Battery Condition Monitor

[Roger Gunkel]

I will answer each point in turn...........

 

 

Not even close. The NASA is roughly 20 times more complex to install. Requires more (quantity) and more expesnive tools and equipment to install and is roughly 10 times more complex to set up and still doesn't work as well with regard to state of charge display.

 

 

Gibbo

 

Sorry Gibbo, wouldn't normally disagree with anything you say on electronics, having little knowledge, but my BM1 required 2 spanners, a screwdriver, and a hole through the bulkhead for the cabling, plus about 30 minutes to wire it up and triple check that I had done it correctly including drilling the hole and fixing the cables back. The setting up took me about 10 minutes, with checking every couple of days to readjust, over about a week.

 

I would have said that was about as simple as it gets for that type of monitor. There are four connectors either end of a multi core, plus connecting the earth lead to the shunt and the shunt to the battery. I'm sure the Smartguage is an excellent piece of equipment, but if you can do the installation with less than I used on the BM1 or convince me the whole installation and setup is twenty times easier I would be staggered

 

Regards,

 

Roger

[Gibbo]

Roger...............

 

Sorry Gibbo, wouldn't normally disagree with anything you say on electronics, having little knowledge, but my BM1 required 2 spanners, a screwdriver, and a hole through the bulkhead for the cabling......................

 

How did you break into the battery cables and connect new lugs to them and connect up the battery cables to the shunt? I hope not with the tools above?

 

The setting up took me about 10 minutes.............

 

Try 10 seconds for SmartGauge.

 

with checking every couple of days to readjust, over about a week.

 

Not required with SmartGauge. It does it automatically without the owner even knowing it is happening. That means it gets it right every time and it doesn't have to be continually readjusted as the batteries age and their capacity changes. SmartGauge does this automatically.

 

I would have said that was about as simple as it gets for that type of monitor.

 

I would have said SmartGauge was simpler and quicker

 

There are four connectors either end of a multi core, plus connecting the earth lead to the shunt and the shunt to the battery. I'm sure the Smartguage is an excellent piece of equipment, but if you can do the installation with less than I used on the BM1 or convince me the whole installation and setup is twenty times easier I would be staggered

 

Indeed. 3 light duty (1mm) wires (no heavy duty battery cables to deal with). Until people actually install one they don't realise how simple it really can be.

 

Gibbo

Edited January 5, 2009 by Gibbo

[Roger Gunkel]

Roger...............

 

 

 

How did you break into the battery cables and connect new lugs to them and connect up the battery cables to the shunt? I hope not with the tools above?

No I disconnected the earth strap and connected it to the lug on the shunt with a normal battery clamp sized spanner and connected the strap supplied with the BM1 to the battery with the same spanner.

 

 

Try 10 seconds for SmartGauge.

The longest part of the setup was me reading the manual thoroughly to make sure I understood what I had to do. If I did it again, it would probably take no longer than 10 to 20 seconds to enter the required information

 

Not required with SmartGauge. It does it automatically without the owner even knowing it is happening. That means it gets it right every time and it doesn't have to be continually readjusted as the batteries age and their capacity changes. SmartGauge does this automatically.

Don't disagree with that

 

 

I would have said SmartGauge was simpler and quicker

Thats difficult to say, because if I had bought a Smartguage, I would have still probably taken a similar ammount of time, less fitting the shunt, because I would still have been delving in areas I am not confident in.

 

 

Indeed. 3 light duty (1mm) wires (no heavy duty battery cables to deal with). Until people actually install one they don't realise how simple it really can be.

Ok I concede the BM1 has 4 light guage wires rather than 3 so 25% less! You ca't really count the shunt connection because the Smartguage doesn't have one. I also didn't realise how simple the BM1 could be.

 

Gibbo

 

Please don't think that I am suggesting the Smartguage is in any way an inferior product and I am perfectly aware that those that have bought it have been very satisfied with the performance and backup that you supply. I have used NASA equipment on my seagoing boat for a number of years completely trouble free, liked the appearance of the BM1 for my boat, the price and ease of installation and have been totally satisfied with the results, just as I am sure your customers have been.

 

Regards

Roger

[Gibbo]

Please don't think that I am suggesting the Smartguage is in any way an inferior product and I am perfectly aware that those that have bought it have been very satisfied with the performance and backup that you supply. I have used NASA equipment on my seagoing boat for a number of years completely trouble free, liked the appearance of the BM1 for my boat, the price and ease of installation and have been totally satisfied with the results, just as I am sure your customers have been.

 

Not a problem at all Roger.

 

Amp hours counters and SmartGauge are aimed at completely different people and completely different markets. One type works great for one person, but not for the other.

