help needed sailaway lined leaking

[dollybassett]

Some advice needed please, bought a sailaway lined from a very well known liverpool company, took delivery only a few months ago.

From the start boat was full of problems from diesel tank leaking into engine bay, had to be fixed 3times, water tank not treated, i now have a water feature in my boat i didn't pay for(7 of the 9 windows are leaking), wood has bulged out in many places, insulation is missing so wood is wet on ceiling, and where bulkheads have been fitted there is no insulation.

There are many more ploblems these are just a selection.

I bought this boat to live on but am unable to do so because it is so wet, am paying £170 per month mooring and licence fees for a boat i cannot use.

Comapany in question keep trying to fob me off - what should i do i'm distraught put my life savings into to this boat and no iam just left in limbo.

 

Any help or advice much needed

 

Thanks in advance.

[Chris J W]

Blimey, what a nightmare. I assume it's all still under warrenty and that you're up-todate with all payments (so they can't use that against you?) and you've a contract to state what should be in by when.

 

I'm sure others will be along with advice on how they've coped with similar, but if nothing else you can always take threaten to them to court for outstanding repairs.

 

Good luck with it.

[Strads]

Some advice needed please, bought a sailaway lined from a very well known liverpool company, took delivery only a few months ago.

From the start boat was full of problems from diesel tank leaking into engine bay, had to be fixed 3times, water tank not treated, i now have a water feature in my boat i didn't pay for(7 of the 9 windows are leaking), wood has bulged out in many places, insulation is missing so wood is wet on ceiling, and where bulkheads have been fitted there is no insulation.

There are many more ploblems these are just a selection.

I bought this boat to live on but am unable to do so because it is so wet, am paying £170 per month mooring and licence fees for a boat i cannot use.

Comapany in question keep trying to fob me off - what should i do i'm distraught put my life savings into to this boat and no iam just left in limbo.

 

Any help or advice much needed

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Dolly

 

 

not an expert, but did you get a contract or "terms and conditions" - if so read them.

 

If there is a process for complaints follow it and keep copies of the correspondence in addition request a response with 7 working days or reasonable time to acknowledge receipt and that they advise when they will respond to the issues.

 

If they fail to respond - write to the managing director directly -stating your strong disatisfaction and request that they take the boat back and make a full refund as the goods are not in merchantable quality - also contact yoru local citizens advise bureau for more expert advise based on your issues & communications todate and their responses.

 

 

Good luck and not the start to the year you wanted I'm sure

 

br john

[dollybassett]

Paid in full when i picked boat up, still under warranty, boat is brand new just 2 months old

[Dylan]

A nightmare indeed. Really sorry to about your problems. My first thoughts are to get a surveyor to quickly give a report, then go for them big time. If you then do not recieve any co-operation, I would be tempted to go down the trading standards route. Also mentioning things like TV's "watchdog" can work wonders; it used to frighten a firm I once worked for nearly to death. I know how you feel because I once got screwed over with an expensive seconhand vehicle, but the trick is to keep at them. DO NOT GIVE IN. You are entitled to have the work done again completely, starting with properly sealed windows, then new insulation and lining, and whatever else is needed.

 

I wish you good luck.

[Yoda]

Sale of goods a act. The boat is not of merchantisable quality. It doesn't do what it says on the tin.

[onthecut]

Sale of goods a act. The boat is not of merchantisable quality. It doesn't do what it says on the tin.

 

Spot on. Give them a written deadline ( a short one) to address the issues and make it clear you will be calling in trading standards and initiating legal proceedings if they don't act. It's only in their interest to prevaricate if it costs them less than making good. Make sure you remind them that in addition to the repairs needed, they will wind up having to pay your costs as well. I'd go and see a solicitor --- if the boat's bad enough you might be able to push them for a complete replacement.

 

Mike.

[blackrose]

One of my neighbours had a couple of similar problems on her new lined sailaway from LB - leaking windows and and an unplugged feed from the diesel tank to a diesel heater (only she didn't order a diesel heater), so when she filled up it went all over the engine room floor.

 

Anyway, she was similarly fobbed off but after some persistance they came down a couple of times and fixed all the problems.

