Gravel, and its replacement...

[FORTUNATA]

If the boat is no longer allowing water to seep from outside then, as you say, it's a good idea to get the bilge dried out. In fact, this is what I've been doing on my seventies boat (at least before I got a lot of shifts over Christmas and New Year). I bought one of those barrel hand-pumps from Machine Mart which cost 18 pounds and has two hoses, one for suction and one for outlet. This was a messy job and I started in the battery area of the bilge which is sectioned off from the main engine bilge. After pumping all I could, I used rags and wiped the area down. I found a bit of a dent within where water had been allowed to corrode the surface which would seem to back up my idea bilges on older boats are probably best kept dry. Of course, it may well be the case that water can get in again from somewhere which is why I'm also looking into another back-up bilge pump that doesn't work on the float switch principal.

At any rate, see if you can get the water out whatever way and dried out. Likewise if your boat has an open stern as mine does (I seem to recall it does) then it's worthwhile looking into how you can sheet that area up.

Replate work is kind of expensive but now you've had it done your boat should now be fine for many years to come.

 

For those who have followed the saga, I've been living on a 1970s boat that has just had a base over-plate and a patch to one side. As was the way in those days, the cabin bilge is full of gravel - which is now damp gravel to boot. Its all coming out, I started tonight with one of the easier sections - under the shower tray. My next line of pondering is to wonder what to put in my nice clean empty bilges. Given that that boat appears to be rusting from the inside out, I am inclined to try to do something to reduce the rate of rusting. I won't have access to the whole under floor area, as I'm trying not to wreck the cabin, so anything painted on is out. Two of the more practical things I've considered are spraying in waxol or applying a liberal coating of engine oil. Any ballast that gets put in will be concrete blocks, but I'm not expecting to need much given the amount of plate that has just been welded on the outside. Any suggestions folks?

[John Orentas]

Sorry, but I've seen waterlogged concrete, with the rebar almost entirely rusted away.

 

 

If a few of you are suggesting that paving flags have steel reinforcement them you are sadly mistaken, I don't recognise the word "Rebar".. The concrete that the Romans used 2K years ago is still going strong so the stuff is not exactly transitory..

 

Concrete flags are the ideal things for ballasting boats, that is why the method is universally accepted as standard practise, loose gravel was very much a dirt cheap alternative and I find it hard to believe that any respected builder would have done things that way..

 

I haven't read every word of this topic, but where has all this 'Acid' thing come from, it is not quite the thing to be slopping around with acid inside a steel boat (or any other type of boat).

[estwdjhn]

I'm afraid I have very little data about the boat. The cabin is the original (and in good shape for its age), although the inside has seen several "facelifts" judging by what I've found.

 

She's a 31' cruser stern, and SR2 power. Given the engine is almost certianly the original, can it be dated from the serial number - that could give a "not built before date" if nothing else.

 

At one time she was red and blue - I have one rather poor photo of her in this livery, and sporting front bridge bars. Going off the surounding vehicles in the photo, I would date the picture as early 90's. The photo is in my drawer at work, but I'll try and scan it when I've got five minutes. I've no idea what the original cabin colour was - I could scrape a little paint off somewhere to see, but I don't think its currently chipped, so I'm reluctant to dammage it.

 

 

These photos are when I first encountered her - I looked at buying her some time before I actually did.

I've got more recent photos (she looks rather tidier now), but as is always the way, not on anything I can actually access at the moment. I was given a build date of '79 but the boatyard are convinced it is older.

 

As for the acid - Phosphoric acid is a standard stuff to kill rust with. Someone suggested coating the inside of the cabin bilge with it, as I was after somthing 1) sprayable 2)non flamable and 3) rust killing to put in there before I put the new ballast in. Unless anyone either has a better idea, or can see a major snag, that is my intent once I've shifted all the gravel and dried the space out a bit.

 

For new ballast I've been offered a load of block paving bricks for free. They aren't as heavy as engineering brick, but there is plenty of space under there for them, and the price is right - unless anyone can see some sort of drawback.

 

I've shoved some more gravel out in the snow... it does seem to be a never ending job - the more I shovel, the more I find. I've also found a dead gas pipe, and a dead water feed pipe... more evidence of happy go lucky cabin fitters.

[johnthebridge]

If a few of you are suggesting that paving flags have steel reinforcement them you are sadly mistaken, I don't recognise the word "Rebar".. The concrete that the Romans used 2K years ago is still going strong so the stuff is not exactly transitory..

