mooring on private land

[tugstyle]

Hi All,

 

We are planning to move onto our boat next year and would like to buy some woodland where we will moor the boat.

 

I am really struggling to understand what permission is required to moor on private land.

 

Here is the hypothetical scenario.

 

We are liveaboard and moor on a canal offside, next to a field or woodland which we own.

 

1) Do we require permission from British Waterways?

 

2) Do we require planning permission from the local council?

 

In each case is permission likely to be granted?

 

What about if it was a river rather than a canal. How does that change things?

 

What about if we only spent 6-8 months at the mooring and the rest cruising. Does that change things?

 

Thanks.

Edited November 12, 2008 by tugstyle

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi All,

 

We are planning to move onto our boat next year and would like to buy some woodland where we will moor the boat.

 

I am really struggling to understand what permission is required to moor on private land.

 

Here is the hypothetical scenario.

 

We are liveaboard and moor on a canal offside, next to a field or woodland which we own.

 

1) Do we require permission from British Waterways?

 

2) Do we require planning permission from the local council?

 

In each case is permission likely to be granted?

 

What about if it was a river rather than a canal. How does that change things?

 

What about if we only spent 6-8 months at the mooring and the rest cruising. Does that change things?

 

Thanks.

 

As you said at the beginning of your post, you would be buying some woodland, not water. I believe I am correct in saying thas this means that you would not be mooring on your land, but next to it and would therefore need permission from those responsible for the waterway. A residential mooring would also need permission from the local authority, which is not easy to obtain. New permanent moorings are extremely difficult to get permission to set up, although you may be allowed temporary moorings alongside your land. Those with more experience than I will probably advise you shortly.

 

Good luck,

Roger

[tugstyle]

As you said at the beginning of your post, you would be buying some woodland, not water. I believe I am correct in saying thas this means that you would not be mooring on your land, but next to it and would therefore need permission from those responsible for the waterway. A residential mooring would also need permission from the local authority, which is not easy to obtain. New permanent moorings are extremely difficult to get permission to set up, although you may be allowed temporary moorings alongside your land. Those with more experience than I will probably advise you shortly.

 

Good luck,

Roger

 

Thanks Roger,

 

As I understand it on a canal you do not own the canal bed so have to get BW permission.

 

But on a river you own the river bed up to the half way point.

 

So I will have to get BW permission. Are they likely to refuse?

 

Regarding planning permission for a residential mooring I found this:

 

Houseboats: Planning Permission

Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether the permanent mooring of a houseboat requires planning permission; what permitted development rights exist; and what national planning guidance has been issued by her Department on houseboats or riverside development. [208099]

 

 

3 Jun 2008 : Column 820W

 

Mr. Iain Wright: Houseboats fall outside of planning control unless moored for so long in the same place that they can be regarded as bringing about a material change of use of land. The permanent mooring of a boat for residential purposes where there was not one previously is likely to be a material change of use of land and planning permission would, therefore, generally be required. Similarly, works associated with the mooring of the boat might require planning permission if they amount to operational development. Ultimately, it is for the local planning authority to decide whether planning permission is required.

 

There are no specific permitted development rights for houseboats. No specific national planning policy guidance has been published in respect of houseboats or riverside development.

 

source

 

I wonder how long you have to be moored somewhere for it to be considered 'permanent'.

 

If you owned two pieces of land and spent 6 months on each is either a permanent mooring?

[Roger Gunkel]

You may or may not be right about owning the riverbed for half it's width, but the rights to the navigation of water flowing in it will be controlled by the appropriate water authority, usually BW, EA, Broads Authority etc.

 

If you are intending purchasing two pieces of land and living permanently on your boat on both for 6 months, you may well find that they are both considered to be residential moorings if it can be shown that you bought them specifically to residentially moor on each. It may even be considered that if you do not have permission for a permanent mooring, there may be a requirement to stay no longer than 14 days on either, before moving as with other types of alongside mooring.

 

As I said before, you really need someone with more knowledge than myself to give you accurate advice. The information that you found on line, seems to basically corroborate my feelings.