 

Your concerns sound like they have got to the point where some paneling needs to be replaced. If they continue to fob you off I would advise you to visit your local Citizens Advice Beureau with your LB contract. Also take some pictures of the damaged lining if you can and correspond with LB only in writing explaining that you're doing this because they were ignoring your earlier telephone communications. Send any letters by recorded delivery and keep copies of anything you send them.

 

Fortunately I haven't had these problems on my LB but I'm sympathetic to anyone this sort of thing happens to. Good luck with it.

Edited January 21, 2008 by blackrose

[dollybassett]

Thank you for the replies so far i will keep the forum posted on my battles to get my narrowboat sorted

 

Thanks

[Hobbler]

Definitley sounds like the possibility of an "Unfit for Purpose" case . Gather as much evidence of the problems as possible , photographs, receipts for remedial work you have done , expert (preferably qualified boat surveyor) opinion .

 

If they do not respond to your concerns then involve a solicitor , an official letter may be enough without having to go to court ;

 

Deepest sympathy - you do not need this sort of agro starting out on a project of this magnitude .

[Malarky]

Don't know much about law, but I'd aim at getting them to take it back plus refund and compensation, as any boat fitted to such standards is a waste of space. Hopefully, at worst, theyll just take it back and give you your money back, but get rid of it. Don't get fooled into any funny deals.

This could tell you what not to look for next time. You should be able to get a used boat from a sypathetic boater fairly cheep.

[Chris M]

i now have a water feature in my boat i didn't pay for(7 of the 9 windows are leaking),

 

Is the shell painted? If it's only primed I wouldn't expect the windows to be sealed.

[Gordon Chesterman]

I had/have similiar leaks with my two year old sailaway boat from that well known boat company in Liverpool.

Two things to check - my windows leaked when it rained during strong winds - I discovered the water was being blown into the small drain holes at the bottom of each window (there to allow condensed water to dribble out), filling the shallow trough and then spilling over onto the floor. Secondly, the tilting piece of glass at the top of each window has a rubber strip about half an inch too short - more water blowing in. I've fixed all these but now have a very odd leak from the roof, miles away from the ventilators, and showing no signs whatsoever of any hole/paint damage on the roof - very strange? Apart from these problems, I have been happy with my sailaway and any faults have been down to poor design and the cheapest fittings, not poor workmanship. Good luck having your leaks sorted. Gordon

[PaddingtonBear]

Is the shell painted? If it's only primed I wouldn't expect the windows to be sealed.

 

Reject it and ask for your money back AND for all out of pocket expenses, mooring fees etc. Get a proper surveyor to examine it ( the costs to be paid by the 'builder' eventually)The boat is obviously total rubbish (What a surprise)and will NEVER be any good no matter what they did. Would you trust the chancers that built it to put it right? it would always be in the back of your mind whenever it rained etc. It is also very likely that it has started to rust from the inside. These boats are cheap for a reason or several reasons in your case. Please do not hang back or stand any nonsense, and keep good records all that happens. Give them a firm date (14 days)to refund your money plus costs and then commence county court action - it is cheap and easy and can be done on line. County Court Judges are on the whole on the side of the plaintiff- they certainly don't like conmen and flimflam artists. I am extremely sorry that you have got all this agro. Good luck and most of all be strong - you have alot of friends on here I am sure.

[haggis]

II've fixed all these but now have a very odd leak from the roof, miles away from the ventilators, and showing no signs whatsoever of any hole/paint damage on the roof - very strange?

 

Gordon, could your leak be caused by a mushroom vent? I seem to recall that this company has a very odd way of fitting them which means that they are not well sealed and can leak. The water might well travel along the space between the roof and the internal lining and emerge some distance away.

Haggis

[debbifiggy]

A nightmare indeed. Really sorry to about your problems. My first thoughts are to get a surveyor to quickly give a report, then go for them big time. If you then do not recieve any co-operation, I would be tempted to go down the trading standards route. Also mentioning things like TV's "watchdog" can work wonders; it used to frighten a firm I once worked for nearly to death. I know how you feel because I once got screwed over with an expensive seconhand vehicle, but the trick is to keep at them. DO NOT GIVE IN. You are entitled to have the work done again completely, starting with properly sealed windows, then new insulation and lining, and whatever else is needed.

