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Morphyous
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I am looking at a sailaway nb which has been worked on since 2006. The guy is selling and asking for

10% of the work to be completed http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=103780

I think I would be responsible for rcd if I were to buy it uncompleted. I have written to the guy and asked how I could

assemble a manual if I have no knowledge of prior works carried out and the standard of these works.

Advice would be very welcome on whether it would be unwise to consider this purchase.

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When buying my boat, my surveyor discovered the RCD was incomplete and there was no CE plate, he said it was illegal to sell the boat like this

So my surveyor helped the seller complete the RCD so that the sale could take place.

 

If you want to buy the boat then you must get the help of a surveyor.

And if you decide to buy it without an RCD, then you must have all the information required for the RCD before the sale,

so you'll need to know the RCD inside out or employ the assistance of someone who does.

 

 

If the seller is genuine and has just run out of money, then he might help you.

 

But he might not, so you need to make sure you're covered.

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When buying my boat, my surveyor discovered the RCD was incomplete and there was no CE plate, he said it was illegal to sell the boat like this

So my surveyor helped the seller complete the RCD so that the sale could take place.

 

If you want to buy the boat then you must get the help of a surveyor.

And if you decide to buy it without an RCD, then you must have all the information required for the RCD before the sale,

so you'll need to know the RCD inside out or employ the assistance of someone who does.

 

 

If the seller is genuine and has just run out of money, then he might help you.

 

But he might not, so you need to make sure you're covered.

 

Thanks for the advice. I take your point, if I employ a surveyor and he helps the guy to

get the rcd together, the guy could pull out on the deal because the boat

is now worth more. A bit of a tricky situation.

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its illegal - similar thing happened to us - we had to wait six weeks for the rcd to be written, because the mortgage lender refused to lend until it had been done. Fortunately the vendor is a clever bloke, had already fitted out to the required standards, had saved every manual and receipt for everything thats on the boat, had photos of the entire fit out and most of the build, so he was able to write an rcd - the British Library, apparently has everything you need to do this, the poor bloke camped there for several weeks in order to write the document and didnt charge us a penny extra. in a nutshell, its possible to write it without employing a surveyor but you really have to know what you are doing. Now I've got it, its quite a straighforward document, just not at all straighforward to write if you've never done one before.

Edited by Lady Muck
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its illegal - similar thing happened to us - we had to wait six weeks for the rcd to be written, because the mortgage lender refused to lend until it had been done. Fortunately the vendor is a clever bloke, had already fitted out to the required standards, had saved every manual and receipt for everything thats on the boat, had photos of the entire fit out and most of the build, so he was able to write an rcd - the British Library, apparently has everything you need to do this, the poor bloke camped there for several weeks in order to write the document and didnt charge us a penny extra. in a nutshell, its possible to write it without employing a surveyor but you really have to know what you are doing. Now I've got it, its quite a straighforward document, just not at all straighforward to write if you've never done one before.

Does this mean that the rcd can be written and approved without the boat being physically inspected, as long as there are photoes and documentation?

Edited by Morphyous
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I am thinking of putting the RCD document together myself for my own boat even though I have no intention of selling it. Does anyone know where a sample document may be downloaded. I know these documents will vary but I will hopefully get the gist of what is required.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited by jeb
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I am looking at a sailaway nb which has been worked on since 2006. The guy is selling and asking for

10% of the work to be completed http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=103780

I think I would be responsible for rcd if I were to buy it uncompleted. I have written to the guy and asked how I could

assemble a manual if I have no knowledge of prior works carried out and the standard of these works.

Advice would be very welcome on whether it would be unwise to consider this purchase.

Edited by sueb
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Surely it is finished enough for the owner to provide the rcd? I don't understand the rcd but I am sure someone else does.

Sue

It has made me dubious because it's so near completion why would he lose out out on £15000, unless his work or something he hasn't done would mean he'd fail to get the rcd.

 

I am thinking of putting the RCD document together myself for my own boat even though I have no intention of selling it. Does anyone know where a sample document may be downloaded. I know these documents will vary but I will hopefully get the gist of what is required.

