vegetable oil for engines

[onthecut]

Hi Pagan Witch

 

If your C3 is an HDi, I'd think twice about using anything other than out of the pump straight diesel, because if it throws a wobbler, the repair cost will dwarf any savings you've made. Incidentally, here in Brum at present we're on 74 - 76p litre for bio.

No doubt if we all get stiffed in due course for full price diesel for boating use, there will be much more debate about the pros and cons of bio in boats !

 

Mike.

[Timleech]

Actually Fenny Stratford, A5 end of Bletchley. If you go to the coop there is a stone in the wall that says something to the effect" The first heavy oil engine was developed on this site in 18** by Ackroyd Stewart"

 

I believe his engine used a hot bulb, like a continuously on glow plug to help ignite the fuel because he had difficulty getting the high compression ratio, but he did use fuel injection, whereas Diesels diesel used some sort of supercharger to blow the fuel in the inlet manifold. So Ackroyds engine was much more like a modern diesel than Diesels.

 

I understand that Diesel was notorious for stealing other peoples ideas and passing them off as his own.

 

Diesel used 'air blast injection' where the fuel injector used a blast of high pressure air to overcome the cylinder pressure and get the fuel into the cylinder, not into the inlet manifold. His patent of 1892 covered injecting fuel into the cylinder at the end of the compression stroke (apparently - I haven't actually read the patent!)

Because the pressures in the Ackroyd engine were lower, it was easier with the technology of the day to arrange solid injection, much like comparing the fuel sprayer system of a Bolinder with that of a true CI engine.

 

Tim

[denboy]

Denis your boat looks interesting do you have any pics anywhere?

 

http://www.belletam.net/family/boats/thomas/thomas.html

some pics of it being built posted by previous owner its changed a bit since

[Supermalc]

Don't take "Lucas pump" too literally, DPA type pump would be better. Don't go there mate, diesel FIE is made with clearances measured in microns and if it can't shift the fuel 'cos it's just a little thicker than it should be metal breaks.

 

Not sure if it's in the links I've re-found, but I've read that because Lucas pumps have a transfer pump with plastic vanes, these tend to fail first, so allowing the plungers at the other end to run dry. Also Bosh pumps reciprocate the plungers as well which is supposed to help.

 

Sorry it's not a very good description, but I'm doing it from memory from looking a few weeks ago.

 

Some Lucas pumps have failed at only 4 miles !!! but hey, what are they doing. Some youngsters with a million mile diesel Metro, or such have thought, great cheap fuel, just mix some cooking oil in. So they're obviously on fumes and stick half a tank of cooking oil in, then fill up. Obviously the veg oil, with no time to mix gets to the pump with the obvious result. Breaks the vanes of the transfer pump, which then caused the plungers to run dry. They'll try mastermind next.

 

I'll post the biodiesel bit as well............................................................................

................

 

To make biodiesel;

 

Equipment- Mixing (shaking!)vessel, a gallon bottle will make 2.5litres biodiesel, 2litre pop bottle will do 1litre, ideal or experimenting. Everything must be dry, no water allowed, messes reaction up. Measuring containers for oil and methanol. Something to mix chemicals in, I use large jam jars. Oil that is liquid at room temp, fat can be used but resultant biodiesel gells at near freezing. Methanol, 99% pure at least. Chemodex in Worksop sells it, on Canal Road.

 

About £1.20 per litre in 25litre barrels. Caustic soda crystals (sodium hydroxide, NaOH), £4.99 from B&Q for 1kg (drain cleaner). Very accurate weighing scales, I use cheap electronic ones from off the net. www.ourweigh.co.uk AXE model, 150g x 0.1g Next 2 only needed if using used oil- Isopropyl alcohol for testing, chemists can get it, must be 100% pure. Phenol red tablets for testing, pool or spa suppliers can supply.

 

Titration, (to find out how much chemical to use if using used oil) How to make solution-5 tablets of phenol red swimming pool test 10 ml isopropyl alcohol (ethyl - rubbing) 10 ml water - distilled and then boiled if of any age Crush tablets and mix with water and iso alc, keep in air tight jar away from sunlight.