 

I wish you good luck.

Recommend Trading Standards and Citizens Advice. Best of luck and am really sorry you are having such a horrible time. Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction sooner rather than later. D

[turnbuttonboy]

You could always start by sending them a link to this page.

Giles

[blackrose]

Is the shell painted? If it's only primed I wouldn't expect the windows to be sealed.

 

I thought a sailaway, whether primed or painted was supposed to be watertight? They managed to get my neigbour's primed sailaway watertight in the end. Bedding the windows in with a good PU sealant will do it. Ok, I know you're supposed to paint under the frames and all that nonsense, but what's the owner of a primed sailaway supposed to do in the middle of winter?

[blackrose]

Reject it and ask for your money back AND for all out of pocket expenses, mooring fees etc. Get a proper surveyor to examine it ( the costs to be paid by the 'builder' eventually)The boat is obviously total rubbish (What a surprise)and will NEVER be any good no matter what they did. Would you trust the chancers that built it to put it right? it would always be in the back of your mind whenever it rained etc. It is also very likely that it has started to rust from the inside. These boats are cheap for a reason or several reasons in your case. Please do not hang back or stand any nonsense, and keep good records all that happens. Give them a firm date (14 days)to refund your money plus costs and then commence county court action - it is cheap and easy and can be done on line. County Court Judges are on the whole on the side of the plaintiff- they certainly don't like conmen and flimflam artists. I am extremely sorry that you have got all this agro. Good luck and most of all be strong - you have alot of friends on here I am sure.

 

I think some people are only adding to the owner's anxiety. How can you say that a boat is total rubbish and unrectifiable when you (presumably) haven't even looked at it? Plenty of people have problems with boats - yes even new boats - and since LB build more boats than anyone else I think it might be fair to conclude that you will hear more stories of problems with these boats than those of any other builder.

 

I'm very happy with my LB. They are slightly cheaper than comparable boats and yet many of those that are more expensive are not as good. The reason LB are competitive is because they build boats fast, not because they use second rate materials or workmanship. Unfortunately this business model can lead to problems with quality control. However, if you ask a builder of high quality widebeams and a well-known boat painter, both of whom frequent this forum, they actually have some fairly positive things to say about LB. My boat had a few niggles to start with, but I'd like to meet the owner of any new boat who hasn't had a few problems.

 

Lastly, when we're talking about bringing in third parties, the CAB is obviously the first port of call - it's free. Professional surveyors, solicitors, etc, all cost a lot of money and while it's easy enough for us to recommend the services of these people, it's not us who'll be trying to recover those costs from LB when their solicitors turn around and claim that the warranty work was already scheduled, for example.

 

It's natural to feel aggrieved for anyone in this situation, but try to put yourself in her position and don't overreact. I'm sure you mean well, but I'm not sure it helps.

Edited January 22, 2008 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

I agree with Mike. Mr Paddington Bear may be well over the top and his inflammatory comments will not help Dolly if LB ever read them. They will read them, of course, because LB are members of the forum.

 

My scouse boat (unlined sailaway) was also fault-free as far as I can tell. Not in the water yet (actually it was a 'driveaway') but no diesel leaks, and no water leaks once I had sealed the window frames to the shell (because I bought it unpainted, I insisted they were fitted loose).

 

A reasonable shell at a competitive price.

[PaddingtonBear]

I am not being over the top - the faults on this boat are beyond the level of a 'slight weep on the fuel line stage' and given the description of the damage it is likely that the linings etc. are badly damaged. I note Haggis's comment about a known problem - if they can't fit a mushroom vent properly what hope is there? It is all very well several of you taking the view that ' there is always problems with boats' (mainly those it would appear who own "Scouse" boats) and it will all be alright in the end. This was being said by those who have the capacity and the time to rectify the situation, most people don't have that skill nor should they have to do ANYTHING to something costing many thousands of pounds. There is a further problem here - supposing the purchaser did try and repair the damage and it didn't work, could not the builders then wash their hands of the situation blaming the purchaser for any further trouble. I also note that in other areas of trade 'guarantees' etc are mostly for the benefit of the vendor/manufacturer and are not worth the paper they are written on. I write this as someone who is a very skilled 'metal basher' and coded welder (ret.) who was a long standing contractor to English Heritage - perhaps my standards are just too high for the modern world.