 

Regards,

Roger

[johnandcharlie]

You're allowed to live on your own land for up to 28 days in a year without planning permission. It's possible to get planning permission to live on land for agricultural and forestry purposes if you can prove that the majority of your income is earned there, and that you have a need to live on site, for example to look after new born livestock, or manage irrigation. In practice it's very difficult to prove a need to live there, and you are normally expected to live in the nearest village (even if you can't afford to), and travel to your land to work. I've never seen anything related to living on a boat, but don't imagine it would be any different.

 

It's well worth reading the DIY Planning Briefings booklet and The Land magazine produced by Chapter 7 (http://www.tlio.org.uk/chapter7/). This is all about land based dwellings, but shows how hard it is to get planning permission. Chapter 7 are the experts in getting planning permission for travellers and low impact smallholders. I don't know if they've ever been involved with what you suggest, but might be a good place to start. It would be worth getting in touch with them, and talking to Simon Fairlie who runs it. He's a very interesting character and very knowledgable, and may be able to help.

[Dr Bradley]

If you own land on the offside of the canal, it would be classed as an end of garden mooring. You need permission from BW and if granted they would charge half the going rate for a similar mooring locally. You would not be limited to 14 days and could moor there permanantly. It would not however be a residential mooring - as others have said this requires planning permission and unless in an area designated under the local plan as residential, is unlikely to be granted.,

[johnandcharlie]

Is it possible to dig out a mooring on your own land, so the boat isn't actually on the canal? How does this affect BW permission and charges?

[Cinimod]

Is it possible to dig out a mooring on your own land, so the boat isn't actually on the canal? How does this affect BW permission and charges?

Regards digging out - I think you need permission from BW if it will connect to the waterway and also you will need to consult with the local environment agency - I believe (but have not checked)

[Roger Gunkel]

Is it possible to dig out a mooring on your own land, so the boat isn't actually on the canal? How does this affect BW permission and charges?

 

This would be considered in the same way as a marina, if the water in your mooring comes from the main river or canal and has access to it, it would require the same permissions for useage. You would also need to get permission for any excavation to be connected to a waterway.

 

Roger

[tugstyle]

You're allowed to live on your own land for up to 28 days in a year without planning permission. It's possible to get planning permission to live on land for agricultural and forestry purposes if you can prove that the majority of your income is earned there, and that you have a need to live on site, for example to look after new born livestock, or manage irrigation. In practice it's very difficult to prove a need to live there, and you are normally expected to live in the nearest village (even if you can't afford to), and travel to your land to work. I've never seen anything related to living on a boat, but don't imagine it would be any different.

 

It's well worth reading the DIY Planning Briefings booklet and The Land magazine produced by Chapter 7 (http://www.tlio.org.uk/chapter7/). This is all about land based dwellings, but shows how hard it is to get planning permission. Chapter 7 are the experts in getting planning permission for travellers and low impact smallholders. I don't know if they've ever been involved with what you suggest, but might be a good place to start. It would be worth getting in touch with them, and talking to Simon Fairlie who runs it. He's a very interesting character and very knowledgable, and may be able to help.

 

We are planning to work the wood for forestry, producing firewood and charcoal as well maintaining the wood.

 

It would make sense to be able to load firewood direct onto canal boats as this is how we plan to deliver.

 

We are also planning to run a Forest School teaching in the woods.

 

One idea we have had, to reduce the impact on the wood, is to have a floating classroom on the canal next to the wood rather than a building within it.

 

The problem is trying to work out the planning implications of this part forestry, part educational, (part mad) venture complicated by the fact we will also be liveaboard!

 

And I am doing this for a simple life

Edited November 13, 2008 by tugstyle

[carlt]

Sounds like a planning nightmare but good luck with it.

 

I help run the Forest School at my son's school and the kids love it and learn loads.

[Machpoint005]

The problem is trying to work out the planning implications of this part forestry, part educational, (part mad) venture complicated by the fact we will also be liveaboard!