 

Concrete flags are the ideal things for ballasting boats, that is why the method is universally accepted as standard practise, loose gravel was very much a dirt cheap alternative and I find it hard to believe that any respected builder would have done things that way..

 

I haven't read every word of this topic, but where has all this 'Acid' thing come from, it is not quite the thing to be slopping around with acid inside a steel boat (or any other type of boat).

 

Who, exactly, was suggesting that paving slabs have any form of steel re-inforcing in them? I must have missed that!

"Rebar" is the very common way of describing RE-inforcing BAR, the steel rods in reinforced concrete. And who mentioned "transitory"? All I said is that concrete is NOT waterproof. It has the make-up of a sponge. Personally I prefer alternative forms of ballast in any boat I might own. Do you now want to have an argument about my free choice of that?

So far as phosphoric acid is concerned, again, I have not actually seen anybody mention acid "slopping" around. May I suggest that you read what was actually said, before making any adversarial comments? You admit that you "haven't read every word of this topic". Perhaps it might be better if you had done so.

 

I'm afraid I have very little data about the boat. The cabin is the original (and in good shape for its age), although the inside has seen several "facelifts" judging by what I've found.

 

She's a 31' cruser stern, and SR2 power. Given the engine is almost certianly the original, can it be dated from the serial number - that could give a "not built before date" if nothing else.

 

At one time she was red and blue - I have one rather poor photo of her in this livery, and sporting front bridge bars. Going off the surounding vehicles in the photo, I would date the picture as early 90's. The photo is in my drawer at work, but I'll try and scan it when I've got five minutes. I've no idea what the original cabin colour was - I could scrape a little paint off somewhere to see, but I don't think its currently chipped, so I'm reluctant to dammage it.

 

 

These photos are when I first encountered her - I looked at buying her some time before I actually did.

I've got more recent photos (she looks rather tidier now), but as is always the way, not on anything I can actually access at the moment. I was given a build date of '79 but the boatyard are convinced it is older.

 

As for the acid - Phosphoric acid is a standard stuff to kill rust with. Someone suggested coating the inside of the cabin bilge with it, as I was after somthing 1) sprayable 2)non flamable and 3) rust killing to put in there before I put the new ballast in. Unless anyone either has a better idea, or can see a major snag, that is my intent once I've shifted all the gravel and dried the space out a bit.

 

For new ballast I've been offered a load of block paving bricks for free. They aren't as heavy as engineering brick, but there is plenty of space under there for them, and the price is right - unless anyone can see some sort of drawback.

 

I've shoved some more gravel out in the snow... it does seem to be a never ending job - the more I shovel, the more I find. I've also found a dead gas pipe, and a dead water feed pipe... more evidence of happy go lucky cabin fitters.

 

 

At an initial glance, she looks like one of the RBBs hire-boats. I don't remember any private boats they built that were that length. Their hireboats nearly all had cloud names, like Cumulus, Alto Cirrus etc. Mid '70s?

[estwdjhn]

Thats interesting. The boatyard is of the opinion that she hasn't been a hire boat, on the simple grounds that she is dent free, but they may be mistaken.

 

 

Rugby were advertising a 31' option in 1977, although reading the text of this ad it seems to suggest that boats built by then would probably be steel cabin.

 

I've found a lead to get the phone to talk to the PC, so here are some pictures...

 

On the mooring back in November

 

Just before refloating in the dry dock... doesn't a boat look good with new blacking

 

How to wreck a perfectly good cabin... my home as of today.

Note the floor boards stuck on the roof :-)

 

The boatyard think she wasn't a hire boat, due to a total abcence of bad dents. Were the any particular fittings or fixtures that hire boats got and private boats didn't, or the other way round. The cabin has been hacked about a bit, but there are still some original features in there.

[alan_fincher]

I always particularly liked the Rugby boats back in the 1970s, and always aspired to being able to own one, (some hope, back then !).

 

Yours looks a lovely example, and I much prefer the look to many much more expensive boats. There are a couple round here that have the same purposeful look.

 

I think it will turn into a great boat for you, once you have resolved the outstanding issues.

 

I was never aware of the gravel ballast thing though, until many, many years later. A shame that they did that in otherwise excellent boats.

 

Alan

[estwdjhn]

Kind words Alan, although I'm not sure that many people would aspire to a boat like her now. Still, I'm on track for owning a sound and useable boat for less than £10K so I suppose the current tribulations have there rewards.

[johnthebridge]

Thats interesting. The boatyard is of the opinion that she hasn't been a hire boat, on the simple grounds that she is dent free, but they may be mistaken.

