antarmike

Back to Stars...Can anyone connect Ethiopia with any celestial connection? My limited resaerch (well google) cannot find a connection so is this one total nonsense? Ethiopia is credited with originating Astrology? Quote "The Ethiopians were the first who invented the science of stars, and gave names to the planets, not at random and without meaning, but descriptive of the qualities which they conceived them to possess..." unquote. Ethiopia and the Origin of Civilization Part 2 By John G. Jackson (1939) Is the fact that the Ethiopians came up with the first Zodiac really the connection that arrives at Ethiopia as a Star class name? Can any one find a better connection? Phosphorus (Walkers Small Ricky Butty) is the Greek name for the Morning Star. The Morning Star is not a star but the planet Venus. Venus has been given to one of the two prototype wooden Stars Motors built by H&W Again we have two different names for the same object, indicating to me that a single person did not draw up the list (ref Tucana/ Toucan) It gets worse because Hesperus (small ricky Motor) is the Greek for the evening star...Which is also the planet Venus! Did one person really pick all the names? But in mitigation Hesperus was intended to be paired with Phosphorus (so morning and evening star were a pair) I presume this was intentional. Isis is another Lunar crater. Tama-nui-te-rā is the The Māori word for the personification of the Sun and from this comes the Māori word for 'sun' or 'day' which is rā, Ra was the Egyptian sun-god. But as far as I know there is no scientific usage that links Ra to any celestial body (or even to the Sun.) So Ra appears to have some vague connection with the Sun but again Sun appears as a seperate name. Another example of two names for the same object or another totally unconnected name?? Can any one connect Ra? Penelope is the fourth largest impact crater on Tethys, which is one of Saturn's moons. (now that is a weird choice!)

Alan, I have only just noticed but there are three RAF personnel in the photo and three German prisoners in the photo (based on who is wearing British puttees or Tunic and cap and who is wearing boots and German field caps) so it is one to one supervision, and therefore there are other people who presumably can hear what is going on and who able to help our grandfather!

I am surprised West Halton Railway station, on the North Lindsey light Railway, Or East Halton Railway Station on the Great Central hasn't been thrown in to the list of possibles. (not that I think they had anything to do with the naming of the boat) West Halton Railway Station East halton Railway Station

I was aware of this railway but quote "Although primarily a freight line (into RAF Halton camp) the Halton Light Railway did carry unofficial passengers."Unquote I therefore assumed it would not appear in Bradshaws, which presumably it did not or a choice of three (or five see later post)Haltons would have been offered to us by the proponents of the "Bradshaw's theory. (Bradshaw's was a collection of passenger service timetables, and there were no scheduled passenger services on this branch, so although I have no way of checking I presume that it does not appear.)

Theia was proposed first in 2000 according to what I have googled....(and apart from this modern naming I can find no connection between Thea/Theia and any other celestial feature.) The fact that Stars were even chosen, when the names and pronunciations where highly confusing to sometimes totally illiterate boatmen, and more often barely literate boatmen, meant it wasn't at all practical and must I suggest have been driven by some sort of enthusiastic amateur who enjoyed a bit of stargazing. No sensible person would have chosen the system, knowing the difficulties it would cause with many of the intended crews. So Yes it seems likely that a keen amateur stargazer kicked off the process. The naming process may have taken some time and everyone in the office was given a go. Some would have jotted down names then and there, others would have spent time to go to their local library and see what books they could find, That does not mean that Office staff could not have gone and looked at a variety of publications of vastly different depths of accuracy or relevance to come up with offerings, and then come back with whatever factoids they had picked up.

This is where I bow out because as far as I am concerned Halton hasn't got a railway station and the theory has been disproved, because the most obvious Halton is Halton, Bucks on the G.U. Wendover Arm. But when I say that I am told I am clutching at straws and conversely I think, on the balance of probability, you have chosen the wrong Halton and apparently you have done so just to be able to say Halton has a railway station in order to preserve your pet theory. Why go to such lengths to avoid the most obvious Halton? (It is not as if you can even tie your theory down and say which of two possible Haltons with stations the boat is named after) So I will leave it there, We ain't getting any further forward. And does Thea /Theia appear in any form in that book? Would one person enter both Tucana and Toucan as boat names knowing them to be the same. Or does this show that several people where involved in a group exercise, two people at least entered possible names, one suggesting Toucan whilst someone else submitted Tucana? And whoever made the final choice (third person) did not know that Tucana and Toucan where one in the same and chose both?