 

Our device is aimed squarely at people who have experienced the difficulty of installing amp hours counters (a huge number) or those who have experienced difficulties with them simply not working as required such as running out of sync or not dealing with loss of capacity as the batteries age etc (another huge number). We then added some trick functions to convince people. If you are happy with your amp hour counter then of course it is perfectly reasonable for you to recommend it to other people. I would do the same.

 

As someone else said (perhaps you?) it's horses for courses. I have no issue whatsoever with someone recommending a competing product because they are happy with it. Competition keeps us all on our toes and keep prices down. If there was no competition I would be charging 10 times more

 

Happy new year!

 

Gibbo

[Roger Gunkel]

Happy New Year Gibbo :lol:

Roger

[MoominPapa]

Ok, the time has come for me to ' fess up'. Despite trying to fight the fight for the KISS wing of Canalworld, and having lost our spiritual leader to the clutches of Gibbo and his Smartguage clan and with pride coming before a fall I thought that I would test my batteries, you know the ones that I claimed could be charged in an hour. WELL I WAS WRONG, i USUALLY AM ,and my battery banks were both down to 11.69v which Moomin of the parish said is not good. I appears that manual changeover switch has not been working so both the banks were operating as one, no wonder that I could get them to last about 6 or so days!. Much to my embarasment I have plugged into the 240v and set my multistage charger to do its worst,for the first time in nearly 3 years. I shall not however be going over to the other side. My sympathies are very much in line with the thoughts of Alan Fincher and I would rather put the £300 towards my next set of batteries. What is a shunt anyway and what is its function?

 

Good to see that you survived the snow and Alien Landings, Mr Bear.

 

A shunt is a very low value resistor: it often looks like a short length of brass bar or similar and has heavy duty terminals on each end. It's wired in series with a fat cable which carries a heavy current. By the magic of Ohm's law, a (small) voltage it developed across the shunt which is proportional to the current flowing through it and this voltage to taken to an ammeter by a pair of small wires. The ammeter really displays the voltage across the shunt, suitably scaled to read amps. The scaling required depends on the exact resistance of the shunt, which is why the shunt and meter have to be matched.

 

The advantage is that you don't have to extend the fat wires (which should be short) to a location where it's convenient to mount the ammeter.

 

MP.

[alan_fincher]

How did you break into the battery cables and connect new lugs to them and connect up the battery cables to the shunt? I hope not with the tools above?

 

 

No I disconnected the earth strap and connected it to the lug on the shunt with a normal battery clamp sized spanner and connected the strap supplied with the BM1 to the battery with the same spanner.

I don't know why but I found that answer refreshingly amusing !

 

Alan

[PaddingtonBear]

Oh b****r I have just realised that I now nee a bl**dy galvanic isolator. It would have been easier and potentially cheaper for me to have bought a new set of Elecsols. This includes the cost of 240, Smart gauge, what ever it is Roger has got, galvanic isolator and the cost of fitting lots of shunts all over the place - that looks around £600 or so to me. BTW thanks as always for sensible reply MP, perhaps others could take a leaf out of your book, no smart ar*e, clever dick remarks from your direction.

[Justme]

Does the NASA one start the genny / engine for you using a set of variables set by you & then keep it on till a second set of variables is reached?

 

Or could be set to set an alarm / light off to warn you of low batts or that you have actualy charged them enough so can turn the charger off?

 

 

I actualy have a foot in both camps as I have a smartgauge and a shunt type meter (not the nasa one but a 4 shunt variant). Thats gives me the best of both worlds.

 

 

OH & my vote is for the Smartgauge being much easier to fit If you are fitting the shunts in the cable & not mounted on the batt (which is an acceptable way of doing it & had I been just doing one the way I would have done it)

 

 

Justme

[MoominPapa]

Oh b****r I have just realised that I now nee a bl**dy galvanic isolator.

 

If you want one, you can have mine, but I wouldn't bother. I think a GI is advisable if a boat is plugged in all the time, Melaleuca's Hull has the pits to show what can happen if it is, and the GI is wrongly installed so that it provides no protection. For a non-liveaboard boat, which is not left connected when not occupied, I think the safety concerns outweigh the downside of lack of protection.

 

If my existing GI has been an all-singing approved model with fault lights and meters and a big heatsink, I might have re-installed it properly, but the four-diodes-in-a-box that was fitted worried me. I would rather have the peace of mind that comes with a nice solid earth bond, and I don't think that being plugged in for forty days a year will cause much of a corrosion problem.

 

Let the flame-wars begin! That scratching sound you can hear is my asbestos underwear: it's chafing a bit.

 

MP.

