aracer

edited for accuracy

Hmm, I was hoping for replies from somebody who actually knew - it seems most are assuming the same rules apply as for car parking when as I pointed out that quite clearly isn't the case. There is specific legislation relating to car parking which allows councils to issue penalty notices which are legally enforceable. In the absence of any such specific legislation relating to boats then at most there would simply be a breach of contract which wouldn't be legally enforceable in anything like the same way. I note that whilst private car parks can enforce breaches of contract through the courts there is also specific legislation to help them which wouldn't apply to boats - one issue which springs to mind here is that only the person who moors the boat can possibly be in breach of any contract (in the same way that it is the driver not the owner liable for parking charges), but in the case of car parking there is specific legislation which allows the parking companies to force the registered keeper to provide details of the driver which doesn't exist for boats. Just cause on what basis exactly? Data protection law is quite strict and specific about when details can be passed on and in the absence of specific legislation I'm not sure a breach of contract is just cause. They are - however I am interested in the legality of any action they might take if you fail to pay. I have a suspicion that they might just slap on a penalty charge notice as used for cars, which would quite clearly not be legally enforceable. Thanks to Alan for providing the details of the conditions showing that isn't the case. I did wonder but hadn't been bothered to check the terms (sorry!)

I know that if you park in a council car park and don't pay for a ticket you can be given a penalty charge notice which is legally enforceable and you can't ignore. However if you moor your boat up on a river next to the council car park where there are signs advising you to pay for mooring using the same P&D machines as used for the car park, what is the legal situation if you are issued with a ticket? Is such a ticket in any way legally enforceable (it's certainly not a penalty charge notice)? If you ignore it what would happen? Is a local council entitled to ask for details of a boat owner from the CRT and is it a breach of data protection rules if the CRT supplies details to the council? Does a council employee have any rights to place a notice on a moored boat, noting that they would have to trespass in order to do so? #askingforafriend

You may have a slightly different definition of "good" to me. I fit your proposed target market - my boat has a second cabin with bunks, I definitely wouldn't have bought that.

Not an average nb maybe, but there does seem to be an average well deck (using the mode definition of average) which looks much like in the pic there - that's about how much space mine has and it seems fairly typical for a standard nb based on those I looked at - that being the only one of your pics showing the sort of thing I saw for sale - I don't think I saw any like the other pics (I wasn't looking at wbs). 4 would be comfortable in mine, I think I could fit 6 at a squeeze (though I don't have a storage box at the front like that does). I haven't had enough adults on board in daytime to try yet, but I have had 2 adults, 2 kids up there along with a (non motorised) bike and a unicycle! It certainly doesn't seem that weight ought to be an issue on that basis - my water tank is also under there, and that holds over 500kg of water. Except that hiring twice a month is cheaper than owning a car, so you should be avoiding owning a car for financial reasons! It's just that the costs of ownership are more hidden so you're not counting them directly against the work. Especially the case if a van is suitable - I checked the nearest obvious rental place to me and I can hire a small van all day tomorrow for £30. That doesn't seem such a huge chunk of the money, and it's way more convenient than either shuttling a car or having to travel to your brother's to pick it up. The only obvious benefit of what you propose is for your brother if he needs a car.

They are on my boat! Like a lot of electrical stuff which is rated for much higher voltages they don't care that the voltage of the stuff in them is lower - all that matters is the current rating and I can think of various other things rated at 240V which are routinely used in lower voltage applications. Neither can I see how a switch is an issue, again current rating dependent - some of my 2A ones are switched. I'd prefer to have 5A ones for a couple of applications, but then I'd need to uprate the wiring for that to be useful and having made an attempt at removing panelling to get access I've decided to leave that for now (though I might just try pulling new runs through the existing space). I get the theoretical issue about plugging into 240V AC, but I can't recall ever seeing such a socket anywhere and I can't imagine why any of my 3 pin 12V plugs would leave the boat. Anyway, if those aren't 12V sockets, what was Loddon referring to?

