Engine/Ignition problem

[Breals]

Back to the original topic! THANKS to everyone for their comments. The boat is now back in commission!

 

Connected a jumpstarter +ve lead to the positive terminal on the solenoid, and the -ve to nut at the back, and it soon started. Dunno why the mechanics and the RCR bloke didn't manage to get it started in this way - guess they didn't have CWF's experience and expertise to rely on heh heh! After a short cruise my voltmeter's reading 13-14V in the starter battery, so they are now nicely topped up and the engine's starting as normal.

 

As a bonus I can run all my pumps off the jumpstarter, as the leisure battery is still very low on juice.

 

Would it be worth putting a new connection from the nut at the back of the solenoid to the -ve terminal on the solenoid, bypassing the thick black wire which would appear to be confirmed as the fault?

Edited October 8, 2005 by Breals

[John Orentas]

Hi Breals.

 

What you need to do now is narrow down the fault and rectify the problem, it obviously won't be the cable itself so you will probably need to remake the cable terminations. You should do this by using proper crimped connections or by soldering proper unions onto the cable, make sure everything is clean and fully tightened. Remember you need very heavy cable 25 sq. mm as a minimum.

 

Don't assume your battery is fully charged just because you have a healthy voltage reading, the best indication for a fully charged battery is when the charge rate drops right back to 1 or 2 amps.

Edited October 8, 2005 by John Orentas

[Breals]

That is the short cable which 'dives' inside the starter, so I can't get at the terminal - however the nut at the back seems to hold it in place so looks like a common point of connection. I have already cleaned the terminals on the solenoid so I know that's not the issue. The short length of cable does seem as if it might be at fault - it feels crunchy inside and the insulation is loose around it so I assume it may have corroded badly.

 

Point taken about the state of the starter batt. The quick spin (about 4hrs) didn't make the slightest difference to the output of my leisure batt but then that was significantly more discharged.

[Breals]

That is the short cable which 'dives' inside the starter, so I can't get at the terminal - however the nut at the back seems to hold it in place so looks like a common point of connection. The short length of cable does seem as if it might be at fault - it feels crunchy inside and the insulation is loose around it so I assume it may have corroded badly. Its worth ruling out first, as the other connections aren't that dirty and are certainly not corroded.

 

Point taken about the state of the starter batt. The quick spin (about 4hrs) didn't make the slightest difference to the output of my leisure batt but then that was significantly more discharged.

[DHutch]

Don't assume your battery is fully charged just because you have a healthy voltage reading, the best indication for a fully charged battery is when the charge rate drops right back to 1 or 2 amps.

That doesnt make sence, as if the battery regulation is done purely on voltage!!

- Also, rest voltage is a very good indication of charge leval, and long as it been at rest for 6 or more hours, 12/24 for best)

 

 

Daniel

[John Orentas]

That doesnt make sence, as if the battery regulation is done purely on voltage!!

- Also, rest voltage is a very good indication of charge leval, and long as it been at rest for 6 or more hours, 12/24 for best)

Daniel

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Daniel.

 

I have never heard of 'rest voltage'! Regulation is certainly not done purely on voltage it is the electrical resistance of the battery that is important. To a very great extent a battery regulates it's own charging, when it reaches a fully charged state the internal resistance drops and therefore the charge current current drops in proportion.

[alan_fincher]

That is the short cable which 'dives' inside the starter, so I can't get at the terminal - however the nut at the back seems to hold it in place so looks like a common point of connection. The short length of cable does seem as if it might be at fault - it feels crunchy inside and the insulation is loose around it so I assume it may have corroded badly. Its worth ruling out first, as the other connections aren't that dirty and are certainly not corroded.

 

Point taken about the state of the starter batt. The quick spin (about 4hrs) didn't make the slightest difference to the output of my leisure batt but then that was significantly more discharged.

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Breals,

 

I may be being thick, but.....

 

I'm not entirely sure where you jumpstarted to, but as you appera to have no way of applying positive directly on to the starter motor itself, surely whatever you did DIDN'T bypass the short bit of cable between solenoid and starter motor itself ?

 

If so, then surely you managed to start it with that bit of cable in circuit, and carrying the full starter current ?

 

That would say to me that it ISN'T the problem part of the whole circuit, but that you are 'losing' volts somewhere before then.

 

What am I not understanding, please ?

[Breals]

I don't know Alan, I'm sure you're being a lot less thick than me. Looking back to the photo, I connected +ve to the nut on the solenoid on the left hand side, with the red cables coming off it. The -ve was connected to the nut behind the thick black wire (unfortunately I had removed this nut when I took the picture, but it was on the back of the starter unit itself, directly behind where the cable exits).

 

I don't think that the +ve between the batt and solenoid is faulty, the connections are clean and the cable seems sound enough.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Breals

[John Orentas]

I think we covered the leisure battery earlier, after a four hour charge have plenty of life in it. I suspect the split charge system is faulty, next time you run the engine connect the two batteries permanently together.

 

If that doesn't do it the battery is a dud.

[alan_fincher]

I don't know Alan, I'm sure you're being a lot less thick than me. Looking back to the photo, I connected +ve to the nut on the solenoid on the left hand side, with the red cables coming off it. The -ve was connected to the nut behind the thick black wire (unfortunately I had removed this nut when I took the picture, but it was on the back of the starter unit itself, directly behind where the cable exits).

 

I don't think that the +ve between the batt and solenoid is faulty, the connections are clean and the cable seems sound enough.

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So you are still passing your starter current through the wire in the picture that goes from the right hand solenoid connection, into the starter itself. But this is the wire I think you are saying you are suspicious of ?

 

To me it sounds like it's not the problem, even if it doesn't "feel" too good.

