BCN boat type ident needed

[Chris Pink]

firstly, sorry about the size of these pictures, didn't want to lose identifying detail so they'll take a time to load.

It is an interesting conversion, rivetted with transom stern, the rivetting inside is very very similar to the original, the only clue that it is a conversion is that the side plate is cut through a rivet hole and the guard iron terminates in a different way. The guard irons at the front end in a rather nicely splayed end.

 

Any ideas on the maker?

 

bows

bows2

transom stern

internal rivetting

 

 

Edit: i've taken the pictures onto links so the topic is faster to load.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Chris Pink

[charles123]

I am far from an expert but this looks like the original boat was a Bantock, the experts will let us know. I dont know who will have done the conversion

 

Charles

[Paul H]

firstly, sorry about the size of these pictures, didn't want to lose identifying detail so they'll take a time to load.

It is an interesting conversion, rivetted with transom stern, the rivetting inside is very very similar to the original, the only clue that it is a conversion is that the side plate is cut through a rivet hole and the guard iron terminates in a different way. The guard irons at the front end in a rather nicely splayed end.

 

Any ideas on the maker?

 

 

Looks like an early Bantock to me. Where are you magnetman?

 

I would guess that the crude motor conversion was done by Harris Brothers at Bumblehole who were still rivetting in the 1960s and also built a few pleasure boats from scratch.

 

Paul H

Edited April 20, 2008 by Paul H

[Chris Pink]

These pictures are going to drive me up the wall, my broadband is quite narrow at the moment.

 

Yes, Bantock was my initial id but were not TS Element's boats similar at the bows?

 

And the conversion is far from crude, the workmanship is practically indistinguishable from the original, the only clues were the cut-through rivet hole and guard iron. It is very difficult to tell but i hazard the conversion earlier than 60s.

[Paul H]

These pictures are going to drive me up the wall, my broadband is quite narrow at the moment.

 

Yes, Bantock was my initial id but were not TS Element's boats similar at the bows?

 

And the conversion is far from crude, the workmanship is practically indistinguishable from the original, the only clues were the cut-through rivet hole and guard iron. It is very difficult to tell but i hazard the conversion earlier than 60s.

 

This is a Bantock with its distictive canoe style bow - to confuse things Elements may indeed have operated some ex-Bantock boats in later years.

 

When I said the conversion was crude I did not mean the workmanship. Harris's built well and substantially but the lines of their boats were all quite basic with a tendancy for swims to be straight and favouring transoms rather than rounded counters. I'd still date it as their work from the 1960s - they were pretty old fashioned and I don't imagine there was the demand for this fairly expensive work until then. It would have been substantially cheaper to cut the middle out of a motor boat and Harris's did plenty of that.

 

Do you know the boat's name? Yates Brothers of Norton Canes Dock had several boats dealt with at Harris's for their small hire fleet around 1960 and it could be one of these although I suppose just as likely to be a private commission.

 

Paul H

[AMModels]

firstly, sorry about the size of these pictures, didn't want to lose identifying detail so they'll take a time to load.

It is an interesting conversion, rivetted with transom stern, the rivetting inside is very very similar to the original, the only clue that it is a conversion is that the side plate is cut through a rivet hole and the guard iron terminates in a different way. The guard irons at the front end in a rather nicely splayed end.

 

Any ideas on the maker?

 

 

Looks like an early Bantock to me. Where are you magnetman?

 

I would guess that the crude motor conversion was done by Harris Brothers at Bumblehole who were still rivetting in the 1960s and also built a few pleasure boats from scratch.

 

Paul H

Agree with everything Paul has said, we owned a mark one with an identical fore end and looking at the footings inside Id say that she was a M1 as well, looks like the wooden bottom was replaced with a rivetted steel one and the side plank was also rivetted but interestingly it looks like it was done to fit in with the above waterline work while the bottom was much more belt n braces with rivets aplenty.

[magnetman]

Its the same bows as my boat, Orianne. Originally called 'Superb' she became part of the Elements fleet, when she was apparently renamed 'Now Eileen', renamed C1962 as 'Orianne'. There's a cut down M1 Bantock called 'Just Maggie II'. Similar name maybe an elements boat too. Whats the pictured boat called?