As I mentioned, it is possible to get the same level of security with a private sale, but it's more hassle. Meanwhile if you're dealing with a fraudulent seller then at least in the second case I can certainly see potential issues, which are avoided when using a broker - the dealer acts as escrow for the boat as well as the money. There's no more risk of buying a non existent boat with a broker than with a private seller that I can see - the risk is much the same in either case. Of course it all depends - the account I paid into was clearly a separate client account, which is how things should be done properly (I know some brokers don't do it properly, I'm referring to those who do - proper legal documents for my sale which I read very carefully several times, separate client account just as with a house sale or will settlement, both of which I've dealt with complicated versions of involving lots of discussion with solicitors, where the marginal amounts involved we were arguing over were more than my boat cost - even more than yours in one case!) I understand your perspective and it's a perfectly valid one - no brokers don't add much value to the sale process, in that respect they're like estate agent and conveyancer as I suggested (and I have sold houses privately without involving either of those, including one which there is still an overage for more than my boat cost, which is currently being renegotiated!) But most boat purchases will be through a broker simply because that's where they're for sale.

Quite a sweeping statement - mine are old fashioned round pin mains sockets, which seem to be the standard for use on boats, nothing at all wrong with those for connection just as permanent as with a 13A socket. What do you think the problem with them is? I can think of various alternative 12V sockets which I might choose instead if doing a new install, some of which are far superior to anything mentioned on here. Meanwhile you're suggesting USB sockets as the gold standard? ? Admittedly having been prompted to do an audit since my last reply, almost everything 12V I have does have a cigarette lighter plug on and will be staying that way at least in the short term as I would like to be able to use them in the car - that's unless I decide it makes more sense to have a cigarette to 3 pin converter in the car! Though a couple are just cables which I might as well make up duplicates with a 3 pin plug on. I also have plenty of 5V charging or powered stuff, so plan to fit some dedicated adapters and sockets - though I'll probably hard wire the fixed things to a dedicated 5V supply rather than use USB sockets (it occurs to me that maybe I should investigate just getting a high power 5V supply and run a 5V circuit...) edit: https://www.4-max.co.uk/ubec-20a.htm looks like it would provide sufficient 5V power for anything I might want to run. I'm guessing nobody else has installed a 5V circuit in their boat so I would be a pioneer?

The "plus gas" I bought off the shelf (that is dependent on having a local Screwfix, but I seem to be surrounded by them now) https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-penetrating-lubricating-oil-750ml

The swimming trunks?

Mainly that they provide an escrow service. I agree it's perfectly possible to manage without, but it makes is a lot simpler to get that level of security (I'm guessing that most private transactions involve a bit more trust).

Not in the case of my boat it doesn't - I doubt that's a unique issue. As mentioned you need to use the reg number - my boat name isn't on the system, and when I first searched I was all confused and double checked the number with the dealer (it didn't help that the length registered is slightly different to what it was sold as). Though I subsequently found the original name on a plate on the engine block which confirmed things, along with an older registration document. Interestingly it does occur to me that the canalplan data shows the earliest it could have changed names which isn't that long ago, which presumably also gives a maximum age of the paintwork (which is reassuring). Generally you don't buy from a broker anyway, they just facilitate the sale (more like an estate agent combined with a conveyancer than a used car dealer - whether that's an advantage or not depends on your opinions of both!) My understanding is that there are some minor legal advantages, but certainly not in terms of any guarantee of the condition of the boat. Hmm, I may be going to be disillusioned at some point, but from what I could work out of the market, if you buy old enough and keep it in good condition then at worst they should depreciate very slowly. It does of course depend what you mean by that - if you sell for the same amount you paid has it depreciated because of inflation? Sure a boat a few years old is going to lose value steadily, but does it really make any difference to the buyer whether a boat is 30 or 35 years old - as with buying older cars it's all about the condition rather than the age or miles. I suspect things are different for GRP boats but the NB marketplace seems to be a thing of its own, and as always the value of a boat is all about what somebody else will pay for it.

