Jonny P

Wow. I didn't realise you were THAT old. I doubt anyone else here has done the Runcorn locks. Were they good?

Good call. Bosley locks have unique features and a beautiful setting. As well as mitred gates at top and bottom they also have stone chambers which is rare (unique on narrow canals?). Many are capped with stone but have brick walls. I recall mooring somewhere south of Bosley and walking down a main(ish) road to an isolated pub once, but it was a good few years ago. JP

Naturally all the ex-GUCCCo boats displayed at Braunston every other year carry that company's livery. Don't they?

Possibly dangerous. From photos of Fonserranes it looks like the lock keepers take advantage of the locks having low cills to allow them to operate adjacent locks at least partially in tandem rather than completely sequentially. Is that the case? You can't do that if there is a risk of grounding on the cill. I have been told that the narrow staircases at Stourport are built with a single invert and can be operated in combination. Certainly there is no visible cill for the upper lock when the lower lock is at the lower level. Never seen them drained to confirm though. JP

Maybe those other folk did some homework and realised that Norbury to Llangollen and return is 20 more miles and 2 more locks - and therefore at least one days cruising - longer than a trip around the Four Counties Ring. And that's before you add any other trips on. Let's face it, with three weeks there is loads of time for the OP to do what what they want and I do concur that their proposal is a good match to their requirements and circumstances. I am not aiming this in direct response to you but I do wish we could lay to rest the idea that rings are more risky and stressful than an out and back. It's the distance from base that matters not the shape of the cruise. Obviously no point on the Four Counties Ring is further from Norbury than the top end of the Llangollen. So why is it more stressful or risky to take on? A ring has the added contingency of having two routes back home if needed. I always took on challenging itineraries of both types of cruise when hiring - sometimes as a result of having to change plans - and have had breakdowns, but never failed to get back on time. It's all part of the adventure. Given the choice I would still do a ring over an out and back. JP

That's what happens when you bring your GU ways to the BCN.

That's good to hear and I knew it was happening but there are normally two each year and together with the 24 Hour Challenge they are a key part of the BCNS annual programme yet they don't appear on the BCNS website. Bizarrely though the website has been updated to show model railway society meetings in the clubhouse in the events diary. As a member, donor, active volunteer and participant I find that a little strange but I am aware of changes in personnel in both the leadership of the Society and of the major events. These have resulted in a loss of continuity hence my comment. Long term the Society - or at least the big events - may not survive on word of mouth alone. An Explorer cruise isn't for me at the present time. As for the weed issue I have completed three 24 hour challenges in a boat without a weed hatch and had no major issues. Obviously it requires being defensive through bridges, around floating vegetation and other debris but have never had more than 3 or 4 goes with the shaft in any one day. You can - and at some point will - pick up some plastic or an item of clothing but that's true even of the heavily used bits of the BCN. Part of the trick is not to faff around worrying about the prop at the slightest hint of trouble. The shallow water and debris can often make it appear that there is something significant around the prop when there isn't. My prop wash always looks disturbed compared to how it is normally when on the BCN. Will also add after seeing your latest post that I think initially you might be best served attacking anything snagged around the prop with the shaft rather than bother with the weed hatch. It's often quick and easy to at least get the main body of stuff off the prop. You get to know where to aim with practice. JP

A big thanks for taking it on. I had been starting to think it might not be happening this year until I saw a post on the BCNS FB page a few days ago. There is no mention of the Challenge or the Explorer cruises in the list of events on the BCNS website. There have been changes in personnel that seem to have upset continuity at the Society. Maybe Tawny's normal crew will hijack it and enter it, or maybe even enter their own boats to boost the numbers. I will e-mail my entry. JP

That was me, with Rob-M crewing. JP ETA - Just realised what you meant, dmr was crewing on Goliath.

