Continued Cruising and the 28 day rule?

[gemmaze]

Does the planning 28 day rule apply to boaters who are not moving but usually move every 2 weeks as required in CRT terms?

For example if I got a 6 month over stay permit hypothetically for whatever reason, winter mooring, stoppage, health and so on, why would I not need planning permission for being on that land above the water beyond 28 days even if the situation was temporary?

Is there any references in law to this please?

thanks.

[matty40s]

Dont even go there, CRT will blacklist you as you will stop the revenue from darker months people who dont fancy moving

DMPWDFM

[gemmaze]

36 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Dont even go there, CRT will blacklist you as you will stop the revenue from darker months people who dont fancy moving

DMPWDFM

Ha ha black list me!!

Its a genuine question IM not poking, private message by all means if its sensitive IM curious how they get around it.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, gemmaze said:

For example if I got a 6 month over stay permit

It is very complex situation, but firstly what do you mean by a "6-month overstay permit" ?

 

I'm not aware of any such thing.

 

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence.

 

The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

 

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO13 .

 

Furthermore, occasional or extended holiday stays on a vessel may not, as a matter of fact and degree, be considered to amount to a material change of use i.e. to permanent residential use.

 

A number of examples will illustrate the range of issues:

 The use of a long-term mooring on a canal for the ‘parking’ and/or maintenance of a vessel between cruises will not usually require planning permission as such an activity is ordinarily ancillary or incidental to the use of the canal for navigation14. That will be so even if the vessel at the mooring is occasionally used for overnight stays.

 Where, however, a vessel or floating structure (a) does not cruise or is incapable of cruising and (b) is used for residential purposes as a person’s sole or main residence, many local planning authorities will regard it as being materially different in nature or character from any previous non-residential use of the planning unit and/or, where appropriate, as having actually created a new planning unit. In such circumstances, it is likely that planning permission will be required for the residential use of the mooring.

 More difficult may be the situation where a vessel is used for residential purposes, as a person’s sole or main residence, but does cruise regularly between stays amounting to more than 28 days at its mooring base. Whether there has been a material change of use in the location of the mooring will be a matter of fact and degree having regard to the planning unit and the nature or character of the previous and existing use.

 Also more difficult is where a small number of vessels are used for residential purposes within a larger site of leisure moorings. Here the residential use may be difficult to distinguish from the leisure use, and the scale of environmental impact may be marginal in relation to the existing level of activity at the site or within the planning unit15 .

 

 

Residential use of a vessel at a designated location in winter but which continuously cruises in summer (i.e. seasonal cruisers).

1) Reviewed on a case by case basis

2) Planning permission may be required for any stay at a mooring longer than 28 days in any calendar year

 

Mooring along the line of the waterway has been established practice since the canals were built, and mooring for commercial and leisure boats was controlled by the original canal companies prior to nationalisation in 1948. In a 2006 appeal* by British Waterways against an enforcement notice issued by Kennet District Council in respect of leisure moorings along the Kennet & Avon Canal, the Inspector found in favour of British Waterways. He confirmed that the long-term mooring of boats normally used in navigation (while not in use) is incidental and ancillary to the main use of the canal as a man-made navigation. Control of such mooring is a matter for the navigation authority (as control of parking is a matter for highway authorities) and not a matter of planning control. British Waterways acknowledges that the long-term mooring where a boat is the occupant’s main place of residence normally requires planning consent.

 

*Planning appeal decision Ladies Bridge, Wilcot, Wiltshire (Appeal ref APP/E3905/C/06/2019638)

Edited August 12, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[gemmaze]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is very complex situation, but firstly what do you mean by a "6-month overstay permit" ?

 

I'm not aware of any such thing.

 

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence.

 

The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

 

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO13 .

 

Furthermore, occasional or extended holiday stays on a vessel may not, as a matter of fact and degree, be considered to amount to a material change of use i.e. to permanent residential use.

 

A number of examples will illustrate the range of issues:

 The use of a long-term mooring on a canal for the ‘parking’ and/or maintenance of a vessel between cruises will not usually require planning permission as such an activity is ordinarily ancillary or incidental to the use of the canal for navigation14. That will be so even if the vessel at the mooring is occasionally used for overnight stays.