 

 

Rugby were advertising a 31' option in 1977, although reading the text of this ad it seems to suggest that boats built by then would probably be steel cabin.

 

I've found a lead to get the phone to talk to the PC, so here are some pictures...

 

On the mooring back in November

 

Just before refloating in the dry dock... doesn't a boat look good with new blacking

 

How to wreck a perfectly good cabin... my home as of today.

Note the floor boards stuck on the roof :-)

 

The boatyard think she wasn't a hire boat, due to a total abcence of bad dents. Were the any particular fittings or fixtures that hire boats got and private boats didn't, or the other way round. The cabin has been hacked about a bit, but there are still some original features in there.

 

 

Nice to see those brochure pictures again. Bit off topic I know, but the hire boat Alto Cirrus is being steered by John Liley, author, amongst other things, of "Journeys of the Swan", in my opinion the best book on boating with an ex-working narrowboat ever written. Previously he had been editor of the "Motor Boat". He later bought the Dutch Klipper "Seconda"and went on to write other wonderful books about boating in Europe. He used to do the odd boat test for "WW", and in the photo he's passing John Hogarths' Rugby boat at the bottom of Braunston. John was something big in films, at Elstree and Pinewood, and he used to put a colander on his head "for protection" when passing through tunnels. He was known on occasions to say "Ahh beer-- my favourite fruit!"

The other picture was taken inside a private boat that used to tie on the wharf outside. It had a name like "Flower of the East", although I'm not absolutely certain of that.

I can't give you any specifics about RBBs hire boat fit outs I'm afraid. The '77 date for steel cabins would probably make your boat pre that, as they went over to Boughton Fabrications all steel boats about then. I don't think they did anymore composite cabins after that.

Sorry for the ramble, hope you find it useful/interesting.

[estwdjhn]

Has anyone got a list of the hire boats and their fates? Also pictures of them? I wouldn't have thought that they had/built *that* many 2 berth hire boats, so it may be possible to deduce if she was one.

 

Although Alto-Cirrus is very similar in some ways to my boat, there are some differences too - she has very 70's slatted glass windows, while "Bluebell" has more normal ones. Bluebell was probably built with front bridge bars, (which would make sense if she was a hire boat, I suspect hirer's tended to wreck the cabin corners). Alto-Cirrus also seems to have much wider gunnals than mine.

 

My comment about the steel cabins not withsanding, I notice that the 31' boat is discribed new in the 1977 advert. Logically that would make her later - the discription of the 31' boat fits well with what I've got.

If she was an early 31' footer, did they make a few composite ones before switching to steel cabins? If so that would suggest she is early '77.

 

I've found that old photo of her, I'll upload a scan when I get home from work.

[johnthebridge]

Has anyone got a list of the hire boats and their fates? Also pictures of them? I wouldn't have thought that they had/built *that* many 2 berth hire boats, so it may be possible to deduce if she was one.

 

Although Alto-Cirrus is very similar in some ways to my boat, there are some differences too - she has very 70's slatted glass windows, while "Bluebell" has more normal ones. Bluebell was probably built with front bridge bars, (which would make sense if she was a hire boat, I suspect hirer's tended to wreck the cabin corners). Alto-Cirrus also seems to have much wider gunnals than mine.

 

My comment about the steel cabins not withsanding, I notice that the 31' boat is discribed new in the 1977 advert. Logically that would make her later - the discription of the 31' boat fits well with what I've got.

If she was an early 31' footer, did they make a few composite ones before switching to steel cabins? If so that would suggest she is early '77.

 

I've found that old photo of her, I'll upload a scan when I get home from work.

 

 

You're probably right about the numbers built. They did build for other hire fleets of course. I think they did some for Anglo-Welsh, amongst others, and A-W were, I think, the instigators of bridge guards. That's why, if you could ascertain what the original colour is, it would be very helpful.

I think that after 30 plus years, it would be a wise person who could say that your composite cabin has remained untouched. Extra cladding could have been added, reducing the gunwhale width, and those slatted windows were hateful things-they rattled, let the cold and wet in and when open, made gunwhale walking an even more hazardous occupation on a Rugby boat, so they might have been changed. Still, whatever you have got, you'll have a nice little boat when you've done.

Keep going with her, and Happy New Year.

