Lister LPW3 water-cooled. Coolant rising 20cm in header tank.

[Walkies10]

I have a lister LPW3 water cooled engine. I noticed that after driving for around 3 hours, my coolant level rises approx 20cm in the header tank. After 3 hours, I should be getting hot water, but it's luke warm. Could there be an air gap being created each time the engine runs? If so, how can the radiator/coolant system be bled? 

Edited March 28 by Walkies10

[Tony Brooks]

Rising coolant in the header tank as the engine warms up and the coolant expands is normal, the rest is not.

 

I assume that your only source of how water is a calorifier - if not, please come back and give more info because valves might be involved.

 

Your talk of bleeding the "radiator/coolant system" suggest that either your boat is not typical or you do not understand how the radiator (central heating) system, hot water, and cooling system interact. Please tell us about any other sources of keeping the boar warm that you have.

 

On the basis of the little you have told us, I would suggest that the engine coil in the calorifier has an air lock and needs bleeding. Trace the pipes between the calorifier and engine, there should be two about 5/8" or so in dimeter. Make sure there are no upward bends in them that can trap air. Then loosen the upper calorifier coli connection and see if any air is vented.

 

Your domestic how water system might have a thermostatic mixing valve in it, usually close to the calorifier, and if this is maladjusted or stuck then that might limit the domestic hot water temperature. After an hour or so running, feel the hoses on the engine calorifier coil, both should feel hot. If they do not perhaps the engine cooling thermostat has jammed open, so what is the engine running temperature.

 

[Hammersmith99]

 

To fix the coolant level rise and lukewarm water in your Lister LPW3 engine, check for air bubbles in the calorifier's pipes, release any trapped air by loosening connections, and make sure the hot water system's mixing valve is working properly.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Hammersmith99 said:

 

To fix the coolant level rise and lukewarm water in your Lister LPW3 engine, check for air bubbles in the calorifier's pipes, release any trapped air by loosening connections, and make sure the hot water system's mixing valve is working properly.

 

I would suggest that the majority of boats (the older ones) do not have thermostatic mixing valves and the reply suggests that a rise in coolant level as the engine warms up is unusual, it is not, but 20cm/4" is a lot. The OP would be well advised to bleed the skin tank as well as checking the pipes for air.

[john.k]

20cm is 8" 

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, john.k said:

20cm is 8" 

Yes, still half asleep.

[Walkies10]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Rising coolant in the header tank as the engine warms up and the coolant expands is normal, the rest is not.

 

I assume that your only source of how water is a calorifier - if not, please come back and give more info because valves might be involved.

 

Your talk of bleeding the "radiator/coolant system" suggest that either your boat is not typical or you do not understand how the radiator (central heating) system, hot water, and cooling system interact. Please tell us about any other sources of keeping the boar warm that you have.

 

On the basis of the little you have told us, I would suggest that the engine coil in the calorifier has an air lock and needs bleeding. Trace the pipes between the calorifier and engine, there should be two about 5/8" or so in dimeter. Make sure there are no upward bends in them that can trap air. Then loosen the upper calorifier coli connection and see if any air is vented.

 

Your domestic how water system might have a thermostatic mixing valve in it, usually close to the calorifier, and if this is maladjusted or stuck then that might limit the domestic hot water temperature. After an hour or so running, feel the hoses on the engine calorifier coil, both should feel hot. If they do not perhaps the engine cooling thermostat has jammed open, so what is the engine running temperature.

 

We have an immersion heater also. This heats the water tank fine after 30 mins. 

[Tracy D'arth]

33 minutes ago, Walkies10 said:

We have an immersion heater also. This heats the water tank fine after 30 mins. 

In the context of the engine cooling system that is irrelevant.

You have an air lock in the pipes from engine to the heating coil inside the calorifier. When this air gets warm it expands, causing the level in your expansion bottle to rise unduly. It also restricts the circulation to  the calorifier hence you only get luke warm water heating.