 

I'd still go for the things I and others have suggested using a voltmeter, to see where you are actually dropping the volts.

 

Alan

[Breals]

I think we covered the leisure battery earlier, after a four hour charge have plenty of life in it. I suspect the split charge system is faulty, next time you run the engine connect the two batteries permanently together.

 

If that doesn't do it the battery is a dud.

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I think you could well be right about the split charging mechanism, although I'm trying not to think about it too much right now! As for whether the battery's a dud, I'm not sure about this one - this is a 110Ahr battery previously used as the starter (I've swapped it back to being the leisure batt after getting a brand new starter). What makes me think you're right about the split charging is that the fusebox lights remain dim, even when the engine is started. Next time I'm out I'll connect the two batts. And make sure the jumpstarters charged up, just in case.

[Breals]

Alan, I agree, a thorough going over of the electrical connections is certainly required.

 

I will do this when I have time - but now we've at least ruled out more serious problems, I can relax a bit and continue sorting out my affairs as I move aboard. There are a few other things gnawing at me too - I won't list them all here now, or I won't have anything to post next week!

Edited October 8, 2005 by Breals

[John Orentas]

" - it feels crunchy inside and the insulation is loose around it so I assume it may have corroded badly".

 

 

Crunchy! I don't like the sound of that. Burned or carbonised insulation ? Sounds like something has been very hot at some time. You will need to look into that.

[Big COL]

" - it feels crunchy inside and the insulation is loose around it so I assume it may have corroded badly".

Crunchy!  I don't like the sound of that. Burned or carbonised insulation ? Sounds like something has been very hot at some time.  You will need to look into that.

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John

 

The link from the solenoid to the starter motor may not be a cable! Some starters use a woven copper band and sleeve it. If this is the case it will feel crunchy.

[rayman]

breals, "it feels crunchy and the insulation is loose," thats how that wire usually is,your looking in the wrong place mate.

[bottle]

Breals

 

If you connected the +ve to the left terminal on the solenoid and the -ve somewhere else.(not sure where)

 

I would check the cable from the (start) permanent battery to the solenoid. As you bypassed it.

 

I expect the return -ve connection from the starter is via its casing to the engine to the hull to the battery.

 

Check the cable that connects the engine to the hull and the one that connects the hull to the battery.

 

check all connections by taking apart cleaning and putting back together, when happy that they are ok cover them in Vaseline.

[Breals]

The connections as far as the solenoid have been taken apart and cleaned - I'm very happy, for the time being, to have ruled out starter motor or engine problems, and can at least fall back on the method I used today to start the engine until I have time to carry out a proper inspection of all the connections.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Breals

[rayman]

breals,

if you need to test or eliminate a certain cable, then ,use a single jump lead to "replace it". don't go to the trouble of ripping the suspect cable out, just "temporarily" replace it , do it one cable at a time, you MUST make sure your "tempory" lead has a good BITE. If you have to replace smaller cables, then use cable of that size, or larger. You got it started by going direct, so to start with, remove either the red or black cable, then see if it still starts, if it does, then you can assume that it is ok along that side of the circuit, if it does not start, then we are still wiser arn'et we? (i hope) god, i hate writing long posts, please feel free to annoy me a bit more just my sad sarcasm good luck.

[bottle]

The connections as far as the solenoid have been taken apart and cleaned

 

But how about the cable to the lug connections, the cable may be OK, the lug may be OK but corrosion can set up inside the lug.

 

Sorry to keep throwing more items to check into the arena, when you get this sorted you will be the new 'expert' on the cut.

 

Happy boating

[rayman]

But how about the cable to the lug connections, the cable may be OK, the lug may be OK but corrosion can set up inside the lug.

 

Sorry to keep throwing more items to check into the arena, when you get this sorted you will be the new 'expert' on the cut.

 

Happy boating 

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My post will confirm or eradicate? these suggestions

[Breals]

This is beginning to go round and round in circles! A bit like my brain at the moment... Just wait till I start asking about the cooling system! It's been a long day. My cruise was a complete washout and a kid threw a stone at me. And a dog peed on my mooring ropes. The last thing i wanted was to spend the rest of the day with my head in the engine compartment. It'll keep.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Breals

[rayman]

20 yrs eperience help?

[Breals]

I'll tell you in 20 yrs

[Breals]

Sorry I've been away for a wee while... boating!

 

The RCR sent someone else to have a look at my engine. He felt it might be my glow plugs, and also that my battery just wasn't up to the job (why didn't the other RCR guy spot this?)! So we got a new batt, sprayed some 'Easy Start' into the air intake, and she eventually started. She's been starting ok since then, touch wood, although occasionally it takes a few attempts. I don't think its the glow plugs, as they seem to be working and I haven't had to resort to the 'Easy Start' again.

 

When I started cruising I found the exhaust was smoking a lot, and was slightly worried about this, but the problem seems to have cured itself, perhaps all she needed was a good run.

Edited October 27, 2005 by Breals

[Guest]

Sorry I've been away for a wee while... boating!

 

The RCR sent someone else to have a look at my engine. He felt it might be my glow plugs, and also that my battery just wasn't up to the job (why didn't the other RCR guy spot this?)! So we got a new batt, sprayed some 'Easy Start' into the air intake, and she eventually started. She's been starting ok since then, touch wood, although occasionally it takes a few attempts. I don't think its the glow plugs, as they seem to be working and I haven't had to resort to the 'Easy Start' again.

 

When I started cruising I found the exhaust was smoking a lot, and was slightly worried about this, but the problem seems to have cured itself, perhaps all she needed was a good run.

 

Careful with "easy start" type products-they have been known to damage engines when used excessively.