Arnot

What Victron inverter are you installing? This may have an impact on how you wire the earths... Regards Arnot

That's a pretty good reason but remember they will have to be changed eventually! I don't really follw the logic here, If you don't need a second battery (and I really don't think you do) however small the cost relative to the overall buid it is still wasted money. A word of advice... I help a lot of people with new builds and in almost overy case they underestimate the cost of fitting out (including electrics) and find themselves running out of cash towards the end and having to make economies that impact on the project disproportionately. How about seeing if you can bring it in under budget? The cost of a 135Ah AGM would buy mooring ropes, mooring spikes, piling hooks, a couple of boat poles and still leave you with change! Your concern is reasonable but you are probably being a bit over ambitious on the charger spec. I don't actually agree that the minimum spec of the charger has to be 25%. This would undoubtedly give you the fastest possible charging but remember that when you are cruising your engine will be giving a good rate of charge anyway. Manufacturers of AGM's tend to suggest that the charging system should be 25% of capacity but their advice, however well meant, doesn't usually factor in engine charging. They tend to be thinking in terms of UPS applications where the charger is the only means of replenishment. Also remember that even though you have a 1185Ah domestic bank, you should not be totally flattening it. How about you stick to the charger sums but base them on 50% of the domestic battery capacity? This would probably be adequate. I am assuming that you are going to have an inverter... If this is so then going for one of the modern inverter charger combi units should give sufficient charging capacity as well as simplifying the installation and operation of the mains electrical system. Both Mastervolt and Victron do combi's that will charge at 200A (although 120A may well be enough in practice) and can be programmed and installed to optimum effect. The more I think about your installation the more I think that a SmartBank would be a good idea, Gibbo assures you that it will do the job and if he doesn't know then Dog help us. As well as doing the paralleling bit it will allow you to actually see what the battery state of charge is (plus a few other bits of useful information). Most people who decide to live aboard struggle with undestanding and controlling battery capacity in the first year or so tending to veer towards ever neurotic or over blase. A smartguage will allow you to quickly get a feel for how much power you are using and how long you need to run your engine to replenish it. Regards Arnot

Possibly but possibly not, the APC (FV432) had the K60 engine fitted, it was a baby version of the Chieftain's L60 and even more unreliable... I really remember the FV434 which was the REME version with the jib and platform at the back. The jib was intended for the removal of power packs but doubled as an apple harvester when fitted with a bit of camo netting. Anyway there seem to be about ten of them lying about in various states of damage. If you know anyone who could use them at more or less scrap value, let me know quickly, they are going to be melted down shortly. Thinking about it it did seem reminiscent of the U6. Regards Arnot

I went and had a look but they are marked K60 although this might be the engine type since they were from APC's originally. They seemed to be a rather longer than normal version of the CAV Axial starter and were about 6" in diameter but I couldn't get close enough to measure them. They also had a very sophisticated silver plated connection system and probably cost the MOD abut £50k originally. Regards Arnot

If the engine is the one I thnk it is - Beta 43? - then the alternators fitted are pretty damn good. Just improve the cable from the 175A alternator direct to the domestic bank and leave the charging at that. You could combine the outputs but I honestly think that the cost and complexity will not be justified by the marginal improvement in charging time. Despite this, if you do want to go ahead with this one, I wouldn't bother with the Sterling. The SmartBank can easily cope and is far better suited to the application. I definitely think you could do with a reconsider of the batteries. A 135Ah AGM for the starter is a lot larger than is necessary unless I have my engine guess a really long way out. I takes typically about 0.2Ah fo start a small diesel and the 50A alternator could replace this in minutes. AGM's give a longer service life and usually better starting current but it's debatable if the benefit is cost effective over a standard lorry battery. Taking it to a ridiculous extreme, the other day I did show someine that it was possible to start a narrow boat engine with a 1Ah battery about the size of two fag packets, it was warm though. Two of the AGM 135Ah batteries for the bow thruster is IMHO well over the top. Once you have got over the fun of playing with it, my experience of bow thrusters is that they are rarely used and even then only for a very short time. I did once monitor the current that one was taking and it was only about 100A, even if you use it 5 minutes a day to do pirouettes, this is still less than 10Ah of battery capacity. Perhaps a single and possibly smaller battery would do the job. Now the domestics, It looks as though you have specified semi traction batteries and at 1185Ah when connected for 12V this should give you all you need. Hope this helps Regards Arnot