 Where, however, a vessel or floating structure (a) does not cruise or is incapable of cruising and (b) is used for residential purposes as a person’s sole or main residence, many local planning authorities will regard it as being materially different in nature or character from any previous non-residential use of the planning unit and/or, where appropriate, as having actually created a new planning unit. In such circumstances, it is likely that planning permission will be required for the residential use of the mooring.

 More difficult may be the situation where a vessel is used for residential purposes, as a person’s sole or main residence, but does cruise regularly between stays amounting to more than 28 days at its mooring base. Whether there has been a material change of use in the location of the mooring will be a matter of fact and degree having regard to the planning unit and the nature or character of the previous and existing use.

 Also more difficult is where a small number of vessels are used for residential purposes within a larger site of leisure moorings. Here the residential use may be difficult to distinguish from the leisure use, and the scale of environmental impact may be marginal in relation to the existing level of activity at the site or within the planning unit15 .

 

 

Residential use of a vessel at a designated location in winter but which continuously cruises in summer (i.e. seasonal cruisers).

1) Reviewed on a case by case basis

2) Planning permission may be required for any stay at a mooring longer than 28 days in any calendar year

 

Mooring along the line of the waterway has been established practice since the canals were built, and mooring for commercial and leisure boats was controlled by the original canal companies prior to nationalisation in 1948. In a 2006 appeal* by British Waterways against an enforcement notice issued by Kennet District Council in respect of leisure moorings along the Kennet & Avon Canal, the Inspector found in favour of British Waterways. He confirmed that the long-term mooring of boats normally used in navigation (while not in use) is incidental and ancillary to the main use of the canal as a man-made navigation. Control of such mooring is a matter for the navigation authority (as control of parking is a matter for highway authorities) and not a matter of planning control. British Waterways acknowledges that the long-term mooring where a boat is the occupant’s main place of residence normally requires planning consent.

 

*Planning appeal decision Ladies Bridge, Wilcot, Wiltshire (Appeal ref APP/E3905/C/06/2019638)

Thanks Alan brilliant reply as always.

Yes you are right a 6 month permit is not an immediately obvious thing or whatever the official terminology is.

I ended up prior to the birth of our child and after giving birth being granted an overstay of up to nine months on the tow path due to health and due to lock closure and repairs prior to then over winter, it was an awful location and my parter had to lug water by wheel barrow.

I fully understand the terminology for the offside and the requirements for residential mooring and planning but what I dont understand is why CRT can grant a boater permission to stay beyond 28 days on the tow path side they own when that vessel is in fact the boaters main residency without the council serving an eviction notice.

 

Is it becasue CRT have such large resources and would not be an easy target perhaps compared to a small time mooring site.

Edited August 12, 2020 by gemmaze

[matty40s]

Why did you quote and not add anything.....

[Guest]

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

Why did you quote and not add anything.....

Perhaps they made a simple mistake.?

 

Which actually they have now rectified.

[gemmaze]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Why did you quote and not add anything.....

Ive just edited it Matty I pressed the wrong button.

[PhilR]

1 hour ago, gemmaze said:

Does the planning 28 day rule apply to boaters who are not moving but usually move every 2 weeks as required in CRT terms?

For example if I got a 6 month over stay permit hypothetically for whatever reason, winter mooring, stoppage, health and so on, why would I not need planning permission for being on that land above the water beyond 28 days even if the situation was temporary?

Is there any references in law to this please?

thanks.

I think the subject header says it all? How does Continuous Cruising and the 28 day "rule" fit together. It just sounds like another attempt to avoid paying for a mooring

[Guest]

1 minute ago, gemmaze said:

Ive just edited it Matty I pressed the wrong button.

Be careful.

 

You are now in shark infested waters......

 

??

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Be careful.

 

You are now in shark infested waters......

 

??

I responded to what the OP posted, it's not my fault they couldnt respond in a normal manner, they are not forum newbies..

I will digest and look at new response tommorow..

And so to bed

 

[gemmaze]

9 minutes ago, PhilR said:

I think the subject header says it all? How does Continuous Cruising and the 28 day "rule" fit together. It just sounds like another attempt to avoid paying for a mooring

We are moored locally to you if you would like to come and slur our charaters in person but judging by your judemental comment the measure of the man you are is pretty clear.

 

[matty40s]

17 minutes ago, PhilR said:

I think the subject header says it all? How does Continuous Cruising and the 28 day "rule" fit together. It just sounds like another attempt to avoid paying for a mooring

There is no 28 day rule on the waterways.