 

Edited for spelling

The docs can be downloaded here http://www.rcdweb.com/

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Does this mean that the rcd can be written and approved without the boat being physically inspected, as long as there are photoes and documentation?

 

I'm not sure if anyone checked it over or not - I had to send the documentation to the mortgage brokers along with photos of the ce marks etc.....I'd have to look in the file - I'm sure that someone signed it off for the vendor, but I was abroad at the time.

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you don't need an RCD Declaration of Conformity when buying the boat. You do need one if you intend to sell the boat within 5 years of 'being first put on the market' (usually meaning completed and first offered for sale).

 

the seller should provide an RCD DoC or the necessary Annex 3 for a part completed boat (like you should get when you buy a sailaway). If he can't provide one then he is potentially in trouble with Trading Standards; alternatively you should be able to negotiate a cracking discount.

 

preparing an RCD is not just filling in some blanks on a form. You need a certain knowledge of reading and writing technical documents and the ability to calculate trim, stability, etc. If there is no Annex 3 then you need to be able to do the structural calculations using a template. And if the boat doesn't meet the structural requirements (many widebeams probably don't) then the boat doesn't comply. You also need compliance certificates from the engine supplier. You will need to have access to the relevant ISO (BS) standards which is why you have to pay 500quid. They are not cheap.

 

it seems some boatbuilders just cheat and issue an RCD DoC with inadequate technical verification. Nobody will know unless a very competent person decides to check it out.

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you don't need an RCD Declaration of Conformity when buying the boat. You do need one if you intend to sell the boat within 5 years of 'being first put on the market' (usually meaning completed and first offered for sale).

 

the seller should provide an RCD DoC or the necessary Annex 3 for a part completed boat (like you should get when you buy a sailaway). If he can't provide one then he is potentially in trouble with Trading Standards; alternatively you should be able to negotiate a cracking discount.

 

preparing an RCD is not just filling in some blanks on a form. You need a certain knowledge of reading and writing technical documents and the ability to calculate trim, stability, etc. If there is no Annex 3 then you need to be able to do the structural calculations using a template. And if the boat doesn't meet the structural requirements (many widebeams probably don't) then the boat doesn't comply. You also need compliance certificates from the engine supplier. You will need to have access to the relevant ISO (BS) standards which is why you have to pay 500quid. They are not cheap.

 

it seems some boatbuilders just cheat and issue an RCD DoC with inadequate technical verification. Nobody will know unless a very competent person decides to check it out.

 

Ummm I think he does need one - the boat is an owner fitted out sailaway under 5 y.o., which he wants to buy off the person who fitted it out - I guess it has an rcd for the hull only - it'll need a new one to cover the fit out too.....

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you don't need an RCD Declaration of Conformity when buying the boat. You do need one if you intend to sell the boat within 5 years of 'being first put on the market' (usually meaning completed and first offered for sale).

 

the seller should provide an RCD DoC or the necessary Annex 3 for a part completed boat (like you should get when you buy a sailaway). If he can't provide one then he is potentially in trouble with Trading Standards; alternatively you should be able to negotiate a cracking discount.

 

preparing an RCD is not just filling in some blanks on a form. You need a certain knowledge of reading and writing technical documents and the ability to calculate trim, stability, etc. If there is no Annex 3 then you need to be able to do the structural calculations using a template. And if the boat doesn't meet the structural requirements (many widebeams probably don't) then the boat doesn't comply. You also need compliance certificates from the engine supplier. You will need to have access to the relevant ISO (BS) standards which is why you have to pay 500quid. They are not cheap.

 

it seems some boatbuilders just cheat and issue an RCD DoC with inadequate technical verification. Nobody will know unless a very competent person decides to check it out.

The seller a (private builder) is stating that the boat is unfinished and requires 10% more work to complete so in a sense he is putting the onus on the buyer to acquire rcd. A difficult task if the works already done are unknown and not documented. He says he can get a safety certificate for the works done up until now.

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I am looking at a sailaway nb which has been worked on since 2006. The guy is selling and asking for

10% of the work to be completed http://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=103780

I think I would be responsible for rcd if I were to buy it uncompleted. I have written to the guy and asked how I could

assemble a manual if I have no knowledge of prior works carried out and the standard of these works.