Sounds pretty good to me... As far as I can see you have all bases covered and the way you intend to operate it should be fine. The comment I made on generators was more aimed at the portable plug in type, the built in ones. I am not familiar with the Kohler 7kVA unit and can't find any information on it, do you have a URL? Also I am not familiar with the Victron Quattro 12/3.5kw/120amp combi, I know of a 12/3000/120 and a 12/5000/200... It would probably be a good idea to use the battery sense feature on the Victron Combi to reduce charging times and have the unit set up using the VE Configure software once installed. The settings as they are shipped could almost certainly be improved. You might also want to consider a rather better battery bank. Given the amount you have allocated for the charging systems, six boggo leasure batteries seem a bit out of place. Traction cells would give better performance and despite the initial hit would cost less over time. Regards Arnot

There is a Prestolite A127 as well with internal fan. Not a nice device... Yours is the common or garden Lucas(oid) version whach can be swivelled 120 degrees (or 240 for that matter). It will also take the tractor reg mod. Arnot

It does! Regards Arnot

So do I and they work just fine, I have not had one fail in years... Go for it! Regards Arnot

Not really, it can't control what battery takes power or how much it takes. This is the myth that sells the product and those who propound the concept of paralling alternators accept. Unless you have a massive battery bank which is fairly flat it wont actually accept 180A for more than a minute or two and shortly after this the current demand would fall to less than 110A. If the battery bank would accept high currents for long periods then the answer is to fit a more appropriate alternator rather than trying to force the smaller pair to operate harder than they were designed to. Regards Arnot

Our local scrappy just bought about 200 scrap tank engines from the MOD and when I was last there had a load of the starter hanging about. I doubt they could be used as they were but they may well harvest useful spare parts such as armatures, solenoids and field windings. I can go and see if he still has them and what they are if this helps. Regards Arnot I am intigued here, what size of narrow boat are these fitted to? I seem to remember working on one from a big Paxman but thought it was an SP7, it had to be nearly 40 years ago though... Regards Arnot

I think that the winter morning thing is the achilles heel of the scheme but can't be bothered to wait six months to try it . I did toy with tinkering with the windings just out of interest but it would probably be futile. It seems a shame to ditch this starter; it's a bit of history in perfect condition and original to the engine. Anyway I will keep it in reserve for the moment and fit a BS5/12 I have lying about - keep it simple. Thanks for your thoughts, I needed a bit of common sense to curb my enquiring mind! Regards Arnot

It's actually a genuine pre war Bosch CAV version on a pre war engine. I didn't know they existed until I bought it either... The fuel pump is also Bosch CAV. From the dreaded Wiki - In 1926 CAV was bought by Lucas. In 1931, CAV in partnership with Robert Bosch Ltd., became CAV-Bosch Ltd and began making fuel injection pumps for the diesel industry and later fuel systems for aircraft. Lucas bought Bosch's interest out in 1937 and it became CAV Ltd in 1939. The engine was made in 1937 so it must have been one of the last of these. I was surprised the aux coils had enough waft as well but it managed about ten starts on the trot without a failure! Unfortunately the engine specs are now non existant (if for that matter they existed in the first place) so I can't go that route. As for torque testing I suspect it would be fairly crap but since the engine can be started by hand fairly easily it doesn't seem to need much. The solenoid is a different mounting from the normal BS5 or Bosch version, the contacts seem to be the same as the early CAV ones but the mounting is by a single 6mm stud rather than the usual two machine screws. Since this version doesn't seem to be available anyway I am probably on a fools errand but I will have another look at the starter today and see if the modern version would fit without butchering the comm end bracket. Regards Arnot

OK, I spent this afternoon playing with my boat for a change and thinking about how best to use the original 24V starter on the 12V system I intend to install. Yes I know that a 24V system would make more sense but I want to be able to demonstrate 12V equipment to customers... There is a reliable solution by using a Bosch relay made for just this purpose and fitted to Mercedes light commercials. The downside is that they are expensive and require quite complex heavy wiring which I wanted to avoid if possible. So... It occured to me that a 24V series wound motor (a Bosch - CAV BS524 in this case) should deliver enough mechanical power to turn a three cylinder vintage diesel even on 12V as long as the solenoid was changed. In an attempt to prove this, I removed the back cover of the starter and with it connected to 12V, operated the solenoid contacts manually. The upshot was that the starter worked albeit a bit more slowly and the engine started with no problems. What I can't decide or even find out is if this is a fluke based on my engine or if the older 24V CAV axial starters found on a lot of vintage engines will always behave this way. It's not a problem that comes up often but I have been asked about this sort of problem in the past and not been sure. Anyone with any input here? Nibble? Tim? Regards Arnot

