Timing pointer

[GBW]

(I know, it's taking longer than anticipated!)

Finding myself baffled trying to set the injector pump timing, I found the timing mark on the main pulley lined up with the pointer on the underside of the chain cover a long way adrift.

Perusing the various documents I have to hand, it appears there is a bolt on pointer which lives in a more rreasonable place.

During the closure of my engineering company, it seems to have gone missing.

I have not found it listed on the MG Owners Club site (which is my source for spares).

Any advice please?

Thanks.

[Tony Brooks]

Is this a Russell Newbery engine or, as you talk about MG Owners Club, a BMC.

 

I can't remember another bolt on pointer for 1.5s apart from the one on the injector pump mounting plate. I THINK (not 100% sure) that the 2.2 and thus possibly the 2.5 had one under a cover on the flywheel housing.

 

Remember, the pump drive shaft will turn half the distance that the crankshaft pulley will, so try setting to the timing cover pointer and see where the master spline ends up.

 

I think you may have three pointer, the large TDC one and two smaller ones, but I can't remember how many degrees BTDC they represent.

 

Maybe ask the mods to move this to the BMC forum if that is what this is about.

 

Edited to add. Yes, at least one manual shows a removable degree plate that bolts onto the lower timing cover bolts, but I can't remember such a thing. In the worst case you may have take the flywheel housing off and use the flywheel teeth and a datum to set the engine at the correct point.

Edited March 12 by Tony Brooks

[john.k]

If there is a rubber damper insert in the front pulley,then timing marks can be wrong............some motors may  have marks on the flywheel .

[Tracy D'arth]

5 hours ago, john.k said:

If there is a rubber damper insert in the front pulley,then timing marks can be wrong............some motors may  have marks on the flywheel .

Really?  I have never found that to be so.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Really?  I have never found that to be so.

 

It was a long time ago, but I think I have seen some flywheel marks on the 1.5D to aid timing when rebuilding the engine, but you can't see them unless you take the flywheel housing off, but even if they are not there the Op could get very close to the correct timing by using the flywheel teeth and then fabricate his own timing plate to bolt to the timing cover.

 

If you are talking about the outer pulley "flywheel" slipping on the rubber insert then I have never known them to move because the rubber is bonded to the metal parts, rather than just pushed in like rubber drive bushes on outboard props.

[GBW]

Thanks to all.

Sorry if I have posted in the wrong forum.  All my posts have been about this engine.

On the bottom of the chain cover, there is a rather crude minimal pointer.  Lining the crankshaft pulley indent with this, puts the crankshaft near bottom dead cent.  I have a Wolsley manual with the same engine and that shows a bolt on pointer with two fixing holes to fit over the chain cover.

The flywheel is not yet fitted but the head is off so I guess, if I make a pointer as the drawing I have, I can gauge TDC from the piston movement - half way between when it stops coming up and when it stops going down.

I use the MG Owners Club spares website as they have a large stock of engine parts for the BMC engines fitted to the MGA and MGB.  (They are cheap as well!).

I'll take a photo of the Wolsley drawing and (hopefully) post it here.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Topic moved to the BMC section.

Jen

[GBW]

Thanks.

[Tony Brooks]

31 minutes ago, GBW said:

Thanks to all.

Sorry if I have posted in the wrong forum.  All my posts have been about this engine.

On the bottom of the chain cover, there is a rather crude minimal pointer.  Lining the crankshaft pulley indent with this, puts the crankshaft near bottom dead cent.  I have a Wolsley manual with the same engine and that shows a bolt on pointer with two fixing holes to fit over the chain cover.

The flywheel is not yet fitted but the head is off so I guess, if I make a pointer as the drawing I have, I can gauge TDC from the piston movement - half way between when it stops coming up and when it stops going down.

I use the MG Owners Club spares website as they have a large stock of engine parts for the BMC engines fitted to the MGA and MGB.  (They are cheap as well!).

I'll take a photo of the Wolsley drawing and (hopefully) post it here.

 

1. The crankshaft pulley is keyed onto the crankshaft and the TDC no.1 datum is at the bottom of BMC timing covers, so I don't understand how the pointer can set the engine to BDC unless JohnK is correct and the pulley "flywheel" has moved on the rubber.