There is something about Delph that transports you back in time when you stand at the bottom and look up. It's a great place. The middle of Stourbridge flight looking down to Dadford's shed and the Red House cone is a gem too. I don't consider them the easiest flights though. I wouldn't swap working the 30 locks of Tardebigge for the 24 locks of Stourbridge and Delph in terms of effort. That may have something to do with the falls as Stourbridge and Delph are all 9' to 10' or more while Tardebigge are all 7' with big paddles bar the newer top lock. Tardebigge would be best flight in the country if it wasn't quite so big and it had a decent pub at the top. I always moor at the 'new' wharf at the top rather than the visitor moorings below the top lock. It's a great location. You get a sense that very little has changed in 200 years when working the flight on a quiet day. Lapworth - at least upper and middle anyway - is an obvious candidate. Very easy to work and picturesque. Rushall is a pleasant surprise being mostly surrounded by 1930s suburbia. Certainly BCN and W&B locks are easier than Staffs & Worcs and T&M locks which need careful positioning and aren't as quick. Factory may be similar to Delph but it's an awful flight although that may be because of a combination of poor maintenance and abuse rather than design. I will also cast a vote for Buckby as the worst flight. In theory it should be good but having been down and back up in each of the last two summers I have had four painful passages and no good ones. I don't find any GU locks easy - either on the old GJC or the Birmingham line. JP

Considering the railway it is on (originally the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham) was opened 14 years after the Stockton & Darlington Railway I think you were told wrong. I doubt it's even close to being the oldest railway bridge in Manchester. The oldest railway bridge in the world still in use is Skerne Bridge in Darlington although there is a bridge in Bassaleg, Newport, South Wales that was originally part of a tramway that was converted to a railway that is older and remains in use. Causey Arch is much older and has a similar history but no longer carries a railway. JP

With a three week hire it would be possible to do the Four Counties Ring with Llangollen and Caldon Canals with 6 hours average daily cruising time. There is a risk of fatigue over three weeks if the route is too lock heavy or the days too long even if there is 18 hours of daylight. It's a long way up from the Cheshire plain to Birmingham and I'm not sure combining the Four Counties and Stourport Rings is a good suggestion for this particular query. The trip down the Llangollen will also break up the lock heavy days of the Four Counties Ring. If you arrive at Autherley Junction with a bit of time in hand head down the Staffs & Worcs maybe as far as the Bratch before returning to Norbury. You could swap either branch for others listed above such as Chester or Anderton. if you are the sort of people who like a plan I would recommend setting out to complete at least the Four Counties Ring. If you potter about the northern end of the Shropshire Union and Trent & Mersey for three weeks it might seem a bit listless, but that may suit you. JP

I couldn't come up with a proposal for a one week hire that met the requirements of the OP on those waterways. There are many other wide canals and rivers I didn't mention for the same reason. I think the one I genuinely did overlook was the Kennet & Avon. Ironic considering I had just posted on the ongoing thread regarding a week's holiday on that canal. JP

I second the advice above from IanD. Seven adults is a lot of people in a small space for a week on one narrowboat. So assuming budget isn't restrictive two boats would be far more comfortable and allow space to relax and also delineate living space from sleeping space. Assuming two boats the advice of a wide canal is sound as the locks will be as near as dammit half the effort and will allow interaction between the two boats that narrow locks won't. Spending two or three days following one another up the Ashby and back may not feel like it's really a group holiday. And there won't be a single lock to operate on those days. So it's either the Leeds & Liverpool or the Grand Union for wide locks. It may ultimately come down to availability of boats. The Barnoldswick to Bingley suggestion seems to fit your requirements really well and there is also Pennine Cruisers on the L&L although I can't help with first hand knowledge. For the Grand Union an option would be Wyvern Shipping at Leighton Buzzard and go north to perhaps Napton. Alternatively hire at Kate Boats (Stockton) which I can recommend, or Napton Narrowboats or Union Canal cruisers at Braunston (both reputable) and go south. It will be busier (possibly much busier) than the L&L but mostly through picturesque rural English farmland and villages plus canal centres such as Braunston and Stoke Bruerne. A visit to the Folly Inn would be a good reason to reach Napton and turn before the first narrow lock. JP

