Do I have to replace all 3 of my leisure batteries

[Theo]

As far as I can see no one has mentioned the possibilty of a slack alternator belt.  Do make sure that it is properly tight (about 1/2" deflection on the longest run of belt.)

 

N

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Theo said:

As far as I can see no one has mentioned the possibilty of a slack alternator belt.  Do make sure that it is properly tight (about 1/2" deflection on the longest run of belt.)

 

N

 

There are all sorts of things this might be, and that is one of them, but unless the OP decides to provide the voltage readings  asked for they are all just guesses and are likely to confuse the OP further. It is interesting that when I have asked for more information about assertions, they never seem to be given. I have asked what made the OP think they had a faulty domestic battery and what the ex engineer did to confirm the alternator was charging. If that ex engineer did a decent test, that that should have ruled out the belt.

[Wiggywormcake]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There are all sorts of things this might be, and that is one of them, but unless the OP decides to provide the voltage readings  asked for they are all just guesses and are likely to confuse the OP further. It is interesting that when I have asked for more information about assertions, they never seem to be given. I have asked what made the OP think they had a faulty domestic battery and what the ex engineer did to confirm the alternator was charging. If that ex engineer did a decent test, that that should have ruled out the belt.

Hi Tony I am confused. I did supply the voltage readings for two nights once the solar panel had effectively stopped inputting power…tonight the Starter battery was 12.6v and the leisure batteries 11.7v yesterdays readings were not too dissimilar. 
 

We had no opportunity to separate the batteries to test them independently today and will post the individual readings as soon as we’ve separated the leisure batteries. The one who will do it was unwell today and he was also the one who was involved in the inspection with the engineer…so I can’t recount the conversation…I do know the engineer has has a boat himself for many years so hopefully he has the knowledge re the alternator.

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Hi Tony I am confused. I did supply the voltage readings for two nights once the solar panel had effectively stopped inputting power…tonight the Starter battery was 12.6v and the leisure batteries 11.7v yesterdays readings were not too dissimilar. 
 

We had no opportunity to separate the batteries to test them independently today and will post the individual readings as soon as we’ve separated the leisure batteries. The one who will do it was unwell today and he was also the one who was involved in the inspection with the engineer…so I can’t recount the conversation…I do know the engineer has has a boat himself for many years so hopefully he has the knowledge re the alternator.

Unless you can get the domestic bank voltage up to say at least 12.5V separating them may not tell you anything because they will all be at the same over discharged voltage. You need a degree of charge in them so you can see which one drops its volatge all on its own.

 

Oh dear. This is, I think, the third time I as for voltage readings from the domestic battery  bank AND the engine battery bank under the following conditions for each.

 

1, Engine off (yes you have supplied this, but they are only a baseline measurement and tell us nothing apart from your domestic batteries are very flat).

 

2. The engine started and revving at about 1200 to 1500 RPM

 

3. If the voltage on both banks, or even just the domestic bank, is higher at 2 then the voltage with the engine revving a couple of hours later.

 

From that we can tell if the alternator is working (but we can't tell it it is fully working), and if the batteries seem to be charging. We can also tell if whatever form of charge splitting your boat is fitted with is working properly.

 

 

If you can take the cell caps off the domestic bank and check them towards the end of the two hours to see is any individual cells are getting hot, bubbling far mote then other or are much dryer. This will give allow us to see how likely your initial diagnosis of a faulty battery is correct. However, you have had the domestic bank so flat for so long chemical changes in the batteries (sulphation) may have taken place so you will never recover the capacity they once had.

 

We need all those stages, readings and observations, not a random selection.

 

Brian asked you how much solar you have, that is the rated output of the panel(s) so we can make a guess at if it is enough or if you need to supplement it by several hours of engine running. If you do not know that then tell us the voltage and current shown on the solar controller at around 1pm BST so we can guestimate the rated output. However, your solar controller might only have lights and if so you can't do this but please tell us.

 

I asked how the ex engineer checked the alternator to say that it was charging. I explained that they will do a degree of charging even though they are faulty.

 

This is the start of the process of diagnosis, other steps are likely to follow.

 

FWIW, the engine battery voltages you did supply suggest that any failure to start probably has nothing to do with the flat domestic bank.

 

 

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks Tony…I have now properly grasped what I have to do…I think will get back with the readings.

Tony

Not started 12.7 on house batteries 12.6 on starter battery

Revved at 1300 House batteries 14.29 Starter battery 14.4

 

The solar panels are 200 each

 

Engine running and will take again in a couple of hours

Hope I am now on the right track? 🤞😀

 

[Tony Brooks]

59 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks Tony…I have now properly grasped what I have to do…I think will get back with the readings.