Your post was worth posting but as you say, it is not the document we need to say stars were picked from a list. It is after all only a list of Constellations. Star class names include purely mythical being who never gave their name to heavenly bodies, Features on the moon, astronomical concepts of imaginary spheres, planets, moons, signs of the zodiac and classes of heavenly bodies, phenomena only happening in earth's atmosphere etc, Gaseous elements, and names that mean absolutely nothing I don't doubt that lists of galaxies were available, my point is that the star class names go beyond any single source list. What I asked of everyone is can you suggest what was used as a source document from which to pick the Star class names? The "Bradshaw's" for the Star class? So would have looking at a road map.......

Derek, when I asked to be shown a list or a book that might contain the names of all the star class boats, I thought it was fairly obvious that I meant a list or book that would have been available in the early 1930's, from which one person could pick all the star class names. Quote "Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names" Unquote. I didn't mean point me to something on the internet. I still wait for a contemporary publication that could be a single source of the star class names. If we can't find one it makes saying a list was used rather difficult. Sorry Cath but I disagree when you say say that it was a list complied by just one person with an Astronomical interest. If someone was truly interested why is the list populated by spurious nonsensical names? If you have a particular interest you tend to have done a lot of reading on the subject and "Know your Onions". However the Star names came about it wasn't the result of a serious researcher or enthusiast who would not have made these mistakes! Astronomers also tend to have total contempt for astrologers, so to say one person was writing the list and he was an astronomer/astrologer seems to be an oxymoron. A keen Astronomer would have known Argon was an inert gaseous element with an atomic number of 18 and no more! I am struggling to think why any technically accurate reference list would include star signs, a totally spurious load of nonsense based on areas of the sky. (Virgo etc) along with craters on the moon, or technical terms such as Zenith (an imaginary point directly "above" a particular location, on the imaginary celestial sphere.). Sounds like a very wierd book. Zodiac is an obscure conceptual term rather than any actual object in the sky (In both astrology and historical astronomy, the zodiac is a circle of twelve 30° divisions of celestial longitude that are centered upon the ecliptic: the apparent path of the Sun across the celestial sphere over the course of the year. ) There is a constellation Tucana (the Toucan) but we have star Motor Tucana paired with Taurus (nonsensical Astrological rubbish) and Butty Toucan (the English translation of Tucana) paired with Sculptor (both Constellation and galaxy). Tucana? Toucan? same thing, its the same galaxy twice! Meteor is not an object either, rather it is the visible path of a meteoroid that has entered the Earth's atmosphere. ie the visible path of a falling object, not the object itself. The visible meteor only comes into existence once the meteroid has entered Earth's atmosphere, so there is nothing "Heavenly" to do with Meteors except as a poular misconception of what one is. (akin to bubbles in bubble chamber, not a sub atomic particle whose course they expose) Malus (Latin for mast) was a sectional asterism in the former constellation Argo Navis. Its stars were incorporated into the new constellation Pyxis by Nicolas Louis de Lacaille. He died in 1762 so Malus had not used as the name of an apparent grouping of stars for about 180 years when given as a name of the boat. In the 19th century astronomer John Herschel suggested renaming Pyxis to 'Malus' but the suggestion was not followed. Comet is a generic name or any one of the Small Solar System bodies. Not any unique object, rather a class of object. (as is planet) Thea- should that be Theia? Theia is not a heavenly body, but rather hypothesized protoplanet is derived from the mythical Greek titan Theia, who gave birth to the Moon goddess, Selene. This designation was proposed initially by the English geochemist Alex N. Halliday in 2000 and has become accepted in the scientific community. According to modern theories of planet formation, Theia was part of a population of Mars-sized bodies that existed in the Solar System 4.5 billion years ago. But Theia was only suggested and named in 2000, so whatever Thea was meant to be when the name was used on the boat, it wasn't the current assumed protoplanet. So is Theia named after the mythical Greek titan herself? If so it is a naming based on a Mythological Titan who did not have any object in the heavens named after her in the 1930's. As I say very weird book it would have been. I am with my brother on this one. A group of people throwing in what they thought were star names.....resulting in a nonsensical mishmash. Names in a hat thrown in at random, same as the Towns!

