NEW BOAT ARRIVED

[Gary Peacock]

WE ARE STILL TRYING TO GET LEES TO AGREE TO REFIT  THE HAVE SENT A FITTER DOWN TODAY WITH THE VIEW TO REPAIR BITS AND I TOLD HIM THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE (HE AGREED) I AM TRYING TO GET AN EXPERT TO GIVE ME A REPORT ON ELECTRICS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you have a BMF contract?

[John Orentas]

I went to see Miller's "Moroccan boat" yesterday not in any kind of official capacity, as much a case as being nosey as anything else. As has been said the shell was built in Morocco and was shipped to Lees Narrowboats in Hyde, Cheshire from whom Miller ordered the boat in a 'sailaway' specification.

 

Lees have fully lined out the boat, installed an engine and have done much of the wiring, they also have fitted the windows and have painted the entire boat. You try to keep an open mind in these matters but I must admit that I did half expect to find a load of junk.

 

Well the truth is very different, the shell is a 50ft cruiser style, in a conventional design with only one or two minor features that might betray it's non British origin. The bow has a long swim and an unusual but quite elegant up-swept underwater profile, all the plating is flat smooth and well finished and a lot of (almost excessive) care has gone into the minor detail such as fender cleats. Two full length rubbing strakes are fitted and continuously welded on both sides. The welding an the entire boat is as good as you will see on shells much further up the quality scale no signs of spatter anywhere. Plate thickness 10, 6, 4.

 

At the rear of the boat the swim is longer than you may expect to find, terminating in the only feature I was not too keen on, a squared off swim end, presumably to accommodate a bolt-on stern tube though a welded one has been fitted, the rudder is again unusual for a lower cost boat, fabricated from half inch plate.

 

One side of the hull has at some time suffered a dent no doubt during it's already much travelled young life, but as it is below the waterline it is hardly worth bothering with. The rear deck rail has also become a casualty, has been removed and is being replaced, someone had attempted to sling the boat from it.

 

The below deck engine space has been fully painted in white, though only with one coat but the four cylinder Vetus engine has been installed to a very high standard with all wiring and piping neatly fitted along with the proper amount of flexible drive couplings.

 

Inside the boat the shell has been spray foam insulated and fully lined with ash faced ply, spoilt just a little by the use of plated steel fasteners rather than brass or stainless steel, some of the beading and a few other cosmetic bits and pieces need fitting and finishing off. The wiring has been installed to the many light fitting and plug sockets, all in the correct sizes as far as can be judged. The outside paintwork is poor and most of the window frames have been damaged.

 

Lees Narrowboats have reacted to Miller's problems in a very positive way so far, they say they will be replacing or making good the windows and that they have already engaged professional to carry out a full re-paint. It turns out that there is little or nothing wrong with the wiring of the boat albeit unfinished as is inevitable with a sailaway. As so often in these matters the boat builder /supplier will be judged not on the original problems but on how well he resolves them. Miller is quite a hard bitten businessman, I thing he will end up with a nice boat for a very good price. He has promised to keep us informed.

 

Say what you like I would recommend a Moroccan boat to anybody.

Edited April 16, 2005 by John Orentas

[steveh]

Say what you like I would recommend a Moroccan boat to anybody.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

How about a Polish one?

[John Orentas]

I don't know, never seen a Polish one.

 

How about some Chinese junk.

Edited April 15, 2005 by John Orentas

[Big COL]

John

 

A very comprehensive report on this boat, not so much doom and gloom as originally posted, I think your summing up, in that you would recommend the builders says it all.

[bottle]

John

 

Your report, good as it is, seems to be at complete odds to the first post and a later one that stated the estimate for repair/making good would be £12,000.

 

Shows there is always two sides to a story.

[John Orentas]

The surveyor that turned up prior to my visit was very thorough, he pulled up a floor panel which is best quality 0.75" plywood to reveal the floor beams which look like hardwood, he pronounced that all the floor panels should be lifted and the suppot beams should be "Tannalised" or replaced with pre-treated timber.

 

The floor removal also revealed that the steel down there was painted with twin pack epoxy. Bear in mind his estimate included for a complete paint job and a rewire which he apparently considered necessary , the story is which I heard second hand was that he considered the wires to be too thick.

 

Anyway I feel a bit uncomfortable discussing some one else's boat in this way, I will wait for Miller to respond.

Edited April 16, 2005 by John Orentas

[miller]

no problem john you comments are welcome i like the bit about me being a harrden buisness man the 27000 quid took some earning and i just like things right

[bottle]

A man after my own heart, to paraphrase: yous pays your money and you have the joice. Go for it and get the boat you asked for. Good luck.

[miller]

been to see lees today they are being very good about the problem they have given me 3 choices

1 money back

2 new boat

3sort out my boat

 

i have gone for 3 i like the hull and if they sort out all the issuse with mine it will be fine they can turn out a very good boat and seem to be getting on track in morrocco fitters back next week and they say andy russell is to repaint it

[bottle]

Nice one

 

Keep us posted and some photo's if possible.