Tony

Not started 12.7 on house batteries 12.6 on starter battery

Revved at 1300 House batteries 14.29 Starter battery 14.4

 

The solar panels are 200 each

 

Engine running and will take again in a couple of hours

Hope I am now on the right track? 🤞😀

 

 

Thank you.

 

Now we can say that the alternator is charging so now you need to run the engine at 1200 to 1500 rpm for several hours and then reduce the speed a bit. Keep charging for another 8 hours. Keep monitoring the cells in the domestic bank for any individual cells getting hot, bubbling a lot more, or producing a rotten egg smell, than the rest of the cells. With a bit of luck, that will get the domestic bank well charged, so you can then start monitoring the voltage morning and evening with no solar charging. 

 

FWIW 2 x 200 Watt panels have theoretical maximum output of 400W/13V = about 30 amps, that means in the UK about 15 amps maximum at noon GMT. That might average about 7 amps or fewer over 12 hours, which = 84A. The batteries will not convert all that to stored electricity, so lets say 70Ah. As the fridge will use a minimum of perhaps 35Ah per day and, depending upon age and type, could be a lot more, so lets say 45 Ah or more in this hot weather. That only leaves 25 Ah for everything else. This suggests to me that you will need to monitor the batteries' state of charge more accurately and run the engine for several hours two or three times a week.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Wiggywormcake said:

Thanks Tony…I have now properly grasped what I have to do…I think will get back with the readings.

Tony

Not started 12.7 on house batteries 12.6 on starter battery

Revved at 1300 House batteries 14.29 Starter battery 14.4

 

The solar panels are 200 each

 

Engine running and will take again in a couple of hours

Hope I am now on the right track? 🤞😀

 

It will take 8 to 10 hours of engine running to recharge those batteries from where they are now if they are recoverable, not 10 minutes of half an hour.

[Wiggywormcake]

 

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Hi Tony

After 2 hrs Hours and revved

 

House batteries batteries 12.94

 

Starter battery 13.2

 

solar panel is input 13v at end of the test

 

the batteries from start to finish were already topped up (he has always kept them topped up) none boiled, no dry cells or obvious change in water level.

 

Hope this is more useful, thank you and also thank you to everyone else who has spent their time on this 👍

 

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Brian asked you how much solar you have, that is the rated output of the panel(s) so we can make a guess at if it is enough or if you need to supplement it by several hours of engine running. If you do not know that then tell us the voltage and current shown on the solar controller at around 1pm BST so we can guestimate the rated output. However, your solar controller might only have lights and if so you can't do this but please tell us.

 

 

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

It will take 8 to 10 hours of engine running to recharge those batteries from where they are now if they are recoverable, not 10 minutes of half an hour.

Duly noted Brian that was the results of beginning to test as per Tony’s instruction. Thank you 😀

 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Keep charging for another 8 hours.

Thank you…engine back on till 8pm and we will see 🤞🤞🤞

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

the batteries from start to finish were already topped up (he has always kept them topped up)

 

This troubles me a little. Which of the two is it?

 

Have the electrolyte levels in the batteries been steady from start to finish and not needed topping up, or have they been dropping and he has been adding de-ionised water on a regular basis? If so, how much and to all the cells or just one? 

 

Also, what does "from start to finish" mean? Do you mean the whole period you have owned the boat? 

[Tony Brooks]

That makes no sense at all unless you took the first set of running readings and shut the engine down for two hours. I wanted the engine running at a decent charging speed for the two hours and the eight hours longer. (2 + 8 hours = Brian's 10 hours).

 

I also need all readings except the initial engine off ones to be taken with the engine running, not stationary.

 

How the battery voltage can go down after two hors of engine and solar charging is beyond me UNLESS the charge splitting is faulty, but the step 2 readings seemed to indicate it is not OR you have one or more faulty cells, but that would have shown up as excess gassing or individual cells being hotter than the rest.

 

I doubt we can go much further without a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity/relative density of the acid in each cell or an ammeter to measure the alternator output and charging current into the doesti bank.

 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

That makes no sense at all unless you took the first set of running readings and shut the engine down for two hours. I wanted the engine running at a decent charging speed for the two hours and the eight hours longer. (2 + 8 hours = Brian's 10 hours).

 

I also need all readings except the initial engine off ones to be taken with the engine running, not stationary.