 

Titrate against solution 1 gm NaOH in 1000 ml boiled distilled water - essential for accuracy - 10 gms in 100-ml water, then take 1ml of that and add to 99-ml water Titrate - pH 7.5 is indicated when swirled solution stays pink for 20 seconds Take 1 ml oil, add 10ml isopropyl alcohol, add 10 drops indicator. Drop by drop, add titration solution and swirl around watching for colour change. Amount in ml of solution added equals gramms of NaOH to add to methanol per litre of oil. Unused oil needs 3.5g so add 3.5 to the titration answer to get total amount to add. New oil needs 200ml methanol, 3.5g NaOH per litre of oil. Used oil usually needs 5-8g Naoh per litre, get it wrong and the oil turns to jelly! That's why you need to titrate. The chemical reaction does like to be at a temp of about 40C but I have done it at room temp. No higher than 65C the methanol will boil off. Instructions to make biodiesel included in text below.

 

The following is an email I sent to someone a while ago, it is my 'standard' reply to enquiries, I get quite a few!

 

What got me started was wanting to convert my Punto to vege oil. I watched one of the Science Shack programs on BBC, http://db.bbc.co.uk/science/scienceshack/a...runsout02.shtml , and there was a guy, Ian Tansley, who had converted his Merc. I e.mailed him and he told me of vegoil-diesel. This was about 16 months ago for me.

 

Ian's site is www.veg-oil-car.com, I think. There is a forum there as well. Have you seen www.goatindustries.fsnet.co.uk ? There's a forum there as well but not used much. Have you heard of Yahoo groups? If you haven't, you're missing a lot of the web based info that is out there. There's Yahoo groups for EVERYTHING!

 

Whatever your interest, you'll find e.mail based groups at yahoo groups. I'm on vegoil-diesel, biodiesel and biofuel + 20 others for my other interests. You may have to register with Yahoo to create an account and password-takes a few minutes.

 

Once I'd got my system sorted to run the Punto on vegoil, with diesel start-up, I wanted to make bio diesel for the start-up. Just searching 'biodiesel' gave hundreds of sites, http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html being a good one, and http://www.northwales.org.uk/bio-power/, being another useful site. I bought the 'From the fryer to the fuel tank' book, but wasn't impressed with it. There is nothing in there that isn't now on the web. In fact some of the info has been proven to be not true and over complicates some things.

 

Somehow, I came across 'bio diesel gear' and he sells a kit of bits to make test batches (1 litre) of bio diesel. www.biodieselgear.com/equipment/demokits.htm I bought one, it comes with a simple plastic balance scale (accurate to 0.05g), measuring jug for oil, measuring jug for methanol, small funnel and a nice set of printed colour instructions. Costs $19.95+$12 for postage from US. For larger batches the scale is too small so I'm going to get an electronic set. I need some for my koi pond chemicals so it's not too bad. The instructions only show how to make bio from new oil, but it is nice to start with something that gives good results. The instructions say to use 250ml methanol per litre of oil, but 200ml/litre is enough. As for equipment to make bio, the Dr Pepper method, from the Maui biodiesel forum, just uses a 2 litre plastic pop bottle. That's all I've used up to now. I sometimes do 3 or 4 at once. Once I've shook 3 bottles every 15 minutes, my arms feel like lead! I have made a sealed processor, see my website, http://mysite.freeserve.com/simons_photos/ and www.simonwass.fotopic.net, but a bucket and a flat stick has worked, you could use an oil drum with a electrically driven propellor if you have room.

 

I will be able to mix 20 litres of oil+4 litres of methanol in my processor. Have you seen http://www.veggiepower.org.uk ? Lots of useful info. One thing I have found useful is hypodermic syringes, get them from the chemist, £1.70 for a bag of 10. Insulin ones are 1ml. I heated the needle and pulled it out. I'll use the needles for fuel injectors for my mini gas turbine. Shape the now needle-less end with a Stanley knife and you have a sensitive dropper, useful for titration's. I get 42 drops per ml. Go to the chemist and buy isopropyl alcohol, make sure it is 100% pure. De-ionised water for toping up batteries is used to titrate, boil it first and put in jam jar to store. I get it by the gallon from work, it's very pure boiler water. Phenol red tablets give the pH measurement when titrating.

