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Heather

BMC 1.5 keeps stalling

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22 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If your first picture is the pipe that came off, it looks to be the pipe to the oil pressure gauge if so it will have dumped a lot of oil and there would have been no oil pressure in the engine galleries.

This engine seems to have had the block breathers from the rocker box and the tappet chest all connected to the air filter, usually this is done because the engine is well worn and breathing heavily from the inside of the block due to piston ring blow by.

 

Deeply suspicious of this engine and the advice you had from RCR, a gearbox cannot cause an engine to overheat especially as you seem to have a mechanical gearbox with ATF oil and no oil cooler.

 

Agree with the above except the bore in the hose tail adaptor may have been small enough to keep at least some oil being supplied to the engine while it leaked out. The oil pressure GAUGE would have gone to zero the moment the pipe fell off. If there was still some oil pressure in the engine galleries for a while that might explain why the engine is still smooth and quiet. Just maybe or even hopefully there may be no major engine damage but that still leaves the stalling, apparent loss of power, and exhaust smoke to explain

 

Heather said that she had a leak on the injector pump and new injectors were fitted (I still don't understand the link or why) so I wonder if the pump has had some attention and if so has the idle stabilisation damper been screwed in too far. If so that would explain the low no load revs and the lack of power. It may even explain the poor starting to  a minor degree. Here is a link to the manual that should explain how to adjust the damper. http://the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/downloads/bmc1500L-diesel-workshop-manual.pdf If the OP has suitable spanners I see no reason they should not try it as long as they count how many flats of the adjuster hexagon they turn so they can easily put it back as it was if adjustment makes no difference.

 

Not sure this helps much and I can't get the feeling the pump timing may be wrong out of my head.

 

Edited by Tony Brooks

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The gearbox is a velvet drive. The rattle goes with more revs. RCR said they put a new drive plate on but they have said this before and we found out differently. The revs are 15 on dial has always gone to just under 21 revs with no trouble in past.

 

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44 minutes ago, Heather said:

The gearbox is a velvet drive. The rattle goes with more revs. RCR said they put a new drive plate on but they have said this before and we found out differently. The revs are 15 on dial has always gone to just under 21 revs with no trouble in past.

 

The Velvetdrive in my view would be less likely to rattle than a Hurth, the other common gearbox that uses red oil because it uses sun and planet gears rather than just a pair or for reverse a triplet of helical gears. I think for now we need to ignore the gearbox rattle..

 

If you are saying it used to rev to 2100 rpm in gear but now will only rev to 1500 rpm then something is liming the power and we don't know what. If you feel able try the idle stabilisation damper adjustment so it can be ruled out, I am not saying this is the cause and other symptoms suggest it won't be but its safe and easyish to do.

 

PS the Velvetdrive is a hydraulic gearbox, not mechanical.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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thank you for the manual. I could not see where the idle  adjustment was in there though. I will see if i can get someone to do this for me.  The pump was set by ear by RCR when the boat wouldn't start on our way up the Thames last year and it ran lovely until we broke down. This was before the engine came out after it went bang and lost oil pressure and started smoking  but it got us home. They said this was just the leaking injector pump as gasket had failed and blamed our gearbox.  Don't know why they changed the injectors as they said their engine was fine! I presume the timing would be different with new injectors.

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26 minutes ago, Heather said:

 They said this was just the leaking injector pump as gasket had failed and blamed our gearbox.  Don't know why they changed the injectors as they said their engine was fine! I presume the timing would be different with new injectors.

Honestly? because they did not know what they were talking about.

Injectors have no bearing on timing, just like overheating has nothing to do with the gearbox. Neither has the injector pump have any relevance to the gearbox, its all Bull S**t to extract money from you for Stephanie's slush fund.

Edited by Tracy D'arth

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16 minutes ago, Heather said:

thank you for the manual. I could not see where the idle  adjustment was in there though. I will see if i can get someone to do this for me.  The pump was set by ear by RCR when the boat wouldn't start on our way up the Thames last year and it ran lovely until we broke down. This was before the engine came out after it went bang and lost oil pressure and started smoking  but it got us home. They said this was just the leaking injector pump as gasket had failed and blamed our gearbox.  Don't know why they changed the injectors as they said their engine was fine! I presume the timing would be different with new injectors.

 

Right - please get this clear;  I am not talking about the idle adjustment. I am not talking about the maximum speed adjustment that you should never alter. I am talking about the idle stabilisation damper.