Advice would be very welcome on whether it would be unwise to consider this purchase.

 

It could be helpful to read this well sourced advice first before reaching any decision or buying any boat

http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/trading.../canalboat.html and there are further links to more advice here http://www3.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/regula...jectindex-b.htm

 

 

HTH

Rob@BSSOffice

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It could be helpful to read this well sourced advice first before reaching any decision or buying any boat

http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/trading.../canalboat.html and there are further links to more advice here http://www3.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/regula...jectindex-b.htm

 

 

HTH

Rob@BSSOffice

Thanks, that explains it very clearly and I've decided to (excuse the pun) not touch it with a barge pole.

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A few words of caution here-

 

The RCD visually consists of paperwork but that in reality is one of the easy parts, the documentation is purely there to support and "evidence" the work carried out.

 

A very nice living is made in the UK generating this paperwork for both the professional and amateur boatbuilder.

 

Unfortunately this approach is supported by a number of related trade associations of those working in the marine industry. The reality is far from it while correct paper work might be enough to fend off the local Trading Standards officer in the event of a case that is truly investigated or worst case an accident involving the MAIB then the person with their name on the RCD paperwork could find their life style dramatically curtailed.

 

The RCD is a pain in the arse but unfortunately it is law so you abide with it or break it law doesn't have any middle ground. :lol:

Edited by Gary Peacock
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What's the position of the stalled self-fitout sailaways that appear on the market?

 

Is it actually illegal to sell them?

they should have the Annex 3 declaration from the shell builder and the engine conformity documents. Common sense would suggest that the rest is up to the person who completes the boat - in this case the buyer.

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I note from one of the links that Rob posted that:

 

The clock starts ticking from the first time it is used as a recreational craft on the water, not necessarily from when it is fully completed, with all the furniture and carpets.

 

As the owner of a self fitout that first hit the water in October 2006 and was promptly cruised to its normal mooring for fitting out work to start, I wonder when the clock did start ticking. Was it on the day we set out, with just the shell/engine/windows/doors and a false floor (i.e. October 2006) or was it the first time that we took it out overnight (in May 2007)?

 

BTW, the boat is almost done, some 27 months after taking delivery.

 

What's the time on that clock now?

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I note from one of the links that Rob posted that:

 

The clock starts ticking from the first time it is used as a recreational craft on the water, not necessarily from when it is fully completed, with all the furniture and carpets.

 

As the owner of a self fitout that first hit the water in October 2006 and was promptly cruised to its normal mooring for fitting out work to start, I wonder when the clock did start ticking. Was it on the day we set out, with just the shell/engine/windows/doors and a false floor (i.e. October 2006) or was it the first time that we took it out overnight (in May 2007)?

 

BTW, the boat is almost done, some 27 months after taking delivery.

 

What's the time on that clock now?

presumably 27 months, which will be confirmed by the licence, BSS certificate (needed for a boat without an RCD), insurance, etc.

Edited by ChrisPy
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I note from one of the links that Rob posted that:

 

The clock starts ticking from the first time it is used as a recreational craft on the water, not necessarily from when it is fully completed, with all the furniture and carpets.

 

As the owner of a self fitout that first hit the water in October 2006 and was promptly cruised to its normal mooring for fitting out work to start, I wonder when the clock did start ticking. Was it on the day we set out, with just the shell/engine/windows/doors and a false floor (i.e. October 2006) or was it the first time that we took it out overnight (in May 2007)?

 

BTW, the boat is almost done, some 27 months after taking delivery.

 

What's the time on that clock now?

 

 

I wouldn't be too sure about the five year rule the Statutory Instrument is vague about it making it a very grey area, the wording only extends to this exemption-

 

Craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years;

 

There is an argument that the RCD only applies to the first placing on the market and not subsequent times. I don't think TS would agree because if this were the case it would provide a huge opportunity for production built boats to enter the market without conformity.

 

Three years ago the TS officer I spoke to had an interpretation along these lines.

 

That any boat placed on the market must have a Annex IIIa DoC this DoC must include details of all the Essential Requirements the craft is required to conform to at it's present stage of completion. The builder to this point must also hold a technical file and hold it on record. At this point the builder will be legally responsible for the work declared to conform in the Annex IIIa.