Edited January 2, 2009 by johnthebridge

[estwdjhn]

I went paint scratching this afternoon. The cabin appears to be green - a shade like deep bronze green or racing green. The handrail however has never been green - its red below the blue, and then bare metal. Another little detail that I've found - she was blacked up to the gunwale at one time, possibly when new. Since then she has been overpainted down to the first rubbing strip in blue.

[johnthebridge]

I went paint scratching this afternoon. The cabin appears to be green - a shade like deep bronze green or racing green. The handrail however has never been green - its red below the blue, and then bare metal. Another little detail that I've found - she was blacked up to the gunwale at one time, possibly when new. Since then she has been overpainted down to the first rubbing strip in blue.

 

The green sounds like it could be the RBBs hire boat colour, but I'm intrigued by the handrail being steel. You did say that your boat had a composite cabin? I've never seen this type of cabin fitted with a steel handrail. When they were new, all the RBBs composite cabins that I'm aware of had the cabin roof handrail as per the traditional solid timber one, set on the edge of the roof. You are talking about the handrail on the roof I guess?

Blacking the hull up to the gunwhales' turn was much more the fashion then, and certainly, RBBs used to do that. If you scrape around the (probably) after end of the cabinside, you might uncover the original RBBs hire logo. It was quite a big panel.

The other point you made, which I've overlooked is the Lister. If that's the original engine, checking its' serial number will date it. That could be of help.

Edited January 3, 2009 by johnthebridge

[exboater]

Hi there,

 

Bluebell was a hire boat, operated by Inland Marine Leisure, a hire company based at Anderton Marina (now taken over by ABC of course.)

We hired her back in 1985, and shortly after she was up for sale. I did contemplate buying her, but the cabin construction and the lack of gunnels put me off. She had a blue and red composite cabin which was starting to look a bit shabby in the early 90's. I would estimate the build date as mid seventies.

 

Richard

[estwdjhn]

Hi there,

 

Bluebell was a hire boat, operated by Inland Marine Leisure, a hire company based at Anderton Marina (now taken over by ABC of course.)

We hired her back in 1985, and shortly after she was up for sale. I did contemplate buying her, but the cabin construction and the lack of gunnels put me off. She had a blue and red composite cabin which was starting to look a bit shabby in the early 90's. I would estimate the build date as mid seventies.

 

Richard

Wow thanks for that - it explains a fair bit of her history. I've a picture of her in that Blue and red paint - looking rather tidy. Maybe the picture is older than I thought. Did Inland Marine buy their boats new, or is it possible that she was second hand to them, having been in Rugby's hire fleet.

[johnthebridge]

Wow thanks for that - it explains a fair bit of her history. I've a picture of her in that Blue and red paint - looking rather tidy. Maybe the picture is older than I thought. Did Inland Marine buy their boats new, or is it possible that she was second hand to them, having been in Rugby's hire fleet.

IML took over RBBs, around the early '80s I think.

[estwdjhn]

IML took over RBBs, around the early '80s I think.

Sounds like she was a cloud then - the only question is which one. Does anyone have a list of rugbys fleet with the lenghts and names, as then I could make an inspired guess if nothing else. If I can identify the original name, that will be reunited with her, as I don't really like 'BLUEBELL'.

[estwdjhn]

Sorry to bring this back from the near dead - I've now got some more pictures, to try and get an I.D.

 

This is the old photo I have, showing her in the red and blue - any idea's for date and location.

 

 

This shows a patch of the green on the cabin roof. The item on the left with the norrow scrape in it is the handrail - I wonder if this is a later addition, as it clearly has red paint under the blue, and the red is the bottom coat.

[johnthebridge]

Sorry to bring this back from the near dead - I've now got some more pictures, to try and get an I.D.

 

This is the old photo I have, showing her in the red and blue - any idea's for date and location.

 

 

This shows a patch of the green on the cabin roof. The item on the left with the norrow scrape in it is the handrail - I wonder if this is a later addition, as it clearly has red paint under the blue, and the red is the bottom coat.

I'm as convinced as I could be that that green is RBBs hire boat colour. I'm still not clear about your cabin-it's got steel handrails, on a composite roof, or have I misunderstood what you've said?

If you speak to Robin, at Blue Haven, I believe he's ex-RBBs, in fact I think he served an apprenticeship with them. Sorry, but I can't remember his surname, but he might remember something.

[estwdjhn]

Cabin is composite with oval metal handrails. I wonder if they were added with the now removed bridge bars - maybe while she was at Anderton. I looked at Jim's list of current registered boats for Rugby Boatbuilders, and found she is the only boat listed as 31'. However, the same search does find a few that are 30' so I imagine that they may really be 31'. A couple of clouds still exist with their original names, doubtless several more survive renamed.