I, being a local lad, and not thinking much about it always thought Halton was named after The Bucks village on the Wendover arm. It seems so logical that a GU boat would be named after a GU town/ village, I never thought it would be named after anywhere else. Equally I always assumed that Belfast was named as such , by a representative of Harland and Woolf, because it was a Harland and Woolf boat and Harland and Woolf are based in Belfast, and for no other reason. We will have to agree to differ, I don't buy the theory, and I feel there is enough reason to doubt it that I remain unconvinced. As for stars, so many are not stars, some are planets, some are moons of planets, some are moons of asteroids, some constellations, some asteroids/ proto-planets, some galaxies, some astrology, some mythology, some completely meaningless (unless inert gaseous elements have a connection to the heavens), that I doubt that there was ever a list that contained all the Star names. Show me a list (or even a book) that is a possible contender for the source of the star names, and I will start to believe in the theory that any actual list was the source of the names any of classes. But you still haven't given any reason why they might need a list. A lot of the argument has been about which list was used. As I said earlier why the heck would they need a list? There is absolutely no proven need for a list. I could from the top of my head give you 172 names of towns and villages in just the three counties, Herts, Bucks and Lincs where I have lived and I know the area. Give me an office full of staff and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to need a list to come up with a mere 172 names is there? So why do you say that they decided to use Bradshaw's when names where readily available without resource to almanacs, directories etc? The stars seem to have been drawn from everywhere and nowhere and that I believe suggests that were also named by a collaboration of people thinking up appropriate names, but on that occasion having even less idea what the rules and criteria for inclusion were and the hap-hazard process being even less well thought out that for the towns. If (for both classes of boat) the names were produced from an actual list, this makes proof reading of the selected names easy and there should be no mistakes, If people threw in names verbally or or on bits of paper whoever collated them and typed out the final list has no master source against which checks can be made, and instead is merely typing out what was said verbally in a meeting, and jotted down by a bored secretary without a lot of education in the heavenly bodies or the geography of the U.K.. The fact that there are so many howlers in both the Towns and the Stars points, in my mind, to a brain storming session recorded by a secretary and typed up without anything to check the results against. Quote"Mike - your observation does nothing to undermine the gazetteer hypothesis. Only a boat name without a station would do that." My theory has also done nothing to undermine another theory that the towns were selected from the output of thousands of monkeys bashing away at typewriters.....nothing could disprove that theory! Monkeys on typewriters would best explain why Duke and Duchess are Royalty class names since in U.K. Dukes and Duchesses are ranks within the peerage system, not royal titles. Even in Europe there have been no Royal rulers who where Dukes or Duchesses since 1918. Certainly by the 1930's in the UK being a Duke or a Duchess did not make you a royal. Light blue touch paper and retire (to bed)

Staverton Could be Staverton Northants which does not have a Railway Station. Near Daventry, not on the canal but a stones throw from one. What if Barnes was not the London Barnes but Barnes, Sunderland, Did Barnes, sunderland have a railway station? it certainly hasn't now. Belmont, Yes there is one with a Railway station but Belmont could be Belmont (parish), County Durham Belmont, Ayr Belmont, Belfast an electoral ward in Northern Ireland Belmont, County Durham Belmont, East Sussex Belmont, Lancashire Belmont, Shetland Belmont Rural, Herefordshire If it was named after any of these would it still have a railway station? I am not going through the whole list but this is enough of a try to say that it is possible that town class boats were named after one particular town with a given name that might not have a Railway Station. Elton, Cambridgeshire, England (formerly Elton, Huntingdonshire) has a railway station, but do:- Elton, Cheshire, England Elton, County Durham, England Elton, Derbyshire, England Elton, Gloucestershire, England Elton, Greater Manchester, England Elton, Herefordshire, England Elton, Nottinghamshire, England

I am sure I could name hundreds of towns without need of any printed reference. Surely an office full of staff would know enough town names in their head to far exceed one hundred and seventy something without needing Bradshaw's. (or any other written list) And although it is claimed each of these Towns or villages has a railway station that might not be true if for example Halton was named after the village on the Wendover Arm, (nearest Railway station Wendover??) part of the Grand Union Canal and not HALTON: Lancashire (LMS), or Halton Cheshire (GWR/LMS Joint). I haven't looked into this but it seems people have been looking for railway stations to match the names rather than looking at the names and seeing if there isn't an alternative town or village that may have been the intended place the name alludes to which doesn't have a Railway Station. There seems to be a lot of canal towns in the naming, so to my mind at least Halton the Buckinghamshire village being on a GUCCCo owned canal would seem a very likely source of a name. (Halton Reservoir was/is one of the reservoirs that feeds Tring Summit and is of some importance.) Are there other cases where the boat name is both a railway station and also a town or a village without such a station, and if there others apart from Halton, how do we know the name was chosen from the Station not the railway-less town or village?