[onthecut]

In general I am mystified by the amount of slack some advocate we cut for boatbuilders and fitters. If I go and buy pretty much the cheapest of new cars, I expect it to be as near as damn it perfect, within its design parameters. If I go and buy a tenner's worth of electrical kit from a supermarket, I expect it to be perfect and, if it's not, I take it back and it's changed without question. Why should it be therefore that when I buy a product costing between say, 12 to 150k I am expected to go easy on demanding similar levels of producer care and competence ? Let's be clear, looking at the subject of this thread, we're not talking about simply snagging a fully fitted craft, stuffed with complex systems. We're talking about absolutely basic faults at the first level of assembly.

As it happens, I too have a LB and it has been OK, but watching the course of its construction it very much struck me that everything is done at a rush. I appreciate the company will likely say it's the productivity that keeps them competitive, but that doesn't alter the buyers' consumer rights. It's not our problem how the company arrives at the product and as consumers we shouldn't pass over our rights because of an unspoken trade off over purchase price.

 

Mike.

[blackrose]

I am not being over the top - the faults on this boat are beyond the level of a 'slight weep on the fuel line stage' and given the description of the damage it is likely that the linings etc. are badly damaged. I note Haggis's comment about a known problem - if they can't fit a mushroom vent properly what hope is there? It is all very well several of you taking the view that ' there is always problems with boats' (mainly those it would appear who own "Scouse" boats) and it will all be alright in the end. This was being said by those who have the capacity and the time to rectify the situation, most people don't have that skill nor should they have to do ANYTHING to something costing many thousands of pounds. There is a further problem here - supposing the purchaser did try and repair the damage and it didn't work, could not the builders then wash their hands of the situation blaming the purchaser for any further trouble. I also note that in other areas of trade 'guarantees' etc are mostly for the benefit of the vendor/manufacturer and are not worth the paper they are written on. I write this as someone who is a very skilled 'metal basher' and coded welder (ret.) who was a long standing contractor to English Heritage - perhaps my standards are just too high for the modern world.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the owner attempts to tackle the problems herself!

 

There are obviously some major faults with this boat but it's all within the scope of the warranty. Damaged lining can be replaced, faulty insulation repaired, windows sealed. These sorts of problems are rectified all the time. If however, the owner would like her money back for the boat then she may be quite within her rights to demand it.

 

In general I am mystified by the amount of slack some advocate we cut for boatbuilders and fitters. If I go and buy pretty much the cheapest of new cars, I expect it to be as near as damn it perfect, within its design parameters. If I go and buy a tenner's worth of electrical kit from a supermarket, I expect it to be perfect and, if it's not, I take it back and it's changed without question. Why should it be therefore that when I buy a product costing between say, 12 to 150k I am expected to go easy on demanding similar levels of producer care and competence ? Let's be clear, looking at the subject of this thread, we're not talking about simply snagging a fully fitted craft, stuffed with complex systems. We're talking about absolutely basic faults at the first level of assembly.As it happens, I too have a LB and it has been OK, but watching the course of its construction it very much struck me that everything is done at a rush. I appreciate the company will likely say it's the productivity that keeps them competitive, but that doesn't alter the buyers' consumer rights. It's not our problem how the company arrives at the product and as consumers we shouldn't pass over our rights because of an unspoken trade off over purchase price.Mike.

Agreed. Edited January 22, 2008 by blackrose

[PaddingtonBear]

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the owner attempts to tackle the problems herself!

 

There are obviously some major faults with this boat but it's all within the scope of the warranty. Damaged lining can be replaced, faulty insulation repaired, windows sealed. These sorts of problems are rectified all the time. If however, the owner would like her money back for the boat then she may be quite within her rights to demand it.

 

Agreed.