[nichimyo]

whats a ce mark?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As far as I understand it, a CE mark is kind of the Eurpoean successor to the old British Kite Mark, which says that something has been manufactured to a specific standard.

[mayalld]

been to see lees today they are being very good about the problem they have given me 3 choices

1 money back

2 new boat

3sort out my boat

 

i have gone for 3 i like the hull and if they sort out all the issuse with mine it will be fine they can turn out a very good boat and seem to be getting on track in morrocco fitters back next week and they say andy russell is to repaint it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which would seem to be the outcome you want, and an outcome that you would have got without giving them a slagging off here.

 

As a (satisfied) customer of Lees' I did find your initial reaction somewhat over the top.

 

As I see it, the boat;

1) Had suffered damage e-route to the UK

2) Had a poor paint job

 

The builder has never tried to avoid responsibility for rectification of these faults, so I have some difficulty seeing what your beef was.

[mayalld]

The surveyor that turned up prior to my visit was very thorough, he pulled up a floor panel which is best quality 0.75" plywood to reveal the floor beams which look like hardwood, he pronounced that all the floor panels should be lifted and the suppot beams should be "Tannalised" or replaced with pre-treated timber.

 

The floor removal also revealed that the steel down there was painted with twin pack epoxy.  Bear in mind his estimate included for a complete paint job and a  rewire which he apparently considered necessary , the story is which I heard second hand was that he considered the wires to be too thick.

 

Anyway I feel a bit uncomfortable discussing some one else's boat in this way, I will wait for Miller to respond.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds like the surveyor was over-egging the pudding a little!

 

I can't see that tanalised softwood would be an improvement over the existing hardwood bearers. Indeed, I'm not too keen on use of tanalised wood in an enclosed environment. Tanalising means seriously nasty chemicals

 

Paint Job - yes it needs a complete repaint, but how much is he allowing for that? The spec for these boats is for a single colour with coachlining, not some fancy 2/3 colour job.

 

As to a rewire, I just don't see it. You can't have the wires too thick, and as a sailaway superior, a jumble of loose wiring tails is what you get. Making it look nice is down to you as part of the fit-out.

 

Before: http://www.mr-jinks.org.uk/fit24.jpg

After: http://www.mr-jinks.org.uk/fit31.jpg

[david and julie]

On pure financial and on practical terms, I am curious whether this importing boats is actually worth the savings. Miller said he spent £27K on this boat and waited some 9 months. You can buy a 50ft lined sailaway cruiser from LB's for around that and get it in a couple of months.

 

http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id14.html

 

I don't know the full spec's but the main difference appears to be the that the import is painted. However you lose the advantages of either yourself or your surveyor checking the build quality and progress. You presumably could also lose the opportunity to make any ongoing changes.

 

Given that most boaters are also environmentally aware, the costs in this respects of bringing the boat from Morocco as opposed to Liverpool should also be considered. Add on the hidden costs of putting your own people out of work and it gets worse.

 

For me the savings would need to be much more than a paint job to even consider this route. Why are people in this country so obsessed with exporting jobs for no real saving?

[Gary Peacock]

The saving isn't intended to be purely for the customer.

[miller]

Which would seem to be the outcome you want, and an outcome that you would have got without giving them a slagging off here.

 

As a (satisfied) customer of Lees' I did find your initial reaction somewhat over the top.

 

As I see it, the boat;

1) Had suffered damage e-route to the UK

2) Had a poor paint job

 

The builder has never tried to avoid responsibility for rectification of these faults, so I have some difficulty seeing what your beef was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it was your boat i looked (in there workshop)at when ordering mine both boats side by side ithink you would agree with me when i saw your boat then mine arrived lees have said they will sort the boat out thats fine as to giveing them a slagging off dead right wouldnt you the boat reqs new windows ,new paint job no not a fancy job but a proper job it also requires new doors internal joineryand finishing off how satisfied would you be if it was your boat as i said lees are prepared to do this and have not tried to fob me off but it still has to be said so the next time you post a reply make sure you know what you are talking about ta jeff miller i will post some pics when i sus out how to do it

[John Orentas]

D & J

 

There are several aspects to all this aren't there. I am a big fan of Liverpool Boats, but having seen Miller's boat I can tell you that it is a step up in terms of specification, from the plating thickness and build quality to the impressive looking four cylinder Vetus engine.

 

Some people could argue that it is our responsibility to trade with third world countries, anyway we are supposed to believe in free trade, are we really doing our own manufacturers any favours in the long term by giving them an artificial market. I don't know.

 

The way to bring about improvements to our own industries is not by protecting them, they should be keeping up, it is possible get more efficient by a degree of automation and dare I say some of the back street outfits merging and getting leaner, if this does not happen the result is inevitable anyway.

 

I would like a British boat, but then I would also like a British car and motorbike too. We should have learned the lessons.

[paulf]

The surveyor that turned up prior to my visit was very thorough, he pulled up a floor panel which is best quality 0.75" plywood to reveal the floor beams which look like hardwood, he pronounced that all the floor panels should be lifted and the suppot beams should be "Tannalised" or replaced with pre-treated timber.