Edited January 5, 2009 by MoominPapa

[Roger Gunkel]

Does the NASA one start the genny / engine for you using a set of variables set by you & then keep it on till a second set of variables is reached?

 

Or could be set to set an alarm / light off to warn you of low batts or that you have actualy charged them enough so can turn the charger off?

 

 

I actualy have a foot in both camps as I have a smartgauge and a shunt type meter (not the nasa one but a 4 shunt variant). Thats gives me the best of both worlds.

 

 

OH & my vote is for the Smartgauge being much easier to fit If you are fitting the shunts in the cable & not mounted on the batt (which is an acceptable way of doing it & had I been just doing one the way I would have done it)

 

 

Justme

 

We don't have a genny, but we do have mains hookup, so a startup facility would be pointless for us, as would an alarm, as we have the display where it is always visible, and being permanently onboard are always aware of the general battery charge. We also don't have an electrical system anywhere near the capacity of your own, so overall, the BM1 does exactly what we want, looks the way we want, was easy to set up and cost the amount we wanted to pay. The SG might well be even easier to fit, but 'easy' is still 'easy', whatever degree of easy you wish to define.

 

I am not voting for either, they are different bits of kit, the Smartguage suits you and the NASA BM1 suits us.

 

Roger

[Justme]

I am not voting for either, they are different bits of kit, the Smartguage suits you and the NASA BM1 suits us.

 

Roger

 

Thats not what I said. I have both types cos I need both types. I see the need & use for both. If I was in a diff situation I might use one or the other & not the both I do now. As a % of total electrical install costs proper monitoring is a very small marging (about 5% in my case). I consider that small fry to ensure all is working as it should be. Obviously on smaller installs less monitoring is needed.

 

It would be interesting to put both on a simple installation & to see how each one fairs.

 

Justme

[Roger Gunkel]

Thats not what I said. I have both types cos I need both types. I see the need & use for both. If I was in a diff situation I might use one or the other & not the both I do now. As a % of total electrical install costs proper monitoring is a very small marging (about 5% in my case). I consider that small fry to ensure all is working as it should be. Obviously on smaller installs less monitoring is needed.

 

It would be interesting to put both on a simple installation & to see how each one fairs.

 

Justme

If I had invested to the same level as yourself in sophisticated electrical systems, I may have followed the same monitoring route, but mine is fine for me and at this stage I require nothing more. Did you get your wind genny by the way? I can't remember. Ours has been quiet for a couple of weeks now, a long period with no wind.

 

Roger

[Justme]

If I had invested to the same level as yourself in sophisticated electrical systems, I may have followed the same monitoring route, but mine is fine for me and at this stage I require nothing more. Did you get your wind genny by the way? I can't remember. Ours has been quiet for a couple of weeks now, a long period with no wind.

 

Roger

 

Yes went for a realy small (200watts) one as a tester. When first set up it was wizzing round for weeks. The guage on it was showing LOTS & LOTS of amps. Since fitting the amp/h counter its been stiller than a still thing & only racked up 12amp/h over about a month. Want to get some re al wind soon lol.

 

 

Justme

[Roger Gunkel]

Yes went for a realy small (200watts) one as a tester. When first set up it was wizzing round for weeks. The guage on it was showing LOTS & LOTS of amps. Since fitting the amp/h counter its been stiller than a still thing & only racked up 12amp/h over about a month. Want to get some re al wind soon lol.

 

 

Justme

 

Did you get the small Rutland or did you go for something different? (Sorry folks }

 

Roger

[PaddingtonBear]

Oh double bu**er, now I know why I did not go over to the dark side when I refitted the boat. It is never ending, 240, Smart Gauge, the other thing, shunts, galvanic isolators and now EARTH BONDING, you had better let me know the name of your asbestos tailor MP as I think I might need to pay him a call. When I refitted the boat, I employed an 'electrician' but his work was condemed as dangerous, particularly the bonding of all the negatives to the hull,by a super star boatbuilder in whose yard I was working and a very well known boat safety inspector as well as another boatbuilder who happened to be around. As is fairly obvious I am a know nothing so I have to rely on expert advice. My negatives are still not bonded to the hull and remain fixed together and to the hull with a very substantial insulating block.

Edited January 5, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[chris w]

My negatives are still not bonded to the hull and remain fixed together and to the hull with a very substantial insulating block.

This is great providing you have neither friends nor family that ever visit the boat because it might be the last time you see tham alive should you get an earth fault on your boat. Your boatbuilders and boat inspector do not know what they are talking about when it comes to electrics. Avoid them in future.

 

Chris

[Justme]

Did you get the small Rutland or did you go for something different? (Sorry folks }

 

Roger

 

 

Nah a cheepy ebay jobby.

