Alternator Paralleler Circuit

[chris w]

No. What it proves is that infinity is a concept, or a device. It doesn't actually exist and maffs cannot deal with it.

Gibbo

Of course maths can deal with it..........

 

Here are two contradictory equations:

 

First: ∞ + 1 = ∞

Subtracting infinity from both sides, we get

 

1 = 0

So, therefore ALL numbers = 0

 

 

Secondly ∞ + n = ∞ + m

Subtracting infinity from both sides, we get

 

m = n

 

So, any number is equal to any other number.

 

So is arithmetic broken?

Well, no. One is still not equal to zero. The problem is that is the first step we assume that infinity does not have a fixed value it is equal to itself plus one. In the second step we assume that infinity does have a fixed value that it can be subtracted from both sides, leaving the equality relation intact. These assumptions are contradictory, thus infinity has to be handled in a special way.

 

But that doesn't mean it cannot be used.

 

The equation I quoted above, viz: Let y = 1/x + 1/x² + 1/x³ + 1/x⁴ +............+1/xⁿ is not solvable in the life of the universe without the concept of infinity. With that concept it can be solved in a minute.

 

Mortgage payment and loan repayment etc type equations use the same concept to calculate the correct monthly payments. It couldn't be done otherwise.

Edited May 20, 2009 by chris w

[Gibbo]

Mortgage payment and loan repayment etc type equations use the same concept to calculate the correct monthly payments.

 

But as I explained to you. I haven't got one

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

But as I explained to you. I haven't got one

 

Gibbo

That's why I didn't say YOUR mortgage payments in the last post

[Guest]

My pension is not calculated as stated. I never took one out. I never expected to live this long.

[weeble]

My pension is not calculated as stated. I never took one out. I never expected to live this long.

Wish I hadn't bothered now either...... my pension pot shrank by a third over the last year. How does that fit into any equation?

 

Oh! I know, by the time I come to retire the amount left will be infinitely small. Perhaps Chris is right after all, 'infinity' does exist

[Smelly]

We need an "On Topic" Smiley methinks...

 

Have just made adjustments so that my circuit is exactly as #168, diode across the coil of the latch relay, got rid of the illuminated switch in case the LED was doing wierd things and, just in case, put a bigger wire from W to the latch coil... Nuffin. The only difference is 7.13 V at the coil +ve terminal which is inside the accuracy of the meter so means nowt.

 

Will try circuit number two tomorrow afternoon if the weather allows, if that doesn't work I'll connect the latch straight to the batteries via the switch and start hunting for a spare reg for this alt.

 

Sorry Pete, I tried!

 

As an aside, I find it quite invigorating getting home from w*rk and jumping down the engine 'ole... I need more projects like this one!

 

Edit... with Chris and Snibble's system in mind, I assume I can take the back of the brush holder box and solder to the wire to which, on the domestic side, the Sterling is connected to.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Smelly

[smileypete]

Have just made adjustments so that my circuit is exactly as #168, diode across the coil of the latch relay, got rid of the illuminated switch in case the LED was doing wierd things and, just in case, put a bigger wire from W to the latch coil... Nuffin. The only difference is 7.13 V at the coil +ve terminal which is inside the accuracy of the meter so means nowt.

All isn't lost.

 

If you would like me to help, before I suggest any changes, please do exactly the following and nothing else:

 

Measure the current from the W terminal to the latch relay, using the DC 10A range*, while the engine is running and with push button pressed.

 

Then take the bulb out of Lamp 1 and exactly repeat the above step again.

 

Then post just the two measurements.

 

(*Note: double check the correct sockets on the meter are used)

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 20, 2009 by smileypete

[Smelly]

All isn't lost.

 

If you would like me to help, before I suggest any changes, please do exactly the following and nothing else:

 

Measure the current from the W terminal to the latch relay, using the DC 10A range*, while the engine is running and with push button pressed.

 

Then post just the measurement.

 

(*Note: double check the correct sockets on the meter are used)

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

0.01A... That's with the probes parallel to W and the terminal which my physic teacher told me was wrong, but I'm willing to guess my multimeter compensates... Checked the correct sockets were used too!

