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agg221

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Everything posted by agg221

  1. Is Turner's open tomorrow? Do they have coal and kindling (I believe they have gas and a shop so it's possible)? If so it might be the easier option while you are there. Alec
  2. You are making the assumption that it was removed by someone with a clue, who actually had a use for it, rather than just thinking it was 'valuable'. I suggest from previous experience that this is not always the case... Alec
  3. That is a really interesting thought, for a man who has on several occasions manually baled the bottom of the boat by reaching under the engine bed with a sponge. When it's frozen outside it is not much warmer just inside the hull and this always seems to happen in winter! Alec
  4. I too will be interested to hear how The Navigation is. We had a very pleasant lunch at The Bridge in Brewood in 2022 on the way back from the BCN Challenge and also enjoyed an excellent (although more upmarket) meal at The Staffordshire Grill in the centre of town, but have not yet tried The Navigation. Bad luck on the cold - I am still trying to shift a persistent cough which I would rather get rid of before going boating so I can empathise. At least you can now pootle back gently. Did you get another look at the boats at Industry on the way by? Alec
  5. To reiterate the point made by other posters above, some water running back down the hose when you turn the pump off is quite normal. The pump can only work so far down - expect a bit of water to be left after the pump has removed all it can, say half an inch. The last bit that the pump has pulled up is still in the tube which can't push air so the water sits there just above the impeller and when the pump is switched off it runs back out. If you want to get it truly dry then you need to do the last bit with a sponge and bucket (really dry will need rags or nappies). The good news is that this is suggesting there is not too much wrong and the water is not too deep. If you follow the other points made above through you should get there. Water can look a lot worse than it is - I noticed water in the bilge of our boat last time I visited, spread across the back third of the boat. In practice, this turned out to be about 5 litres in total. It is still annoying. A photo of the manual pump and a summary of the way in which it is not working would also be useful (ie is it seized, works freely but doesn't pump, feels really slack as you pump it etc) as that would be a handy last resort to have working. I have one for this reason. Alec
  6. Hi Jason, Aware this may be a somewhat stressful time - finding that none of the bilge pumps are working suggests you may have water onboard and want it out, and when that isn't happening it is never good (been there, done that). The odds of someone on this forum having exactly the same boat are limited, and even if they did, bear in mind that on a 45yr old boat the odds of it having been changed from how it was built are high, so it is usually a case of systematic fault-finding, rather than a simple answer. For this reason, you are likely to get asked lots of questions. It may not be immediately obvious why you are being asked certain things, but it is worth going with it and answering - they will be someone following a train of thought to try and help you. Also, you have figured how to post photos to the forum - this is excellent as they show so much more than words can. Jen has already made a good start. I will throw in a few more: 1. I can see lights on your panel. That means power is getting to the panel. Bilge pumps however may not be running off the same battery as everything else. As Jen mentions, they are sometimes configured to run when the boat has been left and the main panel turned off. That means they may be wired to the starter battery and then through the panel. The idea is that the pumps will run on the float switch even when the main battery isolator is turned off. It can be confusing, because it looks like the panel is working but the bilge pumps won't, which appears to be your situation. 2. Can you trace the wires from bilge pump directly to a battery? If so, is there a fuse in the loop? Is it the leisure battery or the starter battery? If it is the starter battery, is it still charged or has it run flat (ie will the boat engine start off it)? You could get the symptoms you describe if the starter battery is completely flat but the leisure battery is still charged. If so, you could temporarily run the bilge pump off the leisure battery. 3. I concur with Nigel and Jen that a multimeter is a pretty important piece of kit to have, but would add that making up some extension leads with crocodile clips for it is also very worthwhile for fault tracing, but for now, if you don't have one, what happens if you take each of the bilge pumps in turn and connect them directly over a known charged battery? I agree with Nigel that the float switches fail, but usually they fail in the 'off' position so the pump fails to turn on. It would be unusual for them to fail in the 'on' position and burn out the pump. The pump may well have two pairs of wires - a pair that go to and from the battery and the other pair to and from a bypass switch (on the panel). The idea is that the pump is permanently connected but will switch on and off automatically on the float switch or can be manually started by connecting the other pair of wires. With the main wires connected across the battery, If you either manually rock the float switch which Nigel has already described or touch the other pair of wires together, does it start up? 4. Photos of the electric pumps would be useful. 5. A photo of the hand pump would be useful. Alec