[Chris Pink]

Thanks for all that, i'll pass it on, it's a friend's boat, he just acquired it.

 

I'll find out the name and where it's just come from.

[alan_fincher]

Blimey ! Deja Vu !

 

I used to own something remarkably like that. Or remarkably like the transom stern anyway. I'm sure mine must have been cut, and given a motor conversion by the same outfit as you are talking about.

 

I hope for your mate's sake he hasn't got the same issue mine had. Mine had been cut ans shortened whilst spread. It measured around 7 foot 1.5 inches across the stern, but unless pulled in with chains, even more than that across the middle, (mine was a nominal 40 feet). Worse a very substantial rubbing strake had been added round the top, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't nearly 7ft 3 inches in places. This didn't stop it managing to go on quite a few narrow canals, but I'm damned certain there would have breen those where it would not.

 

My rivetted stern looked so similar to that pictured, I'm sure it was Harris brothers, particularly as the shorteners were described as "a couple of brothers down an arm in the BCN". Other drawbacks of their conversion was a short swim, with no attempt to curve or shape in any way. They literally cut the sides, and pulled them in to a vee. There was a hard edge where the swim started. The weedhatch was a dog, and the rudder had nothing on it to stop it being pulled around into the prop when in reverse.

 

Mine had originally had a petrol / paraffin engine, but this had been chaged to a Perkins P3 diesel, which, as it had a reduction box, developed far more power than the modest 17" prop could handle. The fuel tanks were lorry tanks that sat badly on the swim, and could start to fall into the bilge if yoy stopped too quickly, (no BSS in those days, thank god!...)

 

I'd just put a new tounged and grooved and masonite cabin on, when the decision was taken to get of the canals.

 

These pictures may be of interest.....

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...bau_Recabin.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...Kerbau_Sold.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...Kerbau_Lift.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...On_The_Road.jpg

 

I would be very interested to have the boat positively identified.

 

We know it was ex Stewarts and Lloyds Tubeworks, Halesowen, and the previous owners believed it to date from 1898. (Many similar boats were still at Halesowen in the early 1970s).

 

I had not at the time heard the name Bantocks, but now think it may have been.

 

A distinguishing feature not that clear in these pictures, are the wide rubbing plates at the bows, perhaps 4" wide, with a raised "bead" down the middle. (It did not have conventional rubbing strakes like the boat pictured here.

 

I'd love to know more of the one your mate has bought.

 

Alan

Edited April 20, 2008 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

This might show the bows of mine a bit better.

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...Kerbau_Bows.jpg

 

It's had half a new cabin built, and is minutes from losing the rest of it's old one, (which didn't have a lot of tumblehome...)

[AMModels]

Alan, I would hazard a guess that your boat WAS done in the same yard as the boat Chris is showing, the shape of the starn and the swim as well do look very similar. The rubbing strakes on your boat are also very well known and I always knew boats with them to be called hot holers because they used to work out of Hickmans in Bilston but it could also have referred to boats from S&L as well.

[Chris Pink]

A distinguishing feature not that clear in these pictures, are the wide rubbing plates at the bows, perhaps 4" wide, with a raised "bead" down the middle. (It did not have conventional rubbing strakes like the boat pictured here.

 

His boat does have, as you say, conventional guard irons on the bows, it is my understanding that Bantocks have the omega section you describe.

 

It does seem like the conversion is Harris, i will check what you say about the rudder, the back counter is very long so the rudder doesn't project past the back of the boat. I'll make some more notes about the conversion.

 

Interestinger and interestinger.

 

The pictures of Kerbau's bows show a couple of significant differences, the iron at the top of the bend, the bend goes inward at a steeper angle and there is more of a 'pinch' in the bows. There is no strake along the top of the sides.

 

 

"Its the same bows as my boat, Orianne."

 

Is that the same features as above, Mr Magnet?

 

btw are the rubbing strakes on a metal boat also called guard irons? or is that just wooden boats?