 

edit for spelling and to say I'm, going to tescos now...

Edited May 20, 2009 by Smelly

[smileypete]

0.01A... That's with the probes parallel to W and the terminal which my physic teacher told me was wrong, but I'm willing to guess my multimeter compensates... Checked the correct sockets were used too!

 

I'm afraid your physics teacher was right, the meter must be in series between W and the latch relay.

 

So put it in series, and please do the following:

 

Measure the current from the W terminal to the latch relay, using the DC 10A range, while the engine is running and with push button pressed.

 

Then take the bulb out of Lamp 1, or disconnect one end of Lamp 1, and exactly repeat the above step again.

 

Then post just the two measurements.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 20, 2009 by smileypete

[Smelly]

I'm afraid your physics teacher was right, the meter must be in series between W and the latch relay.

 

So put it in series, and please do the following:

 

Measure the current from the W terminal to the latch relay, using the DC 10A range, while the engine is running and with push button pressed.

 

Then take the bulb out of Lamp 1, or disconnect one end of Lamp 1, and exactly repeat the above step again.

 

Then post just the two measurements.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Well that's a croc clips job so off down the pound shop the morra!

[chris w]

w*rk and jumping down the engine 'ole... I need more projects like this one!

 

Edit... with Chris and Snibble's system in mind, I assume I can take the back of the brush holder box and solder to the wire to which, on the domestic side, the Sterling is connected to.

It's not as simple as that on mine. You have to take off the regulator and break the connection between the collector of the regulator output transistor and the field brush. In doing this, the field brush mechanical support has to be desoldered to separate the bits above. Thus a modicum of metal bending is required to resupport the brush.

 

Chris

[Smelly]

It's not as simple as that on mine. You have to take off the regulator and break the connection between the collector of the regulator output transistor and the field brush. In doing this, the field brush mechanical support has to be desoldered to separate the bits above. Thus a modicum of metal bending is required to resupport the brush.

 

Chris

 

Having done the Sterling I can see where you're coming from there... Instead of soldering to the soldered joint i need to desolder it, or cut the spring from the brush and connect directly to the spring...

 

Those regulators are really cheap, I might buy 2 although I'm going to play with Pete a bit more first...

 

Pete, will you be tied up between 2.30 and 5 tomorrow, if so do you want to send a test list, by PM if you'd prefer so I can work through some jobs. I reckon I'll be home by 2.30 3 ish so give it a couple of hours playtime before making any serious decisions.

[chris w]

Having done the Sterling I can see where you're coming from there... Instead of soldering to the soldered joint i need to desolder it, or cut the spring from the brush and connect directly to the spring...

I followed Snibble's suggestion. I desoldered the connection to the brush and bent the metal tag down and under the plastic lip as is done already (in manufacture) with the other brush (the D+ brush). I then soldered one wire to the field brush (a white wire to go to the Sterling white wire) and soldered a wire to the now unsoldered tag that disappears inside the regulator. This is the collector of the output transistor and it is to this that the negative of the small relay connects.

 

As I have said previously, the circuit works perfectly, the relay dropping out cleanly at 14.35v in my case. Just be really gentle jiggling the regulator back into position. It's not difficult, it just needs care to prevent the brushes being snapped off. You need to offer the regulator up at an angle and then turn it into the vertical position to enable the retaining screws to go back in. When you take the regulator off, watch very carefully the angle at which it comes out and try to emulate that when putting it back.

 

Chris

Edited May 20, 2009 by chris w

[Gibbo]

As I have said previously, the circuit works perfectly, the relay dropping out cleanly at 14.35v in my case. Just be really gentle jiggling the regulator back into position. It's not difficult, it just needs care to prevent the brushes being snapped off. You need to offer the regulator up at an angle and then turn it into the vertical position to enable the retaining screws to go back in. When you take the regulator off, watch very carefully the angle at which it comes out and try to emulate that when putting it back.

 

A lot of those regs have a line of holes in the brush holders.

 

Push the brushes in against the springs and poke a stout piece of wire through the holes. This holds the brushes in. Fit the reg, then remove the wire at which time the brushes spring back out against the slip rings.