I think there's a bit of an elephant in the room here... I fully accept that a lot of people find the idea of installing relays or adjusting alternators is way beyond their capabilities, that is why professional auto/boat electricians exist. In my experience, the reason for the option of wanting to connect a couple of wires and be done, even if it is more expensive - the Stirling way - is not quite the whole story, it's more about lack of trust and respect. The benefit of this way is that you only pay for the bits that you use, you know pretty much what it will cost and you can see the cooling fins, gold terminals and light display afterwards to justify it all.However, despite the marketing, there really isn't a pre-pack alternative to expertise. If on the other hand you employ a professional, you probably won't see much and possibly won't get much in the way of new flashy equipment, the real deal is usually very understated. What you should get is a solution to the problem based on years of experience allied to a measure of reliability and some good advice. The difficulty is that you will have to place your trust in their competence and you probably won't know quite what the cost is until the job is complete. This is because remedying one problem on a charging system often reveals another and any fault is only cured when it is proven by trial and testing. I often take an educated guess at the cost of a job in advance because I do appreciate that my customers need to budget and decide if the job is likley to be worth the expense, I am no different in this respect. However - I always warn that there is the possibility of additional work being required and if I can what the liklihood of this is. I have seen quite a few of the Stirling alternator to battery chargers over the years and removed almost all of them. In doing so the charging systems have become simpler, more effective, more stable and more reliable. In addition is has become possible to navigate the engine hole without being strangled by the nest of red copper vipers that once festooned it. In every case, the reason they were installed in the first place was along the lines of the above. Having said all this you must understand that I am not bitter, in fact in any given year I probably turn down about as much work as I actually take on and I really don't remember when last I didn't have a list of jobs waiting. I do however get a bit saddened and frustrated by achieving results for people reasonably cheaply after they have wasted a packet on snake oil solutions that just didn't cut it. A lot of installations I look at seem to be the outcome of a trolley dash at a chandlery installed by "my mate who's a sparky". In fairness, there is another reason for this. There are actually very few good auto electricians with experience of narrow boats and with the demise of apprenticeships and engineering training schemes there are fewer each year. I am easing into retirement and suspect others such as Gibbo and Nibble are doing the same. Modern auto electrics relies heavily on computerised diagnostics of digitially controlled systems and the subsequent replacement of any offending item with a new one. There is no real demand for the sort of old fashioned electrical engineering knowledge, craft and experience that is so essential when working on narrow boats. Sad but a reality... Regards Arnot PS As Red Adair once said "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

It comes under the general heading of "male jewellery for narrow boaters". It has purposful looking fins, glitzy gold terminals and a variety of multi coloured flashing lights. A lot of the benefits it claims are either illusory or can be better obtained with simple but good engineering. If you want a pretty and interesting engine hole with masses of copper spaghetti, it's just the job. If you want to support the struggling chandlery business, it's just the job. However if you want to charge your batteries quickly and effectively, there are (as Gibbo points out) a host of better ways. First make sure that your existing alternators (especially the 110A one) are optimally installed. For example if you have one of the popular modern engines then wiring the domestic alternator directly to the domestic batteries with a decent size of cable thus bypassing the original engine harness and connection stud will help a lot. Then, if you really want to soup it up, fit a battery sensed regulator system. As Sterling themselves state on their site "The Digital Advanced Alternator Regulator offers the best low cost technical solution to increase the output performance of your alternator" and for "The Digital Advanced Alternator Regulator" you can read "battery sensed regulator" to all intents and purposes. A generator and combi is probably not a good way to go, as you acknowledge it adds complexity as well as this is increases cost and lowers reliability. Combi's are great as long as you have a shore line and better yet if the boat is left unused for lengthy periods but if you have to power them from a generator is is not always very successful and unless you have a massive battery and combi, not as quick to charge the batteries. Hope this helps, Regards Arnot