 

The point here is that whilst it MAY be the case that the 'major faults' are covered by warranty, the builders hitherto have not been forthcoming with any assistance, hoping I expect to win a war of attrition against a desperate customer. (See previous saga of another builder/customer reported by Gary Peacock) In any event, this is not 'rocket science' and having done it hundreds of times before you would have expected them to have got it right by now!! I also note your comment that 'These sorts of problems are rectified all the time' again surely they should have got it right by now. Would you trust them to 'rectify' the faults properly? and if they are that major surely they will seriously affect the future value. In any event it was inferred by your post of 0225 that the purchaser should try to seal the windows in the short term with PU sealant, a material I am sure that all 'Scouse' customers are overly with familiar with.

[BlueStringPudding]

A nightmare indeed. Really sorry to about your problems. My first thoughts are to get a surveyor to quickly give a report, then go for them big time. If you then do not recieve any co-operation, I would be tempted to go down the trading standards route. Also mentioning things like TV's "watchdog" can work wonders; it used to frighten a firm I once worked for nearly to death. I know how you feel because I once got screwed over with an expensive seconhand vehicle, but the trick is to keep at them. DO NOT GIVE IN. You are entitled to have the work done again completely, starting with properly sealed windows, then new insulation and lining, and whatever else is needed.

 

I wish you good luck.

 

I agree with Dylan on this.

 

My advice is to write a letter to them following these guidlelines:

How to Complain Sample Letter

(Might seem obvious but I found it helpful to keep my writing concise when I recently needed to complain to a company and make them resolve their cock ups - which they did sharpish)

 

1) Close the opening paragraph with: "A copy of this letter has been sent to the Executive Director of "Unamed Liverpuddlian Company", to Trading Standards, BBC Watchdog and to my Legal Representative".*

 

2) Then list the faults.

 

3) List the dates and manner in which you've tried to contact them in the past and not received a satisfactory solution.

 

4) List any additional damage caused by water ingress that will have financial implications to put right.

 

5) Then list what you want them to do about each fault. Even if it is only to politely demand and full refund.

 

6) If you do pay a surveyor to view the faults, mention this and enclose a copy of his written report. Name the surveyor so they know he's legitimate.

 

6) Mention that you are paying £170 a month (for X months so far) mooring fees for a mooring you cannot use because of the unhabitable quality of the product they sold you. (My advice is don't, at this stage, demand recompense for that money. It's just good to remind them that there are other financial implications to their negligence. Get them to resolve the problems with the boat first. When you're satisfied they have done their utmost to resolve that, then perhaps talk to the C.A.B. about how to demand some sort of compensation for the unusable mooring, if you're entitled to that).

 

5) Towards the end of the letter explain that you expect acknowledgement of receipt of the letter within one week; and to be contacted with regard to how they intend to resolve your complaints within the next week. (Specify the exact date as deadline for both). Close by informing them that failure to comply with this request within fourteen days will result in your taking further action.

 

Send the letter, dated and signed and include in it every contact detail you can give them (so they have no excuse for not getting hold of you) to your current contact at the company, to the Executive Director (find out his name) at their Head Office and Watchdog by Recorded Post or by Special Delivery and keep your postage receipts so you can track who signed for it and when. (You'd be surprised how seriously they will read it when they have to sign for it).

 

Keep a copy of the letter for your own records.

 

As soon as you've posted the letters, phone them AND e-mail them to let them know that you have written a formal letter of complaint which will be arriving in the next couple of days and that you look forward to their prompt response.

 

From now on make sure you keep a note of every communication you have with them, whether by phone, e-mail or post - as well as the date, time and content of the communication. Just in case they prove to be slackers and you have cause for redress.

 

Good luck with this - in my experience this kind of organised and methodical approach makes companies leap head over heels to get in touch with you and resolve the matter. It's devestating to have your dream destroyed by incompetant, negligent b*stards, but don't let that disappointment cloud your judgement: You have a right to complete resolution of all these faults or a full refund. Your rights are the same as when buying any product that proves to be faulty.

 

Regards,

 

Lisa

 

 

* Remember "Legal Representative" can simply mean the Citzen's Advice Bureau - you don't necessarily have to pay for a solicitor yet - hopefully not at all. The boat building company don't have to know this. The term "Legal Represenative" will scare them enough and it's by no means a fib.

Edited January 22, 2008 by BlueStringPudding