 

How the battery voltage can go down after two hors of engine and solar charging is beyond me UNLESS the charge splitting is faulty, but the step 2 readings seemed to indicate it is not OR you have one or more faulty cells, but that would have shown up as excess gassing or individual cells being hotter than the rest.

 

I doubt we can go much further without a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity/relative density of the acid in each cell or an ammeter to measure the alternator output and charging current into the doesti bank.

 

 

 

 

Given we are (fairly) sure the alternator is working, I guess the simplest answer to the OP's question in the thread title would be "yes".

 

I say this as they don't seem to have much of a grip on monitoring batteries or state of charge so the batts are highly likely to be goosed (technical term), regardless.

 

Then once the immediate problem is solved, switch focus to how they should keep them fully charged and monitor SoC so the problem doesn't return in three or six months. 

[Wiggywormcake]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Keep charging for another 8 hours.

Thank you…engine back on till 8pm and we will see 🤞🤞🤞

 

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

That makes no sense at all unless you took the first set of running readings and shut the engine down for two hours. I wanted the engine running at a decent charging speed for the two hours and the eight hours longer. (2 + 8 hours = Brian's 10 hours).

That’s what we are doing there was no two hour gap…a couple of batteries have one cell each that is warm to the touch. No I agree there isn’t much more anyone can do…will keep it running see what happens tomorrow and buy new ones if necessary.

 

if nothing else we’ve learned much and spoken to some v knowledgeable lovely people thank you for all your help Tony & Brian and everyone else that took an interest 🤣

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

a couple of batteries have one cell each that is warm to the touch. No I agree there isn’t much more anyone can do

 

I fear that clinches it, all but certain new batteries required. Good luck with lifting them in and out, they will be heavy.

[Wiggywormcake]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

This troubles me a little. Which of the two is it?

 

Have the electrolyte levels in the batteries been steady from start to finish and not needed topping up, or have they been dropping and he has been adding de-ionised water on a regular basis? If so, how much and to all the cells or just one? 

 

Also, what does "from start to finish" mean? Do you mean the whole period you have owned the boat? 

Hi I meant…we have had the boat since 2016. We don’t live on the boat and it is kept on a private mooring with no facilities I.e. water or electricity. The system has been fine and worked ( with the same batteries) for all that time.

Every visit one of the first things my other half does is to check the batteries and if necessary tops up with the battery water specific to batteries, bought from Halfords or the boatyard shop in Skipton.

 

we haven’t had to do much else as this is the first time this has happened. We have supplemented battery power with solar and if we are here, as it’s generally for a few days/ weeks we’ve done it every other day or if the fridge light has come on.

 

My other half was/ is convinced that the batteries are jiggered but I wanted to check every available avenue before shelling out £6/700 on new batteries..because we’d had the rev counter problem I thought maybe something had drained the batteries.

 

The problems have come on after we returned late from winter …so although all electrics are routinely switched off before leaving I guess the batteries have had enough.

 

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I fear that clinches it, all but certain new batteries required. Good luck with lifting them in and out, they will be heavy.

Thankfully him indoors has muscles…and definitely much more electrical knowledge than I 😀

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, Wiggywormcake said:

My other half was/ is convinced that the batteries are jiggered but I wanted to check every available avenue before shelling out £6/700 on new batteries..because we’d had the rev counter problem I thought maybe something had drained the batteries.

 

There is a definitive test that he can do, but it involves acid that will rot holes in your clothes if you splash it. As he has been regularly topping the batteries up and the fact that you have run for a long time makes it relatively easy. You need a battery hydrometer or a refractometer.

 

Draw a sample of acid from each cell in turn. Look at the colour, they should all be clear. If you find a grey or brown one, then that is another indication of a failed cell.

 

Carefully take the numerical reading and post the list here in one column of 6 numbers for each battery. Put a decimal point between the first and second number on each reading. Compare the readings for each battery.

 

After 8 to 10 hours charging, plus solar, I would expect to see numbers around the 1.280 and 1.300 but the actual number is not so important. You are looking for individual cells that read about 0.025 to 0.030 or more lower than the rest. They will be the bad cells.

 

There is no way we can assure you that there is nothing draining the batteries, especially in view of the wiring we have seen, but at this stage I doubt there is. It was the warm cells and the loss of voltage after two hours of charging that implies it is a battery problem. The inability to start is a separate issue because the start battery is well enough charged.

 

[Wiggywormcake]

Thanks Tony will see if we can get one tomorrow and if nothing else it’s convinced us that the starter battery is ok…as it should be it was replaced tail end of last year. 

 

Will see if the non starting reoccurs and take it from there 👍