 

Thats a classic if I ever heard one

 

The floor removal also revealed that the steel down there was painted with twin pack epoxy. Bear in mind his estimate included for a complete paint job and a rewire which he apparently considered necessary , the story is which I heard second hand was that he considered the wires to be too thick.

 

Wires too thick , Mind you , the cluess guy that surveyed my boat when I bought it didnt know how the charge system worked , he said the alternator was faulty because the battery bank was not charging and recommended replacement or repair . Turned out the alternator didnt charge the domestic battery bank at all . Still what do you get for four hundred quid these days . Replace hardwood with tanalised , my god .

Regards Paul

[Amicus]

Bit like house surveys, guy comes round here, glances at the exterior walls, “Wall ties need replacing” Utter rubbish, I’d had bricks out and worked a USB camera into the cavity, 1930’s wall ties in pristine condition, I showed him the pictures but there was now way he was going to back off, prat.

“Wall ties” and “rising damp” are the stock/fashion these days, most of these twerps wouldn’t know rising damp if it bit them in the arse

[bottle]

Tend to agree, our "damp" was condensation.

[DHutch]

Tbh, it sound like a cracking boat, with a few probelems.

 

- Hardwood Floor joists

- Bilges Painted with twinpack epoxy

- Almost excesivly thick wiring

 

Just a shame the outerpaint work was a bit rough, and they damaged the windows.

- Both of which are relativly easy to sort.

 

Anyone removing hardwood flooring to replace with tanalised is crasy, same goes for replaceing the wireing with thiner wires.

 

 

Daniel

[david and julie]

D & J

 

There are several aspects to all this aren't there.  I am a big fan of Liverpool Boats, but having seen Miller's boat I can tell you that it is a step up in terms of specification, from the plating thickness and build quality to the impressive looking four cylinder Vetus engine.

 

Some people could argue that it is our responsibility to trade with third world countries, anyway we are supposed to believe in free trade, are we really doing our own manufacturers any favours in the long term by giving them an artificial market. I don't know.

 

The way to bring about improvements to our own industries is not by protecting them, they should be keeping up, it is possible get more efficient by a degree of automation and dare I say some of the back street outfits merging and getting leaner, if this does not happen the result is inevitable anyway.

 

I would like a British boat, but then I would also like a British car and motorbike too.  We should have learned the lessons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

John I agree with you, to a point, the British motorcycle and car industry were at the time producing some pretty naff products. I am not sure though if the same can be said about the cottage industries that produce narrowboats. Indeed I doubt whether such products lend themselves to automation, like for example, endless streams of motorbikes all the same. I can't see Nissan and Honda making Narrowboats.

 

I have been looking for (and have now ordered) a new sailaway over the last few months and have been offered fair products at what I see has fair prices.

 

Only a couple of weeks ago ago was offered a new Piper 57ft cruiser, spec was 10,6,5,4 shell, beta 43/PRM150 fitted and running, floored and ballasted, lined in oak and sapele with wiring tails for 12v and 240v, one side door and all windows vents etc fitted.The boat was primed and blacked in comastic. Price (for that particular boat) which was available within a month was £30K. Put say £3K on for a reasonable paint job and it is only around £6K more for 7ft longer. But you are talking about a boat which if well fitted will hold its value well. I was offered similar deals at other reputable builders too. Plus you have the benefit of discussing your needs with likeable people and making changes if you want.

 

I guess what I am saying is that if I am buying something foriegn which may or may not hold its value in comparison to home produced products and I spending say £40K to £50K a saving of some £3K on the shell is not a lot on the total, but then each to their own though. You are right though that the advantage of imports is it makes the home producers sharpen their pencils.

[mayalld]

it was your boat i looked (in  there workshop)at when ordering mine both boats side by side ithink you would agree with me when i saw your boat then mine arrived lees have said they will sort the boat out  thats fine as to giveing them a slagging off dead right wouldnt you the boat reqs new windows ,new paint job no not a fancy job but a proper job it also requires new doors internal joineryand finishing off how satisfied would you be if it was your boat as i said lees are prepared to do this and have not tried to fob me off but it still has to be said  so the next time you post a reply make sure you know what you are talking about  ta jeff miller i will post some pics when i sus out how to do it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have the advantage over some others here, in that I have seen the boat. Only externally, so beyond that I'd be commenting only on what I read.

 

As to making sure I know what I'm talking about... If I'm missing out on some relevant fact, then tell me. I'm not too proud to admit if I make a mistake.

 

Wouldn't I give them a slagging off? Well;

 

If I'd bought a boat that wasn't up to scratch, and they weren't going to fix it, then yes.

If I'd bought a boat that wasn't up to scratch, and fixing it was going to seriously delay delivery, then yes.

If I'd bought a boat that wasn't up to scratch, but the builder was going to fix it, and do so without putting delivery back (and ultimately did so), then no.

 

For me, it's the end result that matters.

[miller]

my boat is now being returned to me from lees narrow boats

they have repaited it (a couple of runs) fitted new windows compleated the engine sorted out all the joinery and done a good job they also fitted me a 3000 pure sine wave inverter distribution board extra batteries and a pump out loo and internall lights free of charge