[NB Watersnail]

Ok, this has got me really excited! I've got a RBB cloud too!

She's 38', all steel, cruiser stern and shares many features with Bluebell, the stern profile, engine vents and seat are the same. The curve of the bow and odd angle of the increasing gunnels towards the bow is classic RBB.

I know a little more of the histiry of Watersnail as our survey had worked the area for many years. Watersnail, originally Cummulus, was built in 1981 by Colecraft (Rugby) to a design by Rugby Boats for their 'Cloud' fleet of hire boats. She was fitted out by RBB using pine plank effect ply and formica covered ply with a white wood grain effect. I believe she did around 10 years with RBB before going into private hands. She retains her original engine, a Bukh DV20.

Check Bluebells windows for a date on the glass, that's how my surveyor confirmed the build date of ours, a small symbol denoting glass type (I think) with a 2 digit date (81) specifies the year of glass manufacuture.

I have also been told that she has a lovely hull design that should swim really well, and she does (except in reverse).

The picture of Bluebell in red tallies nicely with the original paint colours I found last autumn.

I know of one other Cloud, with a composite top that was owned by a lock keeper on the Thames, haven't seen her for a while.

Here's a recent pic, not the best angle, but you should be able o see the similarities!

Now, anyone else got any Cloud history?

[estwdjhn]

Nice to see hear of another cloud that is still about. I contacted Blue Haven about her, and spoke to a very helpful chap who had worked for Rugby Boat Builders when she was built. I'll post up the email he sent me next time I'm online from a Pc. Sadly, he couldn't manage a positive i.d. for her.

I just looked at the windows, but unless I'm reading wrong they aren't original as they are all dated '84. I wonder if she had the dreaded 70s slatted glass when built - having looked at several windows, all the dates are the same, so clearly someone had cause to replace the lot.

[estwdjhn]

hi john

with regards to boat as far as I can remember we only built

2 boats of this type and these where known as California class boats and named after parts of California.

we then built 3 36ft boats which where called Arizona class

and named accordingly,

boat would have been painted in green with white doors

and handrails which were of a trad style not the type shown fitted now

the front doors were also sliding doors to save room when open

 

the boat in the bottom picture Alto Cirrus was the first hire boat Rugby built in 1973.

 

if I remember anything else I will let you know

 

regards Barry smith

 

I then followed this up with an email asking if he had any idea on the name, and was told:

hi john

name of 1st boat El Dorado this went to boat show can not think of other one at moment

barry

 

So it looks like I've got a 50/50 chance of owning El Dorado. The only boat with that name on Jim's boat listing pages now is a GRP cruser, so I presume that the original El Dorado was renaimed at some point...

 

Any hirer's or boat show goers with comment to make?

[alaninhamble]

If you don't want to use Waxoil (I should have thought blacking would be equally a fire risk), then I'd use phosphoric acid. This is obtainable from any chemical supplier, and is the main constituent in proprietary rust proofers like Fertan etc. It has exactly the same effect as those products, (neutralises the rust, dries out to a hard surface and turns the steel black), and is easier to apply than Waxoil, being very watery, and eminently sprayable. Buying it in bulk is MUCH cheaper than using Fertan, and although it's called acid it's quite safe (although you're advised to wear goggles, gloves etc) , and it's long lasting. I've had it on my skin, and it doesn't seem to do any immediate harm. I've put it on external areas of bare steel, and it lasts a very long time.

I really don't know what else you could use under your particular circumstances.

 

Hi, phosphoric acid is not the main constituent of Fertan. I've the Fertan patent lying on my desk and it is a deal more complicated than that. On a larger scale I'm not sure that selecting components from a product is a great step, it seems like a bit of a step backward.

[BlueStringPudding]

Phosphoric acid?

 

Of course its safe - its one of the ingrediants in Coca Cola!

 

I've got 5 liters of 80% conc in my shed which I use on my cars. Its perfectly safe as long as you wear gloves and safety glasses.

 

It is also a pig for your liver to process even in cola drinks and can apparently lead to ealry signs of liver damage if consumed too regularly (so the tele told me). I'd certainly want to protect skin and eyes if using it industrially.

[Keeping Up]

It is also a pig for your liver to process even in cola drinks and can apparently lead to ealry signs of liver damage if consumed too regularly (so the tele told me). I'd certainly want to protect skin and eyes if using it industrially.

Why would you be using Coca Cola industrially?