Renton always gives me problems, A tiny village in Scotland at the time, yes it has a railway station but in 2001 its population was just over 2100. Can I suggest that the naming was done by everyone in the office throwing names in the hat. Places that were significant to them Maybe their favourite holiday haunt. Most people went on holiday by train so by default they go to somewhere with a railway station. Maybe some of the smaller villages where chosen because they were staff's birthplaces, or were they had met their wives, (or married them...Gretna?). Maybe there was a baotman in the office that day. He might have suggested Fenny because to him it wasn't Fenny Stratford, just Fenny. Maybe someone from Harland and Woolf called in at the Offices, they built many of the boats so mabybe out of courtesy they were allowed to have a go. Their parent company was in Belfast, so that one goes into the hat for consideration. Some of the London Underground associations eg Angel, might actually be where staff lived and commuted from? Angel/ The Angel is recognised in the London Plan as one of 35 major centres in Greater London, and is therefore more than an Underground station named after a pub (such as the Elephant and Castle) Amongst the mis-spelled names is Cambourne which should presumably be Camborne. The list is so eclectic I fancy the view that names were thrown in a hat by everyone in the office, maybe boat captains, the boat builders themselves.... It is a good a theory as any other...

Or the hedge...

Confused.com? Did you intend to write motors Cyprus and Elm @ 70'6" and the buttys CEDAR and Ash @ 71' 6"? There are horrendous howlers in Gladwin and Whites book, and the number of Erewash boats is just one. I never suggested it was correct in every detail, but until this discussion I had never heard any other length quoted for Erewash boats other than 69' and I am sure I recollect Sam Horne who used to run Ash, referred to it as 69' If Yarwoods Yard list was correct and the buttys were 71' 6", then they were in the range of measured lengths for GUCC Town and Stars, ie if they were shorter than some then it is only by 1" or so and they may well be longer than some other GUCC Stars and Towns. (but although I believe there were same Stars gauged at 71' 7", 71' 6" was the specified length of a Star Class, when ordered, so Yarwood's records show the buttys to be exactly the same length that the GUCC Stars were intended to be) This makes a nonsense of the idea that they were built short to work breasted through Bishop's Meadow lock, because at 71' 6" they would still have to lock through singly. Yet everyone says that they have a very noticeable short plate in each side? If the full length side plates are standard length on both Small Northwhich boats and Cedar?? and Ash, and the boats are within an inch or so of each other, there can be no short plate on the ECC boats. Since The Yarwoods Stars were built the same year as the ECC boats, one assumes they were using standard plates for the sides of both boats and merely cut down one plate each side for the ECC boats. I can't get two contradictory "Facts" to live happily side by side. Or am I missing something? How can there be a short plate, noticable by eye, yet only be an inch shorter at best than a Northwhich Star? If there is a short plate, and this is clearly visible, by eye, then I suggest the Erewash buttys have to be more than an inch or so shorter than the Small northwich boats and certainly cannot be the same length. If this is the case Yarwoods Yard list and its recorded lengths for Cedar?? and Ash (71' 6") means nothing, and it also must join the list of written records not bearing scrutiny.

English canals part III: Boats and Boatmen D.D. Gladwin and J.M, White Quote "Erewash Canal carrying company" boats where slightly different to the standard Grand Union boats, being 69' overall......only six of the class were built" That would have been where I read it, well before the internet, my copy is 1969....