 

Starts at a low wind speed (3m/sec) & its rated speed is low too (6m/sec). Once i get a good wind I will be ab le to compare to controller amp meter with the shunt meter. In its first week i was seeing far more than its rated watts / amps if the meter is right.

 

Like THIS ONE but from a diff supplier.

 

Justme

Edited January 5, 2009 by Justme

[Gibbo]

Deleted. There's simply no point. Anyone who checks the standards and guidelines will instantly realise that the system must be bonded to the hull.

 

To fail to do so leads one open to prosecution for manslaughter in the even of a fault and someone's death.

 

Gibbo

Edited January 5, 2009 by Gibbo

[PaddingtonBear]

Yes I totally accept that you know all of this, Gibbo, BUT how the hell am I to know as an average know nothing. I employed an electrician who had previously been a lineman for BT after having been let down big time by two other electricians. I was 200 miles from home and as such had no contacts etc. to verify anything. The only thing that I had was the involvement of 2 respected boatbuilders (one of whom is generally in every knowledgeable persons top 5) and a very experienced engineer and BSS examiner. Had it not been for this forum I would n

have been none the wiser but I still don't know what I have to do to remedy the situation. I was in a situation where 3 very experienced people said that the boat is dangerous(with the earths fixed to the hull framing) and before I did anything else I should go to the swindlers and get an isolation block and it is this that is fitted to this day. They world is full of chancers and know nothings and it is impossible in most cases to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[bottle]

PaddingtonBear

 

I think we need to be sure that you are designating the negative/earth's etc.correctly.

 

DC (12volt etc) are positive and negative

 

AC (240v) are live, neutral and earth.

 

The DC negative should be bonded to the hull, all negatives of the boat should be run back DC distribution board and that connected to the hull.

 

The AC earth should also be run back to the AC distribution board and that then should be bonded to the hull.

 

It is advised that the DC and AC bonding are run to different connections, on the hull but adjacent each other.

[chris w]

.......................... I had was the involvement of 2 respected boatbuilders (one of whom is generally in every knowledgeable persons top 5) and a very experienced engineer and BSS examiner.

 

These guys wouldn't be in my (or Gibbo's, if I may be presumptuous) top 500!!!!

 

Chris

[alan_fincher]

These guys wouldn't be in my (or Gibbo's, if I may be presumptuous) top 500!!!!

 

Chris

The problem so often is that one person's recommendation is another person's "don't touch them with a bargepole".

 

Someone on here, well respected, gave me the name of somebody who both does LPG CORGI boat work, and is also a BSS examiner.

 

He was strongly recommended for gas work, having sorted problems that other people had failed to.

 

Then I was given the same name as a BSS examiner to avoid at all cost if you valued your safety, with a statement that he would "pass anything", and there were serious concerns about boats where he had recently done the BSS.

 

Needless to say I did my own gas work, and used a different BSS examiner, but other than trying to clue myself up on things as much as I reasonably can, how do I know the person I'm employing to do a safety inspection is doing a good enough job for me ?

 

I sympathise with PB's predicament, because it's so easy to end up there yourself.

 

Alan

[chris w]

.................... other than trying to clue myself up on things as much as I reasonably can, how do I know the person I'm employing to do a safety inspection is doing a good enough job for me ?

Alan

You can't and that's why so many people get ripped off, get shoddy workmanship or a downright dangerous installation.

 

One of the positive aspects of this forum is that you at least get a debate from which a consensus (usually) emerges and one which has been arrived at after exploring all the angles.

 

A guy in my marina employed a marine "engineer" to do some electrics and the "engineer" used solid copper wire instead of stranded wire (the former being prone to vibration breaking and banned by the BSS). Then he proceeded to disconnect the mains earth on the boat as he was fitting an RCD and told my friend "you don't need the earth anymore"!!!!!

 

My friend and his wife discovered they were now getting electric shocks from an electric guitar and the washing machine. I investigated and was able to rectify the problems.

 

Chris

[MoominPapa]

You can't and that's why so many people get ripped off, get shoddy workmanship or a downright dangerous installation.

 

One of the positive aspects of this forum is that you at least get a debate from which a consensus (usually) emerges and one which has been arrived at after exploring all the angles.

 

 

Agreed. The situation is not confined to boat safety. The classic example, in my experience, is financial advice. If you don't understand investment or borrowing advice, you'd be mad to follow the recommendations of a "personal financial adviser" blindly. In the end you have to make the effort to understand it yourself. Once you've done that, why pay someone to tell you what you already know? I've found that websites like The Motley Fool invaluable in my financial education.

 

MP.