 

2. Having found TDC by the method you state, you can make datum on the engine backplate. Then count the flywheel teeth and divide into 360. that will give you the number of degrees per tooth so you can turn the flywheel to the 22 degrees BTDC by reference to the teeth. You could print a degree plate on card and one TDC is found, stick it to the flywheel to set it exactly at 22 BTDC. Clear plastic degree plates are available commercially, but they tend t be rather small for the flywheel. Once you have done that you can make an exact plate to bolt onto the timing cover flange. I know what the plate looks like, but am not clear how you can make an accurate one unless your diagram/photo is to to 1:1 scale.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

PS You can also mount the degree plate on the crankshaft pulley and scribe timing marks direct one a pre-made and fitted plate.

[GBW]

Photos attached.  As you say, there is a timing mark on the chain cover (albeit a crude one) shown in the photo.

The other photo shows a white marker in the pulley groove and the piston is at TDC.

The botl on plate I referred to, is shown if the other photo which is taken from the !.5 manual readily downloadable.

[Tony Brooks]

That looks unlike anything I recall on a BMC and there looks like a dimple in the actual cover at the bottom of the V. Also it looks as if there are signs of welding at the outer ends of the V. I wonder if a mariniser made and fitted it.

[GBW]

I have compared the pulley with others (pictured on ebay) and the keyway and notch are aligned in the same way.

The crankshaft keyway is in line with the big ends which appears correct.

Obviously every other engine is wrong!

In desperation, I am making up a timing plate to bolt onto the cover and will mark it appropriately.

Tony's idea of using the flywheel as a protractor is excellent (and not one I would have thought of).

The mystery remains.  If I find an explanation, I will post it here.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, GBW said:

I have compared the pulley with others (pictured on ebay) and the keyway and notch are aligned in the same way.

The crankshaft keyway is in line with the big ends which appears correct.

Obviously every other engine is wrong!

In desperation, I am making up a timing plate to bolt onto the cover and will mark it appropriately.

Tony's idea of using the flywheel as a protractor is excellent (and not one I would have thought of).

The mystery remains.  If I find an explanation, I will post it here.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

 

For under £10 a plastic degree plate stuck to the pulley would probably be easier and more accurate than using flywheel teeth.

[GBW]

I posed this question on the MG Owners Club forum.

I quote " the timing marks moved from underneath to pointing at the alternator, according to the books, changing in about 1968 with the 18GG engine."

That sounds like a possible solution but it implies that pulleys I found on ebay have the same arrangement.  It woiuld be interesting to discover if there are two varieties of pulley.

I have made a bolt on joggled plate I can mark with TDC and 22° bTDC which should work.

Unfortunately, with the engine on the bench on a support frame, I can't mount the flywheel so the timing will have to wait a bit longer.

Thanks again.

Edited March 17 by GBW
omission

[Tony Brooks]

53 minutes ago, GBW said:

I posed this question on the MG Owners Club forum.

I quote " the timing marks moved from underneath to pointing at the alternator, according to the books, changing in about 1968 with the 18GG engine."

That sounds like a possible solution but it implies that pulleys I found on ebay have the same arrangement.  It woiuld be interesting to discover if there are two varieties of pulley.

I have made a bolt on joggled plate I can mark with TDC and 22° bTDC which should work.

Unfortunately, with the engine on the bench on a support frame, I can't mount the flywheel so the timing will have to wait a bit longer.

Thanks again.

 

As 18GG seems to refer to a 1800cc petrol engine, I don't understand why you are using it to understand a 1500cc diesel engine. If your engine were a 1.8 diesel then there might be a point.

 

I would suggest that as the timing notch was altered so considerably, then there must be two different versions of the pulley. This is why I am uneasy when people talk about buying critical parts from MG sources.

 

I remind you that you can stick a degree plate to the front pulley to set up the timing marks.

[GBW]

The sketch attached is taken from the BMC 1.5 diesel manual and shows a timing pointer, item 78, which looks the part.  https://marinedieselbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/BMC-1.5L-Workshop.pdf page A4.

I will order it and report back.  I have made one but, if the supplied part is already marked in degrees, it will save effort.

Timing pointer .pdf

Edited March 18 by GBW