Edited April 21, 2008 by Chris Pink

[magnetman]

Orianne has the 3" D strakes as the OP pic shows, although the top 'half strake' rivetted above the top main strake has been removed, it is still present in the OP. Orianne's strakes have the splayed ends at the front and back. Its my understanding the 'Mk1' Bantocks had the D strakes and the 'Mk2' had Omega pattern guards. Is there a 3/4" hole in the stem forward of the tee stud?

 

.. A feature i believe is unique to the 'Mk1' Bantock is the stepped knees where there was originally a 'chine plank' in a 'semi composite' construction. There is no actual proof this boat was made by Bantocks and the 'Mk1' is a made up term. It does appear that the earlier boats (1880's) used D section strakes with the splayed ends. Does the tee stud have a rotating collar at its base?

[magnetman]

.. Yarwoods station boats also had 3" D strakes and although they may at first appear similar they are actually very distinctively different to a 'mk1' Bantock particularly the stem which is remarkably narrow at its foremost point, just over 1" on Orianne. I'll try to post pics of her bows later.

[alan_fincher]

If it's not hijacking the thread too much, I'd welcome identification of these two boats at the Black Country Living Museum.

 

If not in exact detail, then in general construction method, plus bow shape, both bear a strong resemblance to my former boat, Kerbau. Both have rubbing plates like mine had.

 

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...s/GWR_Front.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...es/GWR_Rear.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi..._Hill_Front.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfi...s_Hill_Rear.jpg

 

Last time I looked Kerbau still appeared in the Jim Shead list, with a 30Hp engine, so it's just possible still the Perkins P3 it had in my days.

 

If anybody knows where she is now, I'd be very interested.

 

Alan

[Chris Pink]

Orianne has the 3" D strakes as the OP pic shows, although the top 'half strake' rivetted above the top main strake has been removed, it is still present in the OP. Orianne's strakes have the splayed ends at the front and back. Its my understanding the 'Mk1' Bantocks had the D strakes and the 'Mk2' had Omega pattern guards. Is there a 3/4" hole in the stem forward of the tee stud?

 

.. A feature i believe is unique to the 'Mk1' Bantock is the stepped knees where there was originally a 'chine plank' in a 'semi composite' construction. There is no actual proof this boat was made by Bantocks and the 'Mk1' is a made up term. It does appear that the earlier boats (1880's) used D section strakes with the splayed ends. Does the tee stud have a rotating collar at its base?

 

 

A bit previous maybe as I'm about to go and have a look but the bottoms are rivetted plate, but i suppose this is possibly done by Harris' when they did the stern.

 

The pics at the boat museum are examples of the common Bantocks you see around the place, forever 'mk2' in my mind, there's a couple down here, the nicest to my mind being Pathfinder with very sympathetic conversion.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Chris Pink]

More info;

 

The name is March Hare, apparently languished somewhere down the tidal Avon past Bristol for the last 10 (?) years.

 

The stem is 1", starting flat at the top, rounding as it goes down. It does have a 3/4" hole just above the bends on the stem, which would be hidden if the cants were whole. No collar on the T-stud which is tiny.

 

It has a rivetted chine plate, about 10" and rivetted bottoms, all of which look to be the same work as the stern conversion. The original knees have all been removed, they were on 3'3" centres and were rivetted in a diagonal fashion. All in all it had a lot of work at that time; swim, counter conversion, new chine plates, new knees, complete new bottom.

 

What would identify a Yarwood's station boat? This rivetting pattern is the same as a middle Northwich. There are butt straps joining the side plates which is a cut above the average overlapped BCN rivetting. The remaining sides (it's now 50' long) are made from 3 plates.

 

Many thanks to all from my friend who is well pleased with the info so far, especially the pre-1880 estimate of age.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Timleech]

What would identify a Yarwood's station boat? This rivetting pattern is the same as a middle Northwich. There are butt straps joining the side plates which is a cut above the average overlapped BCN rivetting. The remaining sides (it's now 50' long) are made from 3 plates.

 

I've got a Yarwoods station boat on the dock at the moment, I can post a couple of pics tomorrow. Those pics you posted are not one. Much more like Bantock railway boat, but it sounds/looks like an interesting mixture.