I hired from Hilperton in June three or four years ago with a group of friends from work. First night moored at Seend Wharf and visited the Barge Inn - a Wadworth's eating pub - and Devizes Wharf the second night. Found a small craft beer bar and a nice bistro but there was plenty of choice. Both moorings were on rings against a concrete or piled bank IIRC. We were on a weekend hire so turned round and headed back down Caen Hill before breakfast the next morning, back to Seend Wharf for Sunday lunch, back past the hire base to wind above Bradford lock then an evening meal at a Thai restaurant in Bradford-on-Avon after a pint or three of Landlord at a pub in town. We struggled to moor in Bradford when arriving late afternoon/early evening and had to squeeze into a space someone had just vacated because they couldn't easily get into the side. Also had to go at least half a mile back from town to find that space and needed the gangplank. At no point in the weekend did we ever seem to not have a moored boat in view ahead of us so it is slow cruising as it's pretty much never at full cruising speed. You just have to keep on and you'll get there. I suspect it improves as you go east but as we didn't go that far someone else will need to confirm that. However the canal itself wasn't overly busy with boats on the move. I don't recall sharing many locks. JP

The premise of the OP and the subsequent discussion and evidence suggest that's precisely what didn't happen, hence there is only a tiny amount of variation from recording narrow beam craft as simply "boats" or "canal boats" historically. Census records were complied from both written and verbal evidence of the householder; for most boat people it was probably the latter. What is recorded is far more likely to be the words of the householder (or master of the boat) than the invention of a civil servant. Language constantly evolves so it isn't necessarily the case that the various terms we know exist for canal boats have any long standing historical usage. The evidence suggests these names were localised and/or limited in use in the 19th century and that 'narrow' was an adjective applied to distinguish a narrow craft from a larger one where there was a need to make that distinction. It seems the singular noun 'narrowboat' is a creation with about 50 years history, which is probably what most of us would have figured in any case. JP

That's borne out in evidence. Although there are only eight references to "long boat" in census records from 1841 to 1911 six of those relate to vessels in Gloucestershire. The other two are both at Brereton Wharf, Rugeley, Staffordshire and 50 years apart - 1861 and 1911. This is probably coincidence since the boats concerned were crewed by masters from Stourport and Gloucester respectively. JP

Yes. It would be impractical to do such a search any other way. My initial observations on this thread though were based upon my recollections of directly looking at documents. It's that sort of attentIon to detail which is important when determining how to search online. JP

The searches were done on ancestry.com. I believe it was originally a spin-off from Church of LDS but is now a publicly listed company. It's still based Utah so quite probably run by Mormons. I have other reference documents and direct family research and knowledge but I don't have the time to do the 'on foot' research that is needed to dig down into the loose ends that online can't answer. That's for the future for a few missing links I can't answer in my own tree. Jon

It's possible he is the second person from the bottom of the attached 1891 census sheet. It's a Thomas Kay aged 4 born Gravesend, London and boarding with a tailor and draper in Church Hulme, Cheshire, just a few miles from Wheelock. I note in the 1901 census his birth place is listed simply as London so I don't think the fact that Gravesend is in Kent rather than Middlesex is a major issue. I wonder it any of the people in the 1891 census can be linked to any in the 1901 census, there's nothing apparent in the entries at first glance. JP

A search on "Monkey Boat" reveals just one usage between 1841 and 1911 and that is in 1881 for Alice Dimmock, wife of John Dimmock, of 21 Tomlin's Terrace, Limehouse, London whose location of birth is listed as "In a Monkey Boat". Unsurprisingly "Horse Boat" turns up no results. JP

That's essentially what I did - albeit directly online via an alternative source - after an initial trawl through records I hold. Not foolproof but I did interrogate beyond a simple search. Despite the lack of results it may very well have turned up the first recorded usage of the words "Narrow Boat" to describe a canal boat of the English inland waterways and of the term "Narrowboat". JP

Hi Kay_C, Thought I'd respond as Lorna hasn't been on since you posted. She isn't a regular contributor to the forum so it may take a while for her to respond. I have a Lucy Kay 1865-1891 in my records who married into an Atkins boating family at Tunstall. I also note she appears on board boats as a young girl in census information. She is not directly related to me but I keep wider