Just to put that in narrow boat perspective it's the same power as 3300 Ah at 12 volts! Nor so I... You might stand a chance with a fairish traction battery setup (at least 1200 Ah), a really well designed and set up large engine driven 12v alternator and multiple inverters with a mains support function like the Mastervolt system. Regards Arnot

Yes you can run two A127 alternators in parallel connected to a single battery and could probably get away with a single warning light but it would need to be about double the wattage to give the same energisation current to each alternator. I would suggest that two warning lights would be a better bet however, for the maginal extra cost and complexity the information would be well worth it. I see that in a later post you are connecting the alternator to the iso, it would be better to connect direct to the batteries, less chance of a control loop error. I have to say that my experience is that actually paralleling two alternators rarely give a significant benefit. If an alternator charging system is in current limit (the equivalent of bulk on a battery charger) it is usually the symptom of other problems such as insufficient speed or an alternator that is really just too small for the job. Mods such as the tractor reg can give higher outputs from smaller alternators but this is not without cost. When worked harder for extended periods of time alternators get very hot and this inevitably reduces their operating life span. Regards Arnot Edited for the ususal lysdexia...

It won't with the A127's even with the Tractor reg mod. It's mainly with the clever slitty eyed jobbies that this problem occurs, the warning light is electronically controlled rather than just picking up off a tri-diode. Regards Arnot

It sounds like the battery temperature sensor isn't working properly. You can check by removing it from the battery and dipping it in a mug of hot water then into a mug of cold (iced) water to see if it controls the voltage and that the results are in line with the graph shown in the instructions. If it isn't, try replacing it. Regards Arnot

Given that one of the objects of the exercise is to retain originality, my take would be to keep the dynamo and regulator system if possible. From what you say, as long as you do a reasonable amount of cruising it should provide sufficient power if it’s working properly. I would suggest you consider a small solar panel to keep the battery topped up, perhaps in the order of 15 to 25 watts. It should be possible to have them checked out but given that the auto electrical industry has almost forgotten dynamos and the complexity of properly testing them it might be difficult. My suggestion would be to install the dynamo and regulator, wire them up and then have them tested and set up in-situ. You can do some preliminary checks on the dynamo by just spinning the pulley to see if the bearings are noisy and removing the brushes to check that they and the commutator are not badly worn. As for fitting an alternator there are a lot of options but it is “sufficient unto the day…” Hope this helps... Regards Arnot

Thanks for that, I'm glad I was able to help. Actually I see quite a few heating systems that are installed in a way that doesn't promote self bleeding and it often causes problems of noise and poor operation. Irritatingly this is often intermittent in nature and sods law kicks in when the engineer calls and it all works just fine. One relatively simple wheeze is to take a tee off the highest un-bled point and run a small bore pipe back to the header tank, large enough to allow a little air to escape but small enough to restrict large quantities of coolant. Perhaps this would work for you? How about the noise now? These pumps do tend to be a bit noisy but the electric car speed control seems to work. Regards Arnot

You probaly don't need to relocate the pump permanently, what I suggested was temporarily lowering it to prove the point. Looking at the piccies, you might be able to rework the piping so that the pipes from the pump to the calorifier run straight across from one to the other with a slight bow upwards and tee the header tank feed into the higher of the two, then tee downwards to the heating loop. the slight bow upwards will tend to allow any collected air to return to the header tank. As a matter of interest, what happened to the Eberspacher? Regards Arnot

Unfortunatley not an assumption it is safe to make... The header tank is only one of the high points in your system Any air in the system dissolved or just held in suspension by the turbulence created by the pump will be reasonably evenly distributed around the system. As soon as the pump stops, it will rise to the nearest high point and in your system one of the obvious ones is the pump piping. If there is enough air in this loop the pump will just not work when re-started but if there is only a small amount then the air will be redistributed round the system once more with all the noise that it creates wilst rushing round the sharp bends and through the pump impeller. Why not just try dropping the pump down and see what happens? Regards Arnot

A friend of mine who dosn't understand fishing either justifies this by saying that fishing ought to be a real kick in the ego, who would get excited about pitting their wits against a fish? Having said this, after the last government I am now quite used to a diet of poo! Happy days... Regards Arnot