  7. That would have been quite good to see. Song of the Waterways is a Les Allen that was acquired through a Section 8 order and nobody seems to know its earlier history, but it has been a well loved boat from Jeff to Anton to the current owner, who occasionally frequents this site. Sorry Haggis - will stop derailing your thread now! Alec
  8. This was me steering it down there (current owner is sat on the cabin top) back in October: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2624035521068163&set=gm.6859427404141463&type=3 Since Jeff had it, Song now has a Lister JP2 fitted so we tend to go boating together on the grounds that whoever breaks down the other one can tow it. So far that has been us being towed! We went up the Llangollen together in October at half term and then took Song down to Stretton to have some new cloths fitted. There are often some interesting boats about at Stretton (Industry Narrowboats) including Caggy quite recently. Alec
  9. Was it definitely Coronation you saw, rather than Song of the Waterways (both formerly belonged to the late Jeff Dennison)? The latter is definitely currently at Stretton just north of Brewood so if Coronation is also in the vicinity that would be quite a coincidence. Alec
  10. 5mm wall thickness would be safer... Alec
  11. I wondered whether the two operations could be separated out - essentially a pugging operation to prepare material which is fed directly in, followed by compaction. I agree that vibration may not be the most appropriate compaction method but couldn't think of an alternative piece of modern equipment that would replicate pairs of navvies' boots! Alec
  12. I think we are somewhat at cross-purposes here. I think you are still considering the OP's proposition of a fuel-free narrowboat, which I think everyone is in agreement is not achievable. The thread has moved on to consider the art of the possible - how much can you reduce energy input requirements, using what approaches and, for each individual approach, how much would that reduce energy requirements and what would it cost? This is effectively the watered-down question of 'how close to a fuel-free narrowboat can you currently get?' In this case, I presume a dedicated genset would be used, with solar when available, and hook-ups in marinas or a permanent mooring as a preferred option when available. Although there are disparaging comments that a thought exercise such as this is effectively a waste of time, I see it as useful as it defines what is currently possible and what the potential impact of emerging technologies will be. Alec
  13. Recognising that this thread has drifted away from the OP's narrowboat question on to boat insulation in general, so @Willonaboat will exceed the figures calculated below, this is actually a very simple calculation to answer: Assume a cabin volume of 15x2x2m for a narrowboat, ie 60m3 Assume 'normal' air with a specific heat capacity of 1.012J/g-1K-1 Assume sea level air density of 1.204kg/m3 at 20degC Assume you are using the air exchange system to replace standard vents Assume you are heating the inside air to 20degC and the outside air is 0degC Assume you are aiming for the recommended minimum of 0.35 air changes per hour Assume you achieve 'real world' efficiency of 80% on the heat exchanger system (total efficiency) The boat contains 60x1.204=72kg of air The energy required to raise its temperature from outside to indoor temperature is 72x20x1.012=1.5kJ=0.41kWh The energy recovered from a full air change by the recovery system is therefore 0.41x0.8=0.33kWh The energy recovered per day is 0.33x0.35x24=2.7kWh These figures are of course also compared against your worst case generation efficiency of 10%. In practice, as I am sure you know, if you are aiming for efficient electrical generation you would use a dedicated system, and you would also recover the thermal energy to achieve heating and hot water, but it still works, on a narrowboat, with the least efficient charging system possible. You can disregard other sources of loss, since this is an independent source of loss, ie you will need the same additional heat input to replace conductive losses irrespective of the venting system. Alec
  14. I don't think the problem is so much the digging of deep trenches as putting people down them. I can't help wondering whether if the chamber was suitably scaffolded it would be possible to run an excavator with a long reach bucket along the lock to dig out a trench down to the voids and then to backfill and ram puddle in with a modified vibrating poker with a flat plate on the end? I suspect this will remain a completely hypothetical approach though. Alec