 

Right on top of the injector pump, between where the two cables are attached, there is a sort of turret with three hexagons sticking up all on the same "bolt". Right at the top is an 8mm bleed screw that i would rather you did not mess with. It is screwed into a larger hexagon that is the head of a "bolt". This is the idle damper adjustment. Below that is the locknut that stops the damper moving once set. If you are going to try adjusting it make sure you hold the damper hexagon so t can't turn and undo the locknut before trying to turn the damper and  adjust as per the manual. Now there is a problem in that your photo seems to show such a damper but not the more usual idle speed adjustment. I can't see the detail but it looks as if your idle speed is set by a screw with a spring around it, much like adjustments on old car carburettors, just on the engine side of the idle damper adjustment. It sits angled back towards the engine.

 

I must say the injector pump looks a bit dirty for an overhauled engine two years old.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Brooks

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31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

PS the Velvetdrive is a hydraulic gearbox, not mechanical.

I did not know that it was a Vevetdrive at the time, in which case it may just have an oil cooler but it still will never make the engine overheat.

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Has anyone checked the prop is not fouled yet?

There is talk of fuel leaks and new washers, is this just prior to the problems?

 

I am losing track of what chronological order these changes and problems have occurred, could the OP please give us a blow by blow account in the correct order that the difficulties have occurred and what changes were made at the time?

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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I did not know that it was a Vevetdrive at the time, in which case it may just have an oil cooler but it still will never make the engine overheat.

I know, was just telling the OP for information. Anyway after the photos we know it wads an oil pressure gauge pipe that failed.

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Has anyone checked the prop is not fouled yet?

There is talk of fuel leaks and new washers, is this just prior to the problems?

 

I am losing track of what chronological order these changes and problems have occurred, could the OP please give us a blow by blow account in the correct order that the difficulties have occurred and what changes were made at the time?

I don't think things have been set out in a clear chronological order. Things are coming out in dribs and drabs and I also have lost track.

 

It now seems the engine was running well after the pump was re-timed by ear and the boat got from somewhere on the Thames to Broxbourne without problems. All this happened last year. I assume (but do not know) the loss of power, poor starting, and exhaust smoke has only happened since the pipe came off so maybe it does require opening up for a look see or at least a compression test. However I am still having problems with the running nice and smooth after the initial knocking noise has died down.

 

I have no idea when or why the new injectors were fitted or how the fuel leak was cured and where it was leaking from. There is a suggestion it may have been the main pump shaft seal but if so I don't see how this particular OP would know about it. More likely a throttle or stop shaft O ring I suspect for now. Now if that was the case can the flats on the shafts be mid-fitted so it affects the governor movement on this not quiet s common pump type? I don't know but doubt it.

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Sorry for late reply I locked out my password. Not very goid at this! 

After manual pump adjust boat ran and started lovely up to 1600 revs above this it overheated. We overtook a boat and that was the bang and drop in oil pressure. The came out and said fine just gasket on the pump or injector so we kept topping up oil and came home slowly from Wallingford to Broxbourne. Temp guage stopped working so we just went slow. On starting in morning clouds of smoke and very rattling and noisy but settled down after a while. They said they would replace engine under guarantee. When they took engine out they said it was our gearbox rattling and that the engine made different noise when put in gear on bench.  After months of arguing they returned engine and installed it. It work for 2 short runs at low speeds. When we tested faster that is when the oil came out from the oil pressure pipe coming off. Our friend put it back on and said brass washers too big so fuel leaking fom on top of filter. They changed these and said fuel is getting through ok. It now loses revs and cuts out. The starting was ok but since the oil came out is now hard and engine noisy when cold. We are waiting for someone to help us try the things you guys have kindly suggested but he is away this weekend. The idle damper is I think what rcr called the anti stall. Our friend tried adjusting this but didn't seem to do much so put back as it was. Really frustrating. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving.

The injectors were fitted by the before they reinstalled the engine despite the fact they said their engine was fine!

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Thanks Heather, the anti-stall damper (call it what you will) was always a long shot so now that can be ruled out.

 

I honestly fell you now need a compression test (and send us the results) plus a hot & cold oil pressure test at idle and at say 1000+ RPM. Also send the results. From those we can confirm that whatever the person doing the tests suggest sounds feasible.

 

There are two places where washers may be on the top of the filter. The larger hexagon with the leak off pipe banjo on it normally has two soft washers one above and one below the banjo. A leak here is very annoying but should not affect performance. or starting to any significant extent. The other place there might be one s on the centre bolt that holds the whole assembly together. The problem is this is more often than not sealed by a rubber O ring, not a soft washer although some older engines may have used a soft washer here.  In the past some after-market filters were supplied with O rings that were too small so leaked. Again as long as the lift pump (electric in your case) is pumping correctly I dunt a small leak here would cause any major problems.

