making it very tight. It must have been on the verge of siezing whenever it got hot!

 

I am sure my connections are clean, but I wonder if they are clean enough....?

 

I haven't run my engine since June, and it stopped then because the engine wouldn't start one morning (and had been intermittent before). at the time an engineer came out to me and told me my electrics were dangerous. Got me started so I could get to my moorings, and since then Ihave been working on the boat. Now I would like to go for a cruise.

 

I turn the ignition key and the starter clicks and whirs a bit, but not very much then stops. The battery is new.

 

I take the positive cable from the starter motor and touch it by hand to the +ve on the starter battery and the same happens as above when I turn the ignition key.

 

The battery is then flat.

 

Any suggestions!? Electrics, as many of your will remember, make my BRAIN ACHE!!!!!!!!!

[Alec Gatherer]

Presuming it works the same as a car one, it sounds like it needs new brushes and/or the commutator cleaning up. Not too difficult for a DIY. Brushes are so cheap (if you're near Manchester I could probably let you hae a set) that it's worth trying; if new brushes don't fix the problem then it's off to the repair shop for a windings continuity check on the armature.

Typical case of cobbler's shoes - I have the exact same problem on my SR3 which I have yet to address. Don't suppose anyone is sitting on a spare SR starter motor?

[Bones]

Presuming it works the same as a car one, it sounds like it needs new brushes and/or the commutator cleaning up. Not too difficult for a DIY. Brushes are so cheap (if you're near Manchester I could probably let you hae a set) that it's worth trying; if new brushes don't fix the problem then it's off to the repair shop for a windings continuity check on the armature.

Typical case of cobbler's shoes - I have the exact same problem on my SR3 which I have yet to address. Don't suppose anyone is sitting on a spare SR starter motor?

 

 

what is a commutator? (I'm not in manchester)

[Alec Gatherer]

what is a commutator? (I'm not in manchester)

It's the part of the armature (which is the rotating bit with the windings, drive pinion etc.) which collects the current, i.e. the copper "block" formed of segments on which the brushes bear. It is quite easy to clean but the cleaning must be done in the correct manner; it is quite easy to damage the commutator by over-eager abrasive cleaning.

I will try to post a photo when I have repaired my own starter - 2012 should be about right.

[Bones]

hmm... this sounds as though I ought to take the whole thing off and take it to someone!

[Keeping Up]

hmm... this sounds as though I ought to take the whole thing off and take it to someone!

If it is a newly charged starter battery, but the starter flattens it within a few seconds as your post implies, then it sounds like that would be the best solution. Starters can develop internal short-circuits that have that effect, and usually then a replacement is the cheapest solution (although, note to Alec, when our old SR3 starter died in that way, a complete rewind was surpringly cheap by comparison).

 

I was going to suggest the alternative possibility, as you haven't run the engine for some time, that your battery charger is charging the domestic batteries but not the starter one. Doesn't sound like that's your problem, as you say it's a new starter battery, but I mention it because some friends of mine suffered that fate so it may happen to others.

 

Allan

[Bones]

If it is a newly charged starter battery, but the starter flattens it within a few seconds as your post implies, then it sounds like that would be the best solution. Starters can develop internal short-circuits that have that effect, and usually then a replacement is the cheapest solution (although, note to Alec, when our old SR3 starter died in that way, a complete rewind was surpringly cheap by comparison).

 

Allan

 

Damn! And you will probably remember the trouble I had re-bolting it on so well in the first place!!!!!

 

definately not the battery - I checked it and its beautifully charged, and I charged it again.

 

What a shame I can just hammer it into submission!

[Keeping Up]

Damn! And you will probably remember the trouble I had re-bolting it on so well in the first place!!!!!

 

definately not the battery - I checked it and its beautifully charged, and I charged it again.

 

What a shame I can just hammer it into submission!

But now you've had so much practice at bolting and unbolting it, this time it should be a doddle!

[John Orentas]

But now you've had so much practice at bolting and unbolting it, this time it should be a doddle!

 

 

Is somebody pulling somebody's leg in this topic!

[Bones]

Is somebody pulling somebody's leg in this topic!

 

 

[DHutch]

Just to confirm, when you say the battery is "new" what eactly do you mean?

 

Is it new as in, it was fitted and working about 6 months ago, but may have gone flat since then.

 

Or "new" as in, recently charged up (ie, at home or a garage, and taken to the boat)

 

Or is it "new" as in just out of its shrinkwrap from Quickfit?

 

 

 

Becuase that could be the problem. My dad got a "new" battery for his car a few years ago, i watched the mechanic take it out of the shrinkwrap. But yet it didnt have enought power in to start the engine, and he still had to bump it off another battery before leaving the engine running till my dad got back.

 

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

Bones, do you have, or can you borrow a voltmeter/multimeter? And if I remember, you have a bmc, correct? I have a spare bmc starter, and I can easily find parts and have rebuilt more of these than I would wish to remember, but first how about that meter?

[Bones]

Bones, do you have, or can you borrow a voltmeter/multimeter? And if I remember, you have a bmc, correct? I have a spare bmc starter, and I can easily find parts and have rebuilt more of these than I would wish to remember, but first how about that meter?

 

The battery was new in June, and was beautifully charged and is indeed beautifully charged. I had another go with the starter motor yesterday and did the following:

 

I checked the battery with a metre I borrowed (no snibble I don't have a multimeter - I ought to) and it was good.

 

I then put the starter cable back onto the isolator switch which I turned on, then I started the engine with the ignition key, the solenoid clicked, the motor coughed and the alternator turned a bit.

 

It seemed that there simply wasn't enough power getting to the battery - but the battery was still good. So, I tried again, and it did the same, and then I tried again and it did the same, then I tried again and there was a 'puff' and a plume of smoke.

 

The cable going from the solenoid to the starter motor was rather warm.

 

What do I do - do I really take the starter motor off and take it to the shop, OR is there something else electrical?

 

The wire is as follows - as far as I can see.

 

Red from alternator to starter motor nut, and from that nut on the solenoid there is a chunky red wire to the battery isolator.

 

There is a cable from the solenoid to the starter,

 

And a cable from the ignition to the solenoid.

 

I can't see a negative and persume the case is the negative (the battery negative bolts onto metal near the starter motor.

[John Orentas]

Bones.

 

I am still not convinced that this whole thing is not a 'wind up'. But if it isn't I think you will find that you simply have a flat battery.

 

Measure the battery voltage and crank the engine simultaneously.