Just to add, that on the Barrel run, the boats did not have cross planks in place, and this was probably less damaging to the composite pair. Cracking at the ends of the knees, near the keelson is a fault with the steel town boats because any flexing if the sides and bottoms is concentrated on the inch or so of bottom between the knee end and the keelson. loading long steel bars, where the cross planks all had to be out shows just how far the sides can come in under these conditions. The Notch in one end of the cross plank is to lever the sides out to get the plank back in. (ie plain end of cross plank is put in it's socket first and the end with the notch cut in it is then resting on the opposite gunwhale. ( A crowbar in the notch used used against the inside of the Gunwhale to force the sides out.) I am told that the sides could come in as much as six inches when carrying a full load of long steel. I find this hard to believe, but that's what the boaters said. If true it is little wonder the knee ends went on the steel boats! The Barrel run was one of the few loads where the boats used to travel with the Cross planks out. My pictures of Arcus and Actis where most likely taken in the summer/Autumn 1972.

Where would I have read the Erewash boats were about 69'? Ash was certainly shorter than 71' 6". Sam Horne always had to load his Erewash butty much deeper to carry the same load as a Star class, and that only makes sense if it was shorter. Sam told me many times he used to load until the steel sides were in the water and only the wood of the gunwhales showed, and when towed the bow wave used to run up the side sheets. His wife had a tin bath full of water on the cabin roof and moved it around to keep the boat trimmed level, because they were so short of "dry side".

If the names were transcribed from a hand written list Glossor ? Glossop seems most likely to me. Loosing the stroke from the R is easily done. If the list was dictated then Glossor could have been intended to be called Gloucester.... Either is possible in my mind. Gloster does not appear to be a proper name of a town Anyway. Gloster is sometimes used as a name for some Gloucester based companies, such a Gloucester Aircraft Company which renamed itself Gloster Aircraft company because foreign customers where having problems with the proper spelling. (Yes I know There is a Gloster in Mississippi) I will throw in Grimsby? (not that it is a Town class) but just because it purports to be a town and it isn't (technically) There is a town called Great Grimsby and a village called Little Grimsby. Although the Great is frequently omitted it is/ was the correct name of the town. Although the name has come and gone, and reappeared a few times, at the time the Josher butty was named it should surely have been Great Grimsby!

What is the story on Glossor/ Glossop?

Someone will I expect give the exact length of the Erewash boats, Cedar, Ash and the like

As it were...We knew it as Cooper's Copyright Mike Fincher

I have many happy memories of the Riser, Particularly Dolly Dakin dancing to Jim Gilson's Piano playing, (Land lord at the time)with the whole floor in the back room bouncing up and down, and drinks falling off the tables. The hearth of the blazing coal fire moving with the beat.... Ayno and Ayr Loaded with piles, moored below the lock... .One of Jim's favourites was a rewording of an old song (Are you lonesome tonight? Are your Corsets too tight? Are your stockings all laddered and worn? and your knickers all tattered and torn? Is your Hair falling out? Are you're crippled with gout? ..... ..... It's no wonder you're lonesome tonight!) Jim used to have a cig on his lip most of the time, but there was a painting above the piano of a lady, and he had made a hole in her mouth where he also used to rest his fag. I remember Alec Purcell having two bottles of Guiness off everyone on the Union pair, he was skippering at the time, and him telling me how he had been born "at the bottom of Smethwick in 1897" or was it 1892??. All the bottles were lined up on his table.... I counted at least 24! I remember being Drunk and disorderly in a 48 hour drinking session with Bilster and Angel tied below the lock for the Queens Jubilee (1977??). I remember unseating the top gates of the lock and being stuck with the horse boat unable to get through, so that evenings trip was spent above the lock until it got sorted with shearlegs the next day! I remember Sunday's learning from Irish Pete, who crewed with us on Ben Kiblrech, the delights of drinking Worthington's White Shields on a empty stomach for Sunday Lunch......Bill and Kath were just locals in the early days..... Good pub, with proper games, Dominoes, shut the box... etc...although there was a move to playing Boules outside, all very well until the short pound flooded and water ran across the front of the pub, (not infrequently when Foster's hire boats set out......)

I don't like the chain running down from the from Fender. Seems like a recipe for hanging the boat up in an emptying loch. How common was a chain like this?

Bilster has a hook in some photograhs

When I was working Horses in the seventies, fishermen , their tackle and the refusal to lower their rods were the biggest problem....We had one horse that had bben whipped in a previous life, and any sign of a fishing rod in the air spooked him. We had many "bolts" and runaways because of unhelpful fishermen. Moored cruisers weren't too much trouble, If the roof was very cluttered we sometime jumped onto roof and walked length of cabin, holding the rope up.......