That seems as good a reason as any I can think of. When I viewed the boat I'm currently sitting on I fell in love the moment I saw it - I had viewed several others first and whilst I could have imagined myself living on a couple of them, none of them quite did it for me. Though be careful about buying a boat because it's your style - style can be changed, the fundamentals need to be right too - with this boat I spent hours poring over it and then had a survey, all of which seemed to confirm I'd chosen well. The boat smelling of cigarettes might be a good buy if the price is right - I'd certainly expect that to make it more affordable (and if not walk away) - probably even worth putting in a silly offer if you feel it would otherwise work. Should be possible to get rid of, though it might take a while, and you'll likely find the smell is embedded in all the soft furnishings which you'll have to either wash or treat somehow or replace. If you're up for that and it's otherwise right then it shouldn't necessarily put you off (it would me, but then I find the smell of cigarette smoke so offputting I doubt I could bare it whilst getting rid, not in my home). Just as an aside it's probably worth mentioning that my current car was a real bargain, partly due to the very high mileage, but I'm sure also partly due to smelling of dog. It took a couple of months to get rid of that, I sprayed the upholstery several times (and I wasn't living in it) - for me that felt worth getting a bargain.

Personally either of the first two, depending on how permanent you want it (I'm doing a mix of those when installing stuff myself). I do have quite a few things with lighter plugs which I'm not going to change, but I wouldn't put one on if doing a new install - not unless I wanted to also be able to use it in my car (which applies to most of the things I already have wired like that, but wouldn't to a wifi box!) Lighter sockets are good at supplying fairly high currents for portable kit, but they're a fairly rubbish design for semi-permanent installs, eventually with vibration your box will probably disconnect.

Careful perusal of the pictures suggests it's a "walk through" bathroom, with a sliding door to galley on one side and the stair gate where a door should be the other side. I think even my skills could cope with replacing the stairgate with a door (actually I can do most things, it's just that the finish is so nice on my boat I'm nervous about ruining it by redoing stuff with a less good finish!) I've not had a bed like that, but I'm with you on it - it would bug me no end and I'd get bored very quickly. I'm also with you on the London whitewash, but some seem to like it (and to hate the traditional wood panelling I love on mine).

It is quite an important difference in a way though - you might be able to hide your hut well, but if and when it does get found then it's almost inevitable that some action will be taken. There is so much more of a grey area when living on something that can move, which makes any action against you far more difficult and therefore unlikely. I'm curious whether any such action similar to that with the caravan owners has ever been taken against somebody living on a boat at a mooring without residential pp. Of course I'm not making any recommendation here, and there would always be a risk involved.

Just as an aside, I feel I should point out that whilst I do live in a marina and one of the main reasons I got a boat is as somewhere to live, I do plan on moving quite a bit - I guess somebody who did mainly just want a floating flat might be less inclined to do a long delivery trip? I probably should point out that in a lot of ways I'm quite unusual - not only for a first time narrowboater, but also for a middle aged bloke. I'm fitter and more agile than the vast majority of 20 somethings, so jumping on and off the boat at locks for single handing isn't a big deal. I've also done a lot of dinghy sailing and like new challenges so was feeling fairly confident - I can understand why the idea of doing that is rather more daunting for most people. I should also point out that I needed some help getting out of the marina! Would probably have been OK without the crosswind which I had to make a very tight turn into - in retrospect I'm still not sure it was possible just from normal boat handling (not without a bow thruster!) but faced with the same situation now I'd probably walk up to the bow and pull the boat round with a rope. It is a good suggestion to ask for help - I did think about it, but I also thought I might get some of my friends to come and help. In the event the first help I got was when my kids arrived when I was halfway down Tardebigge, by which time I'd already done almost 100 locks and kind of knew what I was doing! Though I started off on the GU sharing locks which helped a lot.