 

Gibbo

[Sir Nibble]

This spark, has pocketed his screwdriver and is going to the pub.

[Smelly]

Pete you were about to suggest a capacitor but not only have Maplins none in stock, the smallest being 63V but to get the AT15 would take either 3 working days by post, and cost 3.50 to post 69p's worth of gizmo, a thought that offends me at a deep and irrational level so that's out of the window. Niether do they sell any suitable croc clips nor have the ound shops any in stock.

 

Games off, I'd be minded to try circuit 2 but... My concern is that W, as we know, won't hold a relay closed, especially the contactor, so I'lll need some persuasion.

 

In the meantime, until I can get a spare reg for the alt It's being connected to ignition +ve.

 

edit... a thought occurs... The consensus is that residual current from the alt will mean that D is live enough after the alt has shut down to keep the contactor closed.

 

We also know that with a 12v 5W bulb in series to the contactor & connected directly to the batteries, the contactor will still close so would the residual current from D be enough to still energise the bulb/contactor in series arrangement. If the answer is no then bulb/contactor from D would work to let the contactor open...

 

Discuss!

Edited May 21, 2009 by Smelly

[Smelly]

That nearly worked but the latch relay isn't staying closed.

[smileypete]

So the latch relay closes when you push the button, but doesn't stay closed?

 

That seems to indicate it's not wired correctly, possibly the relay contacts aren't connected in some way.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 21, 2009 by smileypete

[Smelly]

I think there's a break in the cable to lamp 1... the diode tester can't find a return path... However the pushbutton is DEFINITELY across the switched side of the relay and the direct to 0V. Despite the apparent failure of lamp 1, the contactor is closing until I take my finger off the push button.

 

The latch relay closes... then re-opens... Duff relay? Bad contact? Nope, confused contacts... Start again!

Edited May 21, 2009 by Smelly

[smileypete]

I think there's a break in the cable to lamp 1... the diode tester can't find a return path... However the pushbutton is DEFINITELY across the switched side of the relay and the direct to 0V. Despite the apparent failure of lamp 1, the contactor is closing until I take my finger off the push button.

 

The latch relay closes... then re-opens... Duff relay? Bad contact?

Double check the relay works OK and is connected OK:

 

Disconnect it, and use a meter to find which terminals are the coil, they'll be a resistance of about 50-200 ohms between them. Label them clearly.

 

Then check the other two terminals, which are the contacts,have infinite resistance between them.

 

Then connect 12V across the coil terminals, and check the contact terminals have zero resistance between them. Label the contact terminals clearly.

 

Then connect it carefully back into your circuit.

 

It could be you have a duff crimp connection if the relay is fine.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

That nearly worked but the latch relay isn't staying closed.

 

BTW is this from W, and with the engine running and with the contactor connected up?

 

You really could do with having Lamp 1 working.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 21, 2009 by smileypete

[Smelly]

Well, it was definitely wired correctly in the end, but the latch relay wasn't closing, I believe it was the pushbutton that was making the circuit when i pushed it.

 

I tried a new relay, no joy. So in best faux Geordie accent... day 4 down the engine ole, and the wear is starting to show on the contestant... I give up!

 

the coil of the relay bridged round to the switched side, across the switch and to earth. i thought it might be something to with the neg from the contactor being attached to the earths from the coil so I put a diode in, but that didn't help, so I'm just switching the relay with the ignition, and the relay is switching the contactor, and it's working so it'll do.

 

I'll try the regulator modification next week. Might play with circuit number two this weekend but stand by my reservations as stated.

[smileypete]

Well, it was definitely wired correctly in the end, but the latch relay wasn't closing, I believe it was the pushbutton that was making the circuit when i pushed it.

 

As I said in the previous post, is this from W, and with the engine running and with the contactor connected up?

 

As I said in the previous post, you really do need to have Lamp 1 working, just so you can see and I can understand what's going on. Is Lamp 1 working?

 

If I can't get direct answers to straight questions then I'm sorry but I simply cannot help.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Smelly]

As I said in the previous post, is this from W, and with the engine running and with the contactor connected up?

 

As I said in the previous post, you really do need to have Lamp 1 working, just so you can see and I can understand what's going on. Is Lamp 1 working?