  15. This is true, but it affects rate of heat transfer, rather than absolute temperature differential (if you put a hot object and a cold object either side of a sheet of material in a sealed, highly insulated box the rate of heat transfer across the sheet will start off higher and gradually fall as they get closer in temperature, but will eventually equalise). You can address this practically by having larger heat transfer surfaces, thinner walls, higher conductivity materials and longer residence time. Thin aluminium sheet deals with two of these and a larger unit deals with a third. Longer residence time is reasonably achievable when you only need small numbers of air changes in a relatively small volume such as a boat interior. There are some very exotic solutions based on laminar flow channels that can achieve extremely high efficiency heat transfer - known as printed shim or compact heat exchangers. If you look these up today you will find that the thermal transfer rates are fantastic in an extremely small volume. However, you will also notice that they are made in high temperature materials with very high service temperature and pressure ratings quoted. This is for several reasons, most notably that the manufacturing process does not work for aluminium. This has now been addressed (https://uspto.report/patent/app/20210220943) so this is an emerging technology to look out for over the next five years or so. More broadly than your original point Tony, but with reference to other posts above, I mention this not because I think anyone currently building a boat should be hanging on and waiting for this technology to become commercially available but because it addresses the point that technologies originated in one industry sector can often 'unblock' the development of another technology in a different sector. There are a number of posts in this thread along the lines of 'it will never work' but living in a world of commercial research and development, I rather disagree with that mindset and would point out that if everyone took the view that because something has not been done it cannot be done then we would never develop anything new. Alec
  16. We have a similar level of appliances. We do charge phones but only whilst the engine is running and I tend to have the fridge turned off if the engine is not running and it is down to temperature - generally get things out of it before mooring up for the evening. We do not have any solar at present. I have switched all lights to LED and most of them are ultra-low energy ones where it is not a working area. They are also grouped so that I can switch off most of them - often there are only a couple of lights on. We run off two small lead acid leisure batteries and have not seen them dip on the monitor below 12.3V. They are now around 3yrs old. There is also a monster starter battery and the bilge pump is connected to that, but apart from periodically testing it, it never runs. I have threatened to go zero-electric. I have added the hand start back on to the engine and now pretty much only use that. When I am on the boat on my own I often use oil lamps and if I add a cool box under the galley floor that will deal with the fridge. I have threatened to add a 5l header tank and a semi-rotary pump to deal with water, but that has been vetoed and I would have full on mutiny from the crew if I removed the phone charger! Alec
  17. Your assumption is correct for a single stage, however what you actually have a is a cross-flow heat exchanger where the incoming air gets progressively warmer on the way in as it meets the outgoing air which is also progressively warmer as it gets closer to the inside (and colder as it goes outwards). Imagine breaking it down into stages. Single stage: 0C in meets 20C out gives 10C Three stages: 0C in meets 10C out gives 5C 5C in meets 15C out gives 10C 10C in meets 20C out gives 15C Seven stages: 0C in meets 5C gives 2.5C 2.5C in meets 7.5C out gives 5C 5C in meets 10C out gives 7.5C 7.5C in meets 12.5C out gives 10C 10C in meets 15C out gives 12.5C 12.5C in meets 17.5C out gives 15C 15C in meets 20C out gives 17.5C Add more stages and you get a progressively higher temperature. It takes more space and costs more due to complexity, and a bit more energy to address the back pressure, but the temperature goes up. I can't help with the specifics of a published 90% efficiency as I haven't looked into this for over a decade, but the principle is sound. The main difference then seemed to be the efficiency limit of active (fan assisted) vs passive systems, for a given size. The advantage of the latter is obvious - they keep working if the battery fails - but the efficiency does (or at least did) top out at a lower percentage. They were mainly built from thin aluminium sheet which is cheap, lightweight and easy to braze up as it is pre-clad. This is the same way car heat exchangers are built. Alec
  18. I suggest you review the principles around marginal gain theory as currently expressed, which relates to changes that individually result in under 1% improvement. The term which correctly applies in the original context of improved thermal performance would be incremental gains. An incremental gain may be marginal (in the order of up to 1%) or may be larger. In this specific instance, the gains achieved by reducing thermal losses through heat recovery and through improved focus on thermal performance as I outlined would individually be significantly greater than 1%. Cumulatively, compared to a 'standard' hull and fit-out it is likely that approaching 50% improvement in U-value could be achieved (based on the combination of improved thermal performance materials, reduced window area and increased layer thickness), but I am not inclined to calculate it precisely. That would result in approximately 30% reduction in heat input requirements. If the objective was to go 'fuel free' it would not be reached, but if the objective was to improve air quality then it would have an impact. Fundamentally, incremental improvements are about the largest changes that can be achieved by an individual (in principle they can invent something fundamentally new, but that is unlikely and would not be advisable to rely on). Step changes are rare (e.g. transition from horse to internal combustion engine, solar panels becoming available for electricity generation etc). If you are going to design something practical, you cannot rely on future step changes so the best you can achieve is the cumulative effect of all available incremental gains. In a heavily regulated industry such as construction, achieving the current requirements for U value is a compromise between space and cost, so available gains are now largely marginal. Boats are not currently so regulated so there are still larger gains to be had. Is it worth it? Commercially, no, financially, no, but as a matter of personal preference, maybe. Your 'ludicrous' is a personal opinion rather than a matter of fact. Alec