 

Tim

[Timleech]

What would identify a Yarwood's station boat? This rivetting pattern is the same as a middle Northwich. There are butt straps joining the side plates which is a cut above the average overlapped BCN rivetting. The remaining sides (it's now 50' long) are made from 3 plates.

 

Here is an LMS/Yarwoods station boat fore-end:-

 

 

The fore-end is quite similar to those composite Bantock railway boats, I'll agree, though perhaps not quite so flat. Maybe actually copied from them, who knows?

General rivetting pattern is wide knees with staggered rivets, and butt straps with one line of rivets only each side.

Stem post is about 1 3/4" wide, with the plating housed into the sides of the post, that's probably the most obvious distinction, plus I think the guards may be a little narrower.

 

Here's the other type of Bantock fore-end, tarted up to look like a long distance boat:-

 

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Well if you had told me back in the 1960s and 1970s that I would have been drooling over BCN day boats, I wouldn't have believed you.

 

But somehow something like that Bantock bow still manges to look the part in a way many £100K+ so called "Josher replicas" do not.

 

From the bit I can see, it's a nice boat, and I'm always envious of those who have them.

 

For the style shown, (with those wide "ribbed" rubbing plates), what's the date range over which they were built, please ? Are these what people are calling a "mark 2" Bantock ?

[Chris Pink]

Here is an LMS/Yarwoods station boat fore-end:-

 

The fore-end is quite similar to those composite Bantock railway boats, I'll agree, though perhaps not quite so flat. Maybe actually copied from them, who knows?

General rivetting pattern is wide knees with staggered rivets, and butt straps with one line of rivets only each side.

Stem post is about 1 3/4" wide, with the plating housed into the sides of the post, that's probably the most obvious distinction, plus I think the guards may be a little narrower.

 

Tim

 

I think I agree that they are very similar but not the same animal.

 

Similarities; length of front deck, knees, butt straps, stem profile (very similar)

differences; stem width (bit over 1"), the upwards 'flare' in the bends before the deck beam and the deck beam itself, no double top guard iron. There is also, on March Hare a rivetted join just forward of the the deck beam on the bends, longer strakes on the one on your dock.

 

but as you say, Tim the inset of the plating is unmistakable, i shall go and check but i don't think it is inset on March Hare.

 

Does anyone know of any references to Bantock the company? (i don't even know if it is company or place).

 

Does the Yarwoods boat (originally) have a wooden chine plank?

[Timleech]

I think I agree that they are very similar but not the same animal.

 

Quite a few years difference in age!

 

Does the Yarwoods boat (originally) have a wooden chine plank?

 

No, all steel from new.

 

Tim

[Priston]

I think I agree that they are very similar but not the same animal.

 

Similarities; length of front deck, knees, butt straps, stem profile (very similar)

differences; stem width (bit over 1"), the upwards 'flare' in the bends before the deck beam and the deck beam itself, no double top guard iron. There is also, on March Hare a rivetted join just forward of the the deck beam on the bends, longer strakes on the one on your dock.

 

but as you say, Tim the inset of the plating is unmistakable, i shall go and check but i don't think it is inset on March Hare.

 

Does anyone know of any references to Bantock the company? (i don't even know if it is company or place).

 

Does the Yarwoods boat (originally) have a wooden chine plank?

 

Just seen the request for info on Bantock.

 

Originator Bantock who was employed by (I think the Dike of Bridgewater) to set up iron making in Bilston Staffordshire. The ironworks was established at Springfields in Bilston (now alongside the BCN) the ironworks was subsiquently owned by Sir Alfred Hickman, then Stewarts and Lloyds then British Steel. Bantock set up a boat dock at Springfields and began manufacturing boats to transport his products. Both Hickmans and S & L continued with boat building and it is not surprising that the largest fleet of Bantocks found their way into the S & L fleet. The later traffic being between Bilston and Coombes Wood. The boat dock was still in existance up to the point at which British Steel closed Bilston works in 1980. The Bantocks were well known in the area one becoming mayor of Wolverhampton. There exists a museum in Wolverhapton in one of the previous homes of the Bantocks, the Bantock museum.