Most of the comments on here about the costs of owning a boat seem to be comparing with having a mortgage (presumably from people who have or had a mortgage). If comparing with renting then the equation changes somewhat. I'm certainly not ignorant of all that - I used to have a mortgage, paid it off, but my ex now lives there, so the alternative to living on a boat for me was renting. My current financial situation wouldn't allow me to get a mortgage, however I am in the fortunate position of having plenty of capital (though not quite enough at the moment to buy a house with cash), hence I could afford to buy a decent boat - my attitude is that it might not appreciate like bricks, but if looked after properly neither should it depreciate significantly, hence it's an asset. I've read lots of comments on here, done the sums again and again and I'm still convinced it's far cheaper than renting, at least for me given my circumstances - a single bed is no use to me as there's no space for my kids (my boat has a second cabin for them), hence I'd be looking at £800+. Of course it does all depend on your exact circumstances but as an alternative to renting, living on a boat certainly can make financial sense IMHO. I've never hired a boat either - instead I started living on one in winter! As the OP discovered, hiring can quickly eat up a lot of money compared to buying - even at long term winter rates. I suppose it depends on how prepared you are to take a risk - but not only on that but also what other experience you're coming in with. The OP mentions that he's happy with camping and that living on a boat would be a step up - in that case he's unlikely to have big problems with the living conditions in winter IMHO. That was one of my considerations when I decided to get a boat - I don't need luxuries (though as it happens I have plenty on my boat) and happy to cope with all the stuff some people seem to think is difficult. Sure I might have only been living on board for 3 months and have a lot of winter ahead, but I'm nowhere near my discomfort zone at the moment despite several nights of frost - TBH it's not really anything like camping, it's far easier than that, but coming at it with a camping attitude makes it all seem fine. The other point you mainly cover is the moving a boat aspect - I'm not sure how much of that the OP is planning on doing, but again I've found it nowhere near as hard as some seem to make out - certainly not if you're young and fit as I'm guessing the OP probably is (I'm not so young myself, but way fitter than most 20 year olds). I gained my basic knowledge of steering and working locks on the first day I owned my boat! Well that and through doing a huge amount of research in advance, and a lot of experience of sailing dinghies which helped a lot with the boat handling. Personally given my circumstances there was only one possible option of where to live - my whole voyage started when I found there was a mooring available here. It is indeed the most important thing, I didn't commit to buying a boat until I'd got the mooring confirmed. Again it depends how confident you are about doing new things like this - my trip to get here was 80 miles and 130 locks and took me over a week single handed. The first time I'd ever driven a narrowboat was when I had to get mine out of the marina where it was moored (which is still the hardest thing I've ever done, it's way easier getting in and out here). The first time I'd ever done a lock was about an hour later, the first time I'd slept on one was a few hours after that. Most people probably think I was a bit mad, but I made it here without any major mishaps and now kind of know what I'm doing. I'm so, so glad I did that - it was an adventure with a purpose which I'm never likely to repeat. It is sensible to set a limit on range when looking though for practical reasons - that was about the furthest away I was considering (though plenty of choice within that range for me).

I love my cratch cover - it's great having a "shed". One advantage being versatility - I can always take my cover off and have an open deck. So if you have an enclosed bow which makes your boat more seaworthy where do the low level vents go? You say that you covered yours with duct tape! I'm not quite sure how you square this one - either you have low level vents at the front which let in water or you don't - my suggestion is having them in a way that they can be sealed properly when necessary, versatility again. To take your boat as an example, the deflector would fit between the raised and well part of the front deck - if the problem is waves breaking over the front deck then it should deflect the water to the sides away from the well.

Back to the original topic, I'm interested by those commenting that they visited GH wanting to see a boat. I presume they're meaning they visited GH marina - but I looked at a boat GH were selling which was at a different one of their marinas - they have quite a few. Which is relevant to the issue I had with them - there doesn't appear to be any way to tell from their website the exact location of the boat, though a bit of sleuthing also using Apolloduck can narrow it down. That may not be an issue for some people, but personally when buying a boat I set a limit on my range of about a week's cruising from where I am now as I couldn't really afford to spend longer than that. That put some of their marinas out of my range, hence some of the boats weren't interesting to me - but I couldn't tell that without speaking to them. Maybe that's just an issue for me, but in this day and age it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect to be able to do most things via the internet - and indeed the other brokerages I looked at which had multiple locations all specified which location the boats were at, hence no time wasting checking out boats which were too far away. A kind of related issue, is that on my way back from viewing the boat I'm currently sitting on I drove past one of their marinas and thought I might as well have a quick browse whilst I was there so I stopped in and found an unattended office - I asked at the marina office but they said they had nothing to do with the sales, so I called the number (after driving down the road a bit, no signal at the marina) to see if I could have a look at any boats which might be there (I had no idea what boats were), but apparently it wouldn't be possible without booking an appointment for the next day. I can kind of see the point of this, and one other brokerage was similar, but I visited several other marinas where I did just turn up on spec and was able to look around boats. Admittedly I would have just been tyre kicking as I had a very specific requirement and I did eventually view the only boat they had which met that, but they didn't know I wasn't in the market for something more generic - I certainly had the cash available to buy. Just to balance things out I should point out that when I did view the boat they had, the service I received from their staff was great, including follow up phone calls - and whilst some might find that irritating, they were very polite when I told them I had already bought a boat and took me straight off their system. I note that the boat I viewed over 3 months ago still appears to be for sale... No mention on here of the brokerage I did buy my boat through - ABC boat sales. I've no idea what their reputation is, but as a buyer I found them to be excellent in every way, seemingly going out of their way to make things easier for me with very helpful staff. Though as mentioned above it's really all about the boat - given my requirement which probably ruled out more like 95% of the boats for sale I'd have bought the one I now own whoever was selling it.