  19. I anticipate that the gains would be greater than 1% and therefore not marginal, but unless I or someone else can be bothered to run the calculation I can't tell you exactly what they will be. However, the greater point is about the value of incremental gains if you cannot achieve full outcomes. For example, I could equally argue there is no point building a hybrid electric boat as you still need the generator, so might as well stick with direct diesel propulsion... Alec
  20. Whilst I agree with your conclusion that the fundamental problem on an electric narrowboat is 'energy demand exceeding renewable energy supply' (I would add, with any currently available technology), there are certain aspects where I feel your choice of words reveals preconceptions that may be worth reconsidering. Specifically the term 'ludicrously expensive' is highly subjective and 'marginal gains' can be challenged (marginal gains generally refers to 1%, whereas aerogel blanket offers a 30% improvement over PIR). The same terms could be applied to the construction of a hybrid electric boat with a Schilling rudder when compared to a standard flat bladed rudder and a conventional diesel propulsion system. Everyone makes their own choices as to how to spend their money. One of the things about canal boats is that, being negligibly regulated, they do make excellent test-beds. Sometimes the test fails, sometimes it is a huge success and is emulated. Mostly these are privately funded, which limits the scale of the aspiration. Some have a level of public funding from time to time (such as the hydrogen powered demonstrator) which allows something more radical to be trialled. One of the very early hybrid boats (Waterscape) was funded by BW... What I think generally does work is incremental gains (not necessarily marginal gains) where the whole objective may not be achieved but steps are taken towards it. A fuel-free boat is not feasible, but how much can you reduce energy requirements? If I could be bothered I would run the U-value calculations based on a conventional steel shell (4mm) at 15m long for the cabin, with 25mm of PIR insulation with relatively large windows vs. a GRP cabin with 10off 8" double-glazed portholes and 75mm of aerogel insulation, which is about the maximum I could probably get in, with 10mm of plywood. I would assume this applies to all surfaces and I would assume the use of a heat recovery system in each case. I would set it for a 15degC internal average temperature (which would in practice vary along the boat) and an external temperature of -5degC which would be averaging the minimum possible air temperature and the relatively stable minimum water temperature, assuming ratios of area for each. This would allow the calculation of energy input requirement in kW to maintain the temperature (subtracting 0.15kW for the occupant). The purpose would be to determine the difference between the two scenarios so see how much of an energy saving could be achieved, which could be converted into litres of diesel for a handy comparator. But instead I will continue trying to write this really difficult job application form! Alec
  21. In that case I think I would go straight down the SU and then check the weather. If set fair then down the S&W and the Severn; if not then up the 21 and through Birmingham (another vote for the old main line as it is more interesting and not really slower). If you have some time in hand then there is always the Black Country Museum en-route. If planning on the Severn, I would re-check the weather when nearing the Stourbridge as it would still be better to divert that way than to get stuck at Stourport. If the weather is still fine at that point then you will get through before any level changes take effect. Opinion is based on the experience of having twice had to alter routes due to sudden changes on the Severn. Mind you, having once done Tardebigge in absolutely torrential rain I am not sure that was much better! Alec
  22. No problem - hope the soup was good! I rather like Market Drayton as an overnight mooring. It's a pleasant little town with a three convenient supermarkets all in walking distance (we tend to go to the Chinese restaurant in the centre too). Alec
  23. Are you planning on making the trip in one go, or in a series of hops? If hops, are you going for towpath mooring in between (weekending) or are you going for more formal breaks en-route, e.g. stopping for a month at a marina? The plan has quite a bearing on which routes will work best. Alec
  24. If you are heading up towards Market Drayton then do wave to our boat as you pass - we won't be on it but I am sure it will appreciate it. It's in the linear moorings just after Betton Wood (the wooded slight cutting) - the anonymous, very low, short grey boat with an odd-looking bow and a short tug deck. Would be good to know if it still looks OK (always wonder about that) but we will be finding out for ourselves next week. It should be, but there was a bit of water in the bilge for some reason last time I was there which is never a good sign! Alec
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