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Yes it was the two washers at the top.I will see of I can get someone to do a compression test etc and let you know. It may take a week but I will let you know. Does this post get closed if you don't write on It for a week? Thanks

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Little of this tale of woe makes sense other than the facts that RCR supplied the engine, probably from Key Engineering, it has a history of odd failures and even odder repairs, false information condemning a gearbox, overheating, losing oil pressure, and going bang.

 

Sound like a complete waste of time.

 

Two to three years ago rings a bell when the same BMC 1500 engine was touted around several unfortunate buyers, being replaced after it failed to perform several times.

 

I wonder if this is the same bad penny?

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Yes it was key diesels. They said they would put another engine in buy it would cost another £1500 on top of what we have paid. We have had 55 visits from them and still dont have a working engine! We have threatened legsl action several times and they don't seem bothered. How can a disgraceful company like this still keep running! 

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7 minutes ago, Heather said:

Yes it was the two washers at the top.I will see of I can get someone to do a compression test etc and let you know. It may take a week but I will let you know. Does this post get closed if you don't write on It for a week? Thanks

No the this topic stays open indefinitely unless someone misbehaves or it goes badly off topic so the mods lock it

 

The person equipped to do a compression test on a diesel (a petrol engine tester is no good) is very likely to have a mechanical oil pressure gauge so they can also check the actual oil pressure hot, cold, idle and revving. The oil pressureS MIGHT give a clue about bearing condition.

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1 hour ago, Heather said:

Yes it was key diesels. They said they would put another engine in buy it would cost another £1500 on top of what we have paid. We have had 55 visits from them and still dont have a working engine! We have threatened legsl action several times and they don't seem bothered. How can a disgraceful company like this still keep running! 

Stop messing with them, sue the person/people to whom you paid money in the County Court.

Don't waste you breath talking to Stephanie, its a waste of time.

 

 

Don't go after this one either, its from the same place and will not be as good as it looks. Stephanie is still at it.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMC-1-5-Secondhand-Engine/164164380006?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3D31e34bb92c584b7da3c20fcd764dbeb0%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D143758474037%26itm%3D164164380006%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tracy D'arth

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My friend works in a car garage hopefully has right stuff. The oil pressure was only 25 when engine first fitted 2 years ago and they had to clean the oil pressure switch as sticking. It drops from 50 to 25 quite often. My old bmc engine always stayed at 50. Probabky more rubbish they have told us!

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6 minutes ago, Heather said:

My friend works in a car garage hopefully has right stuff. The oil pressure was only 25 when engine first fitted 2 years ago and they had to clean the oil pressure switch as sticking. It drops from 50 to 25 quite often. My old bmc engine always stayed at 50. Probabky more rubbish they have told us!

More bunkum, cleaning an oil pressure switch to increase oil pressure?  Its all rubbish to get away from the plain fact the the engine is a lemon, with pretty paint.

25 psi at running revs?  Woefully low, improbably low if its a "new" engine/ Oil pressure on a BMC 1.5D at 2000 rpm should be 50 + psi.  

25 psi hot at tickover is normal.

Edited by Tracy D'arth

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29 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

More bunkum, cleaning an oil pressure switch to increase oil pressure?  Its all rubbish to get away from the plain fact the the engine is a lemon, with pretty paint.

25 psi at running revs?  Woefully low, improbably low if its a "new" engine/ Oil pressure on a BMC 1.5D at 2000 rpm should be 50 + psi.  

25 psi hot at tickover is normal.

Agreed. On an old worn 1.5 I would not be unduly worried if it got to above 40 psi hot and revving and around 12 psi on idle but it would suggest its time to start saving money for a major expense.

 

The oil pressure switch if your engine has one works the oil pressure warning light and that is either on or off. Probably switches at around 12psi. What may give low oil pressure s the oil pressure relief valve stuck  open but it shoudl never happen on a new engine or one few years old with regular oil changes. As you say, more bunkum.  The overhaulers were probably too tight to fit a new oil pump or did not know how to measure the old one for wear. Otherwise the new main and big end bearings were not checked for clearance, nip, backing and butting/ With that low oil pressure I wonder if they even measured the bearing journals or had then reground.

 

Make sure your friendly mechanic knows he will have to clamp or screw the compression tester into the engine and it must measure well in excess of 400 psi. (But probably not in your engine's case!)

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Wallingford to Broxbourne is quite a long way. I would expect a majorly problematic engine to throw it's toys out of the pram before the trip was completed. 

 

Good old BMC 1.5 gets you home at the end of the day even if you have to keep adding oil. It's better than the thing failing completely. 

 

A bit like the old Land Rover straight through 4th gear even if the gearbox bearings fail you still get home !

 

Solid British () engineering .

Edited by magnetman

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