 

I bought from www.poolandspachemicals.co.uk £4 for 50 tablets. Have a go at making some bio from new oil, you know then that there is no water in it, and you will be able to use 3.5g NaOH (caustic soda, or lye as the Americans call it). With new oil you should get a perfect reaction. Do all the following in the garage or shed on a bench covered with newspaper etc. Have a bottle of vinegar with you in case you get any methanol or caustic on your skin, it neutralises the strong alkali. Use marigolds or industrial equivalent and wear goggles and/or a face guard. A respirator is not necessary if you are careful. Get a largish jam jar, I use a 500g Bertolli spaghetti sauce jar but any medium size jar is ok! Pour in 200ml methanol. Weigh out 3.5g NaOH and tip into methanol. It will get hot so be careful! Put lid on and swish round making sure it doesn't pile up causing hot spots. Leave for 10 mins and swish round again, NaOH doesn't like to dissolve in methanol. A quick tip, practice weighing out say salt, until you get the knack of using your scales. When measuring out NaOH, you have to be quick because as soon as the top is removed, it starts to absorb moisture and CO2 from the air. This could make a batch fail.Eventually it will all dissolve to form a very lightly cloudy methoxide (methanol and sodium hydroxide).

 

Warm 1 litre of oil in the 2 litre bottle, just over hand warm is ok, and using a funnel, pour the methoxide into the oil. Put lid on jam jar as fumes are dangerous, put lid on mixing bottle and shake like a mad man. 40 shakes are recommended, the more violent the better. The oil will go milky. Leave for 15 mins and shake again. By now the oil should be visibly thinner. Shake another 2 times and then sit and watch it, within a few minutes the top of the oil will start to go clear and after about 10 mins you will see the glycerol dropping to the bottom of the bottle. If you want, you can tip the bottle up a few times to mix the glycerol back in again as the excess methanol is in the glycerol, so you could get a better reaction by stirring it up. Leave overnight for glycerine to all settle out and carefully syphon biodiesel from top. That's all there is to it!, though used oil is different, a titration is needed to work out how much more NaOH is needed.

 

For home used chip pan oil, I use 5g per litre of oil. I did use 8g as my titration told me, but it went to jelly, almost making soap, so I need to practice my titration's. What has your oil been used for? If there is any meat fat in it, you 'could' have some problems. At first, I took all the work canteen oil until I found there was a fryer just used for chips, so I only take that oil. The other fryer is used for meat and fish so is solid at room temp. The manager makes sure the oil goes into separate barrels for me. You may wish to try the concentrated aqueous caustic method, I use it now.

 

You dissolve the NaOH in pure water, 3.5ml for 3.5g. Do this in small jars and put in bowl of water as it generates loads of heat, it can boil if you put all the NaOH in at once. The NaOH dissolves much better and you then pour this into the methanol, give it a quick swish round and pour into the oil. Saves loads of time. You can even mix up a kg at a time and just measure out what you need, but you need to measure verything carefully. If you mix 1g NaOH into 1ml water you get about 1.2ml solution, so if you need 5g dry NaOH you have to use 6ml solution. I just mix what I need, it still saves time.

 

Running on biodiesel will require no modifications to your engine, but watch > your fuel hoses, if you have replaced them all, you should be ok. They must > be viton (my punto hoses have some initials on, I'll check and let you know what to look for), normal rubber is dissolved by biodiesel! The only thing to worry about is the internal seals in the injection pump, to make a proper job with the biodiesel, you could wash it, but it is a lot of faffing about, try checking the "journey to forever" website its the biodiesel gospel. If you mix with normal red diesel say 50/50 it will help prevent any abnormal stuff going on inside your engine, you'll still have the nice smell though, and the engine will probably be quieter, my punto is! Sounds smoother, less rattly. Simon

 

ps, watch your filters when you first start using biodiesel, it loosens any muck in the tank and lines, so clogs filters quicker than normal until it has cleaned everything off. http://homepage.mac.com/neobio/PhotoAlbum40.html try this site to see how clean it makes your engine, this was with neat oil though.

[Supermalc]

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

 

This seems the most useful read that I've found so far.

[Tony Brooks]

Run my Citroen C3 1.6 turbo diesel on bio fuel that I KNOW is recycled cooking oil 'cos I've seen it delivered. COuncil approved filling station on a local industrial unti - even ahs a phot of the council filling up there for the 'We are going green' publicity. Currently 85p litre inc VAT - receipt provided.

 

Citroen say it runs it fine - which in my experience it does but VW Golf have a thingy on the filler cap saying don't use it.

 

Not sure what they do to the stuff I use but no chip fat smell at all - in fact it smells a damn sight better than normal diesel exhaust.

 

All of that said now it is getting colder I shall be using a mix to ensure no cold temperature problems.

 

Don't fancy using it in the boat as I'm totaly certain the Eberspacher would really throw a fit.

 

 

I very much doubt that the fuel you buy is simple recycled cooking oil. If it was you would have had cold start problems by now.