[PhilR]

3 minutes ago, gemmaze said:

We are moored locally to you if you would like to come and slur our charaters in person but judging by your judemental comment the measure of the man you are is pretty clear.

 

I thought my comment was factual rather than judgemental. Where are you moored now?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I responded to what the OP posted, it's not my fault they couldnt respond in a normal manner, they are not forum newbies..

I will digest and look at new response tommorow..

And so to bed

 

Well its pretty easy to make a simple mistake.

 

Its obvious that when somebody posts a reply which consists of nothing more than a quote that they have somehow slipped up.

 

Well to most people it is anyway.

 

 

[gemmaze]

6 minutes ago, PhilR said:

I thought my comment was factual rather than judgemental. Where are you moored now?

Manchester.

How can your post be factual when you are implying something you have no concrete evidence of.

If I did not wish to pay for something thats my choice and I would have no problem telling you or anyone for that matter ragardless if you liked what I had to say, so until I say otherwise you know nothing of my intention so manners yourself and consider yourself told.

Edited August 12, 2020 by gemmaze

[PhilR]

2 minutes ago, gemmaze said:

Manchester.

How can your post be factual when you are implying something you have no concrete evidence of.

If I did not wish to pay for something thats my choice and I would have no problem telling you or anyone for that matter ragardless if you liked what I had to say, so until I say otherwise you know nothing of my intention so manners yourself and consider yourself told.

I was hoping you might be able to elaborate some details about the 28 day rule. I must admit, that is something I haven't heard about before.

[gemmaze]

34 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I responded to what the OP posted, it's not my fault they couldnt respond in a normal manner, they are not forum newbies..

I will digest and look at new response tommorow..

And so to bed

 

Well then on that note I take it what you have written on your business website is a major typo because you dont appear to be that person capable of offering that level of understanding and kindness, perhaps you were hacked!!!

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by gemmaze

[matty40s]

13 minutes ago, gemmaze said:

Manchester.

How can your post be factual when you are implying something you have no concrete evidence of.

If I did not wish to pay for something thats my choice and I would have no problem telling you or anyone for that matter ragardless if you liked what I had to say, so until I say otherwise you know nothing of my intention so manners yourself and consider yourself told.

Thanks for that quote.

I will not contribute any more.

[gemmaze]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Thanks for that quote.

I will not contribute any more.

You didnt contribute anything anyway other than choose to be unkind, and now you are trying to use another quote to excuse yourself.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by gemmaze

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, gemmaze said:

You didnt contribute anything anyway other than choose to be unkind.

My advice was in the 2nd post, it's not my fault you seem to want confrontation rather than something more serene.

[gemmaze]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

My advice was in the 2nd post, it's not my fault you seem to want confrontation rather than something more serene.

Excuse me you were off hand and another member pulled you for it, you need to take responsibility for yourself, I dont want confrontation but I will not be a doormat for the forums passive agressive members and their snide jibs thank you very much.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by gemmaze

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, matty40s said:

There is no 28 day rule on the waterways.

Remember the forced withdrawal of the Roving Mooring Permit ?

 

It has to be withdrawn because it was deemed illegal.

 

The fact that "Winter Moorings" are granted, has on a number of occasions  been viewed as not complying with planning regulations, but each time the discussions are quietly closed with such comment as "why are you trying to stop a benefit that boaters get ?"

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, gemmaze said:

Excuse me you were off hand and another meber pulled you for it, you need to take responsibility for yourself, I dont want confrontation but I will not be a doormat for the forums passive agressive members and their snide jibs thank you very much.

 

The other "meber" likes to try to wind me up, and follows me around.

Take advice from my first post or ignore me. 

I have no dissatisfied customers from work I have done for them.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, gemmaze said:

Excuse me you were off hand and another member pulled you for it, you need to take responsibility for yourself, I dont want confrontation but I will not be a doormat for the forums passive agressive members and their snide jibs thank you very much.

 

Read @Alan de Enfield 's posts.

 

We rarely agree on much if anything but he's giving the best info. So far.

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

The other "meber" likes to try to wind me up, and follows me around.

Take advice from my first post or ignore me. 

I have no dissatisfied customers from work I have done for them.

You wind yourself up matty.

 

So grow up.

 

Ps  what is a 'meber'. See how easy it is to make a simple mistake?

Edited August 12, 2020 by The Happy Nomad