Have you spoken to the planners yet? They are potentially the source of a great deal of useful information, and it would help to get them on-side at the earliest possible opportunity.

[grahoom]

We are planning to work the wood for forestry, producing firewood and charcoal as well maintaining the wood.

 

It would make sense to be able to load firewood direct onto canal boats as this is how we plan to deliver.

 

We are also planning to run a Forest School teaching in the woods.

 

where is the location?

[tugstyle]

where is the location?

 

Hi,

 

We don't have one yet. We are currently looking for a suitable site.

 

The trouble is finding canalside woodland.

 

Once we have identified a suitable site we will contact the local planning officer and try and work out what is what.

 

For now we are just trying to figure out if any of this is feasible.

[grahoom]

Hi,

 

We don't have one yet. We are currently looking for a suitable site.

 

The trouble is finding canalside woodland.

 

Once we have identified a suitable site we will contact the local planning officer and try and work out what is what.

 

For now we are just trying to figure out if any of this is feasible.

 

Ah, I am presuming you've looked at this site - http://www.woodlands.co.uk (although prices on there seem to be pretty high).

 

Good luck with it all! be interested to know how it all develops.

[johnandcharlie]

If you're planning to earn your living from the land I would definitely recommend reading the Chapter 7 document I mentioned earlier. I've just had a very quick skim through some of the relevant bits, but it's too complex to get my head round to summarise at the moment.

 

It can be possible to get planning permission for a "caravan, a wooden structure or other temporary structure", the definition of which is "no more than 60 feet long, 20 feet wide and 10 feet high and capable of being towed or carried on two lorries" and has been quite flexibly interpreted. Does that describe anything people on here are familiar with! No idea how much extra complication having to deal with BW or the EA as well the planners would cause!

 

Would you have to moor there all the time, or would you be able to cruise when you're not working? Maybe you'd get away with claiming seasonal use.

[carlt]

Our Forest School uses a 20'x12' tarp held up by two 8' poles, as a shelter, as the principle is that the kids should be out, adequately clothed, in all weathers.

[johnandcharlie]

Ah, I am presuming you've looked at this site - http://www.woodlands.co.uk (although prices on there seem to be pretty high).

I've heard that these people are better http://www.johnclegg.co.uk/

[tugstyle]

Ah, I am presuming you've looked at this site - http://www.woodlands.co.uk (although prices on there seem to be pretty high).

 

Good luck with it all! be interested to know how it all develops.

 

Hi,

 

We are signed up with woodlands.co.uk. Their sites tend to be a bit small and like you say expensive.

 

We are hoping for something bigger maybe 10 - 20 acres.

 

Also john clegg. They seem to a bit more 'forestry' focused.

 

Does anyone know of any other good agents for woodland?

Edited November 13, 2008 by tugstyle

[carlt]

http://www.woods4sale.co.uk/

 

Is one of my favourite tree porn sites.

Edited November 13, 2008 by carlt

[tugstyle]

Our Forest School uses a 20'x12' tarp held up by two 8' poles, as a shelter, as the principle is that the kids should be out, adequately clothed, in all weathers.

 

Sounds great. I went on loads of camping trips as a kid and being out in all weathers taught me a lot.

 

Is your forest school run in a local wood? Are there any facilities (toilets etc.) on site at all?

 

We are still trying to get a feel for what we will need.

[denboy]

was there not a poster/thread a while back about somebody being evicted from moorings who were breeding sheep or goats or such like and were living on a boat? had a search but can not find it maybe the search experts can find it (i am not one )

[carlt]

was there not a poster/thread a while back about somebody being evicted from moorings who were breeding sheep or goats or such like and were living on a boat? had a search but can not find it maybe the search experts can find it (i am not one )

It was the Alpaca lady, iirc.

[johnandcharlie]

Are you aware of the Small Woodland Owners Group? It's run by someone I know of through another forum. Don't know if they could help.

[down the north]

Re 'end of garden ' mooring ,

I was told that it had to be exactly that, an end of garden attached to a residential property,

any one else know anything ??????

martin