[Tony Brooks]

35 minutes ago, Walkies10 said:

We have an immersion heater also. This heats the water tank fine after 30 mins. 

 

Well, it should do. Electrical heat direct into the water in the tank.

 

Please address the issue of your mentioning "radiators". It is rarer, but not unknown, for engine heat alone being used to heat radiators. Usually here is another form of boat heating like a stove with back boiler, or a gas/oil boiler. If you have another boiler, there may well be valves so you don't have to have the radiators hot when you are heating water in the summer. The radiators being only just warm might, in that case, be a valve in the wrong position.

 

Bleed the skin tank, bleed the calorifier engine coil circuit as described, topping the header tank u as needed, and then see if it has made any difference. Report back and please try to answer questions.

 

[Walkies10]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well, it should do. Electrical heat direct into the water in the tank.

 

Please address the issue of your mentioning "radiators". It is rarer, but not unknown, for engine heat alone being used to heat radiators. Usually here is another form of boat heating like a stove with back boiler, or a gas/oil boiler. If you have another boiler, there may well be valves so you don't have to have the radiators hot when you are heating water in the summer. The radiators being only just warm might, in that case, be a valve in the wrong position.

 

Bleed the skin tank, bleed the calorifier engine coil circuit as described, topping the header tank u as needed, and then see if it has made any difference. Report back and please try to answer questions.

 

Apologies for the misunderstanding, I thought there was a radiator on the engine. There are no radiators throughout the boat. The engine coils are warm but not hot to touch. Not sure where I should bleed from. Could you point out on the photo where I can release an air lock? Photo of system attached. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Looking at that calorifier installation my first question is has it ever worked? There is a coil unused and unconnected and a connected coil which has its unions at the same level and hence very difficult to bleed air from. Horizontal calorifiers are not as easy to bleed as vertical but when they are fitted incorrectly like this one they become almost impossible.

[Tony Brooks]

58 minutes ago, Walkies10 said:

Apologies for the misunderstanding, I thought there was a radiator on the engine. There are no radiators throughout the boat. The engine coils are warm but not hot to touch. Not sure where I should bleed from. Could you point out on the photo where I can release an air lock? Photo of system attached. 

 

Straight answer, no, not unless I can see where each hose goes to.  The forum has a habit of twisting photos by 90 degrees, so it is hard to know where top and bottom is. As shown on screen, it looks as if your skin tank (what would be a radiator in a car) is horizontal on the bottom of the boat. Unless the large convoluted hoses have a downward run in the skin tank should self bleed.

 

It looks a not typical piece of plumbing. The T fitting with the convoluted hose looks as if it is the return o the engine water pump, so the small hose attached to that T must be the calorifier coil return pipe. This means that other hose of similar size must be the hot water fed from the engine. HOWEVER, There is another blanked off connection with yet another with a hose barb on it. These may e for a second coil that is not used.

 

The way the return hose runs, almost guarantees that air will be trapped in the hose and coil because it runs downhill from the calorifier. The calorifier also looks to be a bit twisted on its mounting. This means that both hoses and the calorifier coil is likely to be full of air. So, loosen the feed fitting and see how much air, if any comes out, but keep the header tank topped up with antifreeze mixture (about 30%).

[Walkies10]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Straight answer, no, not unless I can see where each hose goes to.  The forum has a habit of twisting photos by 90 degrees, so it is hard to know where top and bottom is. As shown on screen, it looks as if your skin tank (what would be a radiator in a car) is horizontal on the bottom of the boat. Unless the large convoluted hoses have a downward run in the skin tank should self bleed.

 

It looks a not typical piece of plumbing. The T fitting with the convoluted hose looks as if it is the return o the engine water pump, so the small hose attached to that T must be the calorifier coil return pipe. This means that other hose of similar size must be the hot water fed from the engine. HOWEVER, There is another blanked off connection with yet another with a hose barb on it. These may e for a second coil that is not used.