 

If I can't get direct answers to straight questions then I'm sorry but I simply cannot help.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

it was from W, D and finally from the ignition with it feeding both latch relay and contactor. With a known good live to the latch relay coil the latch relay wasn't closing so I'm not going to do anymore headstands as i'm rather demoralised.

 

Sorry Pete, at this stage i'm not really asking, just thinking aloud. I'd given up when Maplins sdidn't have bits. Lamp one might be an indictor, but the contactor closing is just as good.

 

I wonder... In Chris's original circuit the latching switch was before the coil, as opposed to parallel to the switch. i'm going to try it that way at the weekend before I give up completely.

 

I'm going to the pub now.

[smileypete]

it was from W, D and finally from the ignition with it feeding both latch relay and contactor. With a known good live to the latch relay coil the latch relay wasn't closing so I'm not going to do anymore headstands as i'm rather demoralised.

 

Sorry Pete, at this stage i'm not really asking, just thinking aloud. I'd given up when Maplins sdidn't have bits. Lamp one might be an indictor, but the contactor closing is just as good.

In that case the circuit is mis-wired. Possibly a poor connection or a diode the wrong way round.

 

It sounds like Lamp 1 isn't working, which it won't if there's a poor connection or a diode the wrong way round.

 

I'm really sorry but I've got to call it a day, well done for getting this far.

 

It seems part of the problem is that instead of just carefully following the tests in post #168, you're getting sidetracked trying it from D, thinking about getting another regulator, thinking about trying another circuit, and by all the posts/PMs saying it will/won't/will/won't work.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited May 21, 2009 by smileypete

[Smelly]

In that case the circuit is mis-wired. Possibly a poor connection or a diode the wrong way round.

 

It sounds like Lamp 1 isn't working, which it won't if there's a poor connection or a diode the wrong way round.

 

I'm really sorry but I've got to call it a day, well done for getting this far.

 

It seems part of the problem is that instead of just carefully following the tests

in post #168, you're getting sidetracked trying it from D, thinking about getting another regulator, thinking about trying another circuit, and by all the posts/PMs saying it will/won't/will/won't work.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Of the two wires connected to lamp one, using a diode tester, then the lamp casing beeps when connected to one side of the dual core cable to which it is connected but the sticky out bit in the middle doesn't beep when tested against the other side.

 

Outside the dilemma of W & D, working with ignition +ve seems a good way to iron out problems.

 

I've come to the conclusion that the push switch paralleled to the latching relay it is in the wrong place. I will try it tomorrow. I appreciate help, PM and otherwise but having invested so much time into this I can't make one change and wait for a response, my time is limited.

 

I've cut all the diodes off the latching relay. there is, very literally a straight path... coil +ve... coil -ve.. switched side number 1 switched side number 2, battery negative, with no semiconductors in the way. Parallel to the switched outputs there is a push button switch that, according to the received wisdom here, should provide a route to earth for the coil, hence energising the coil, closing the switched side of the relay and latching the circuit but, whichever way I try it the relay isn't closing.

 

It's just been completely dismantled, marked and put back together again, with a good -ve that is proved, in the absence of another decent explanation then whether it be W, D or batt positive it simply doesn't work; i believe the push button isn't in the right place.

 

The PMs have been more "will it/won't it" as opposed to "it will/it won't", I am at various folk's behest, but what I have been told is that W is a Red herring, hence moving to attaching the latch relay to batt +ve and even when i took it apart, marked all the contacts and put it back together properly it didn't work. The only variant I can identify is the position of the push switch. As to dodgy wiring... until yesterday I have tested what's connected to what time and time again and I got two cables the wrong way round. SO i put them back together again, properly... and... It didn't work.

 

Taking the alternator out of the equation, carefully marking everything having tested all the connections, then lamp one is an indicator only the contactor being the other one. The push button is the contactor's only way to ground and the contactor is working when the push is pressed, yet the latch relay isn't closing.

 

I've spent two hours typing this. At least I hope have demonstrated my point without a circuit diagram that without software is a pain in the arse.

 

I have nearly given up hope. Lets write the W connection out, get the latch relay to close and work from there... please