 

The end user (customer) purchases the boat based on it being a partly completed boat and that they shall be responsible for completing compliance to any further essential requirements to complete the craft. In doing this at the time of CE marking they become the manufacturer with complete legal responsibility for all declarations of conformity including those contained in the initial Annex IIIa DoC and are required to hold a technical file on record to evidence this.

 

Of course the option exists to use the exclusion quoted above TS took "built for" to be completed but how that was legally defined was only suggested to be used for it's intended purpose the conversation then got a bit silly trying to involve the BSS in this by saying from the date of the first certificate this was down to in reality the best evidence of use for intended purpose is probably the issuing of a navigation license but of course you need a BSS certificate to do this.

 

The BMF's advice is that it is up to the individual to provide proof of completion in some legally acceptable form for example dated photos and details of the craft either witnessed or held by a third party etc.

 

However if the boat was to be placed on the market again outside the five year rule then any further work requiring compliance to the Essential Requirements would yet again need to be documented and a new Annex IIIa produced and a technical file held on record again.

 

If further work carried out did not comply this would need to be rectified or removed.

 

 

This is all very he says she says because of the very low number of prosecutions made in relationship to the RCD, it will probably remain that way until such a time that the powers that be show any real interest.

Edited by Gary Peacock
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I note from one of the links that Rob posted that:

 

The clock starts ticking from the first time it is used as a recreational craft on the water, not necessarily from when it is fully completed, with all the furniture and carpets.

 

As the owner of a self fitout that first hit the water in October 2006 and was promptly cruised to its normal mooring for fitting out work to start, I wonder when the clock did start ticking. Was it on the day we set out, with just the shell/engine/windows/doors and a false floor (i.e. October 2006) or was it the first time that we took it out overnight (in May 2007)?

 

BTW, the boat is almost done, some 27 months after taking delivery.

 

What's the time on that clock now?

 

 

Another point worth noting if you are buying an Annex 3 boat for self fit out is that the Annex 3 declaration is only good for 1 year in terms of getting the boat licensed on BW waters. 12 months after the expiry of the Annex III declaration you must get a BSC even if you've not finished the fit out. If you have finished the fit out hopefully you will have sorted out the Annex 15 fully fitted declaration rcd thingy or a BSC and that will then be valid for 4 years. I've seen a lot of people come a cropper and ending up having big problems because they were unlicensed because they couldn't provide documentation to the navigation authority to prove that their boat was safe to license.

 

HTH

D

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If I wanted a 50ft cruiser I would definately go and have a look at that boat. I'd be able to tell within minutes whether it was any good or a pile of s****, if you can't do that, find someone who could and take them with you. Remember your not really looking for rust or mechanical problems, its only the fit out and paperwork thats the issue.

 

Lets be realistic here, this boat isn't that old and the owner obviously needs to sell it, you could bid him £25K(or less) for that and may well get it. People come on here asking questions about 20 year old boats for not much less than that!! As long as your keeping the boat the RCD paperwork doesn't matter, unless your borrowing the money.

 

Come on people, lets get real here, your bogging yourselves down needlessly,you would pay that much for a sailaway shell these days and thats much more than that.

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If I wanted a 50ft cruiser I would definately go and have a look at that boat. I'd be able to tell within minutes whether it was any good or a pile of s****, if you can't do that, find someone who could and take them with you. Remember your not really looking for rust or mechanical problems, its only the fit out and paperwork thats the issue.

 

Lets be realistic here, this boat isn't that old and the owner obviously needs to sell it, you could bid him £25K(or less) for that and may well get it. People come on here asking questions about 20 year old boats for not much less than that!! As long as your keeping the boat the RCD paperwork doesn't matter, unless your borrowing the money.

 

Come on people, lets get real here, your bogging yourselves down needlessly,you would pay that much for a sailaway shell these days and thats much more than that.

I agree.

I do not recognise that any authority will investigate a buyer who has bought a boat with no RCD. Unless the buyer makes a complaint to Trading Standard the seller will likely get away wit it as well.

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