But then if once you get off canals and onto tidal waters you don't really want any boat designed for use on canals. Clearly everything is a compromise, but the "problem" of well deck and bow doors is one which is really easily solved if you want to do it properly - bow doors and vents with proper designed in seals or a sealed cover over them (the latter could easily be a retrofit), something to shed waves on the well deck to deflect most of the water away (it doesn't have to be perfect, just enough that the drains aren't overwhelmed). It doesn't even have to be a cover, a wave deflector would probably be sufficient, something like this kayak one: Though would a standard cratch cover do a sufficiently good job anyway? That way you get the best of both worlds - just as good seaworthiness when required, all the advantages of bow doors and well deck the rest of the time. Bearing in mind we're still talking about a boat which is far from ideal for use on tidal waters in many other ways.

Assuming it is the one in the RIghtmove advert, then it is - it's the only house I can think of for sale in Worcester with a boat moored next to it. I had been meaning to find out how much it was, but was thinking it was a bit smaller and cheaper than it is! Slight inaccuracy in the ad - the nearby winding hole can easily wind a 61 footer, but I guess any buyer is only interested in what they can do with a 48 footer. TBH I tend to agree with many others on here that there's a mismatch between the size of the house and the size of the mooring - surely the market for <48ft boats doesn't have much overlap with the market for 6 bedroom houses? I guess as the OP hasn't been back there's no point in asking about how usable the boat is - though having thought it was an abandoned project I noted that there were lights on when we went past on Xmas day, so slowed down a bit!

You may well be right. But I'm equally sure that if I fall into the sea when out kayaking and use my VHF to call for help I'm not going to be prosecuted - on the contrary whilst I'd be embarrassed at making use of the rescue services, I'm sure they'd much rather I used a VHF to call them as soon as possible rather than relying on flares or prayers. I hadn't even imagined the idea of living on a NB when I bought my VHF (and haven't been out on the sea in a kayak for a couple of years) - I suspect I might go on a course so I can call up the lock keepers (though it seems a phone probably works just as well most places I'd go). It may be more useful for that now given it's not DSC if 16 isn't being actively monitored - is a mayday call on 16 still a useful way to get help?

The main committee work I did also involved RSGB - HF radio stuff, hence of interest to hams and military as I mentioned. I thought of mentioning that, but wasn't sure if hams would be sneered at by some on here (in some areas they are certainly the leading experts - one person I worked with who was probably the best in his field was also a ham). You snipped the important bit at the start "in the case of broadcast". In that context I think it's both, though broadcast certainly isn't my area of expertise.

Like others I was under the impression that there is nothing illegal about carrying a VHF radio without an operator's licence and using it only to receive - I did a lot of research on this when I bought my handheld, which was in 2011 I think (so after the 2006 act) and I'm sure I found specific advice that it isn't illegal - it would certainly be unusual to include reception only under the definition of "use". One interesting issue here is that the standard short range operator's licence which is what I presume people on here hold only covers you for use of a radio on a boat, hence if the lock keepers do hold licenses it would need to be some other form of licence (and again there is nothing illegal about using a handheld on land to monitor traffic). Because personally I don't have an operator's licence - I bought my VHF radio for use in an emergency when I go sea kayaking. As mentioned above I've used radios professionally so I'm fully conversant with radio procedure and the protocol for a mayday call is available online - I have it printed out and laminated for reference. I doubt a course would teach me much. Meanwhile there is zero likelihood of being prosecuted for transmitting without a licence in an emergency situation " OPERATOR'S LICENCE It is a legal requirement that anyone using your radio is qualified to do so. The only exception is in an emergency situation when anyone may use the radio to call for help." http://completeguide.rnli.org/vhf-radios.html