 

Bio-diesel, as in common use, covers a multitude of fuels from ordinary vegetable oil straight from the supermarket shelves, through filtered used vegetable oil with, or without additives, vegetable oil (new or used) that has been through a production process called transesterfication that makes it comply with EN 14214. This fuel; is what I think you are buying and it is very close to diesel (EN 590) and gas oil in its major specification.

 

The fuel has a couple of drawbacks in that it tends to loosen "crud" from the tank and pipes , so be ready to change the filters a few times, and it is hygroscopic so absorbs more water than "diesel". The blow by past the pistons may also do horrible things to the lube oil but in inland marine use I feel that in a serviceable engine our frequent oil change intervals will mitigate that problem.

 

As far as I can see I will be experimenting with EN1424 biodiesel in the Bukh when I can get some I trust meets the standard but for now only during the summer months.

 

If you have any engine (like the BMC 1.5/1.8) that uses a DPA or DPB type injector pump please do not use ordinary veg oil. There are reports that it is too viscous to properly lubricate the rotor (there are ways round it at a cost).

 

Bosch rotary pumps and the old fashioned inline/individual pumps appear to be more tolerant of untreated veg oil, but I would not use it until far more is known about it.

 

The four major injection equipment suppliers are still saying that their equipment is only suitable for fuel that meets EN590, so in theory we should not even be using gas oil, yet certain VW marques accept 100% EN14214 use. The long term effects are not clear at the moment so I advocate only using the EN14214 fuel until the situation becomes clearer.

 

 

I suspect the Eberspacher would be happier on EN14214 than gasoil, certainly a boater who is trying to promote EN14214 fuel on the waterways has run one for a year without problems and he chose that make because of its reputation.

[Supermalc]

Thanks Tony - good to have a few proper facts to read.

 

So it seems if you have a 200quid car, 205 puggy etc. and just put SVO in the tank with diesel, you'll be fine. If it shortens the engine life a bit, it shouldn't matter. And until the chancellor makes you pay tax on small quantities, you should come out in pocket.

 

Same applies to boats. If you have an older engine without a DPA pump it should pay to run some veg oil in the tank mixed with diesel.

[Proper Job]

I suppose it helped having the same name as the fuel the engine used.

 

The fuel was named after the engines that it powered, which was named after the person who (allegedly milord) invented the engine.

 

Basically, any engine that ran on the compression ignition cycle, which usually used 35 sec grade fuel (or there abouts) was a 'diesel'.

 

A bit like a Hoover. The boss has an Electrolux. I call it a Hoover. Really its a vacuum or suction cleaner.

 

Regarding fuel pumps. Most modern fuel pumps work on very tight clearances (metal to metal faces - usually chrome). They rely on the fuel to lubricate them. A diesel molecule is a lot smaller than a vegetable oil molecule and therefore fits in the minimal clearance. If you use VO on this type of pump the VO molecule cannot fit in the gap, the plungers/vanes etc are not lubricated and they fail.

 

The busses around us VO. Sit behind one in a traffic jam. The smell! My old Ailsa Craig RFR4 could run on VO but I don’t think I could stand the smell, especially with it exhausting out of the roof.

 

By the way - put a bottle of VO in some iced water and see how well it comes out after a hours or so. Thats what would happen to it in your tank/fuel lines and injectors unless you mix it with something else (see above)

Edited November 8, 2007 by I want a 'proper job'

[Timleech]

The fuel was named after the engines that it powered, which was named after the person who (allegedly milord) invented the engine.

 

Basically, any engine that ran on the compression ignition cycle, which usually used 35 sec grade fuel (or there abouts) was a 'diesel'.

 

 

Ships diesels often run on much heavier oil, which has to be preheated.

 

If you want to see an engine which is pretty much as Dr Diesel intended, go to the Internal Fire museum just north of Cardigan and see the 1912 -ish 25 hp Sulzer.

 

http://www.internalfire.com/modules.php?na...age&pid=138

 

The website is well out of date, the Sulzer has been up & running for a good while now

The museum is well worth a visit for anyone remotely interested in older engines and machinery generally.

 

The Wikipedia pages for Akroyd Stuart and Diesel are worth reading

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Akroyd_Stuart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

 

 

Tim

[carlt]

The fuel was named after the engines that it powered, which was named after the person who (allegedly milord) invented the engine.

 

Basically, any engine that ran on the compression ignition cycle, which usually used 35 sec grade fuel (or there abouts) was a 'diesel'.