 

The way the return hose runs, almost guarantees that air will be trapped in the hose and coil because it runs downhill from the calorifier. The calorifier also looks to be a bit twisted on its mounting. This means that both hoses and the calorifier coil is likely to be full of air. So, loosen the feed fitting and see how much air, if any comes out, but keep the header tank topped up with antifreeze mixture (about 30%).

 

24 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Looking at that calorifier installation my first question is has it ever worked? There is a coil unused and unconnected and a connected coil which has its unions at the same level and hence very difficult to bleed air from. Horizontal calorifiers are not as easy to bleed as vertical but when they are fitted incorrectly like this one they become almost impossible.

It has worked yes. I've attached an annotated image with labels for each tubing. The orientation of the image is correct from bottom to top. 

3 minutes ago, Walkies10 said:

 

It has worked yes. I've attached an annotated image with labels for each tubing. The orientation of the image is correct from bottom to top. 

Seems it has been installed correctly as per surecal manufacturer instructions... 

[Tony Brooks]

In that case, no wonder it is not getting hot. The skin tank seems to be in parallel with the calorifier so is probably short-circuiting the flow.

 

Generally on most engines the engine in normally leaves the engine on the ENGINE side of the thermostat, so with the thermostat closed full flow and pump pressure is applied to the calorifier circuit, this not only ensures flow but also helps drive any air out, back to the header tank.

 

Some of those Listers are a bit different because they need modification with a T piece to get a calorifier take off. Can't remember the details.

Edited March 28 by Tony Brooks

[Walkies10]

23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In that case, no wonder it is not getting hot. The skin tank seems to be in parallel with the calorifier so is probably short-circuiting the flow.

 

Generally on most engines the engine in normally leaves the engine on the ENGINE side of the thermostat, so with the thermostat closed full flow and pump pressure is applied to the calorifier circuit, this not only ensures flow but also helps drive any air out, back to the header tank.

 

Some of those Listers are a bit different because they need modification with a T piece to get a calorifier take off. Can't remember the details.

It has been red hot in the past. Just not now. 

[Tracy D'arth]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In that case, no wonder it is not getting hot. The skin tank seems to be in parallel with the calorifier so is probably short-circuiting the flow.

 

Generally on most engines the engine in normally leaves the engine on the ENGINE side of the thermostat, so with the thermostat closed full flow and pump pressure is applied to the calorifier circuit, this not only ensures flow but also helps drive any air out, back to the header tank.

 

Some of those Listers are a bit different because they need modification with a T piece to get a calorifier take off. Can't remember the details.

The water take offs for the LPW3 and LPW4 are a bit odd, there is a post on here somewhere about how it should be done.

You will have problems bleeding the pipes and keeping them free of air if it is not piped up the right way.

 

Try loosening the hose clamp  with the engine running and pull the hose off the tail a fraction until air comes out. You will have to have someone top up the water  whilst you do it.  You may have to do both hoses.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Walkies10 said:

Seems it has been installed correctly as per surecal manufacturer instructions... 

 

On your installation it appears that cold water goes in at the 'top' and hot comes out at the 'bottom'

 

The catalogue image shows cold feed at the bottom and hot 'take off' at the top (as one would expect).

[Walkies10]

My error. Cold feed is indeed at the bottom.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Walkies10 said:

My error. Cold feed is indeed at the bottom.

 

Are all the other 'labels' correct ?

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The water take offs for the LPW3 and LPW4 are a bit odd, there is a post on here somewhere about how it should be done.

You will have problems bleeding the pipes and keeping them free of air if it is not piped up the right way.

 

Try loosening the hose clamp  with the engine running and pull the hose off the tail a fraction until air comes out. You will have to have someone top up the water  whilst you do it.  You may have to do both hoses.

 

If the OP is correct that the hot take-off is on the skin tank union, then there is a fair bet the "odd" Lister take ff on engine is not there or has been blanked off.

 

Here is another thread discussing it Lister petter lpw3 calorifier fitting:

 

Edited March 28 by Tony Brooks