 

A bit like a Hoover. The boss has an Electrolux. I call it a Hoover. Really its a vacuum or suction cleaner.

It was a joke. I must use smileys and be less subtle.

[Supermalc]

It was a joke. I must use smileys and be less subtle.

 

Not for me however I did read it twice

[Proper Job]

Ships diesels often run on much heavier oil, which has to be preheated.

 

If you want to see an engine which is pretty much as Dr Diesel intended, go to the Internal Fire museum just north of Cardigan and see the 1912 -ish 25 hp Sulzer.

 

http://www.internalfire.com/modules.php?na...age&pid=138

 

The website is well out of date, the Sulzer has been up & running for a good while now

The museum is well worth a visit for anyone remotely interested in older engines and machinery generally.

 

The Wikipedia pages for Akroyd Stuart and Diesel are worth reading

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Akroyd_Stuart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

Tim

 

If you want to see something really big:

 

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

 

Back in my seafaring days the biggest I worked on was a 32,00hp@110rpm. This really is a big un!

 

They all run on 3500 sec heavy residual fuel oil (the crap thats left over from the refining/cracking process). Its cheap, but if your burning 1,660 gallons per hour, it has to be!

[fender]

I reade in today's paper on the environmental impact of one of the derartives of veg oil. Its palm oil and it isnt good reading.

 

A good amount of veg oil (one third) comes from palm oil and there is severe environmental degradation where the oil is produced. Deforestation and peatland destruction account for a good amount of emissions responsible for global warming.

 

EG http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/274984

 

Also there is a shortage of vegetable oils which is pushing up the price, and it is going up rapidly. So whatever veg oil one switches to eventually goes up in price. There isnt that much for use as biofules hence "even if the entire quantity of vegetable oil available in the world is converted into biofuel it will address only 2-3% of fossil fuel oil requirement"

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Market...how/2465225.cms

 

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display...11/08/palm_oil/

 

So next year we likely see veg oils become very expensive.

 

Not really much choice for us when the derogation comes into effect next year, it'll be expensive one way or another

[Proper Job]

Its all about supply and demand I suppose.

 

I hope that dosen't mean the cost of me Fish & Chips is going up!

 

It also fair to say that (and I have this on good authority) that scare mongers who keep going on about oil running out are just that - scare mongers. The good news is: The human race has, to date, used less than 10% of the known oil reserves in the world (and there finding more all the time). The bad news is: we're using the easy to get to (therefore cheap) stuff. But, as the price for oil goes up, more reserves become economical to extract and process.

[Keeping Up]

Its all about supply and demand I suppose.

 

I hope that dosen't mean the cost of me Fish & Chips is going up!

Oh but it does. The price of Cod is going up and up as the supply around our island (most of which has gone to other EU members) becomes scarcer and scarcer. Our local chippy now sells "Yellow Fin Sole" whatever that is, for half the price of Cod because at the moment there's plenty of supply and not much demand.

[fender]

Oh but it does. The price of Cod is going up and up as the supply around our island (most of which has gone to other EU members) becomes scarcer and scarcer. Our local chippy now sells "Yellow Fin Sole" whatever that is, for half the price of Cod because at the moment there's plenty of supply and not much demand.

 

they also said that the more that veg oil is used for biofuels would mean that there would be a shortage of the stuff for food and so food costs would go up exhorbitantly!

 

doom doom doom! I'm off to watch a monty python dvd and get my brain hurtin' perhaps i'll do a Mr Creosote...

[pagan witch]

In reply to the two comments about running my Citroen on Bio Diesel . . .

 

Yes it is an HDI and yes Citroen say it will run on Bio Diesel. In fact I saw an article in a motoring magazine today that said Citroen and Peugeot (same company - different badge) run it at 30% in all of their 'press' motors and have been running on it for some time but switch to normal in winter due to low temp problems. In France however they run the 30% mix all year without a problem. My local Citroen dealer even asked me for the number of my supplier so that they could use it.

 

The company I use are insured against engine damage - though bet trying to make a claim would be a nightmare.

 

Not sure what they add to the stuff I get but I can assure you I've seen at least some of the source material but accept I know nothing about what else they put in it.

 

As the car came to me new I'm not too concerned about old stuff in the fuel lines / filters as it is dealer serviced every 12,000 miles.

 

All of that said I do accept that like every other fuel bio diesel is not wothout it's own blend of eco issues - in particular developing countries growing it rather than their own food products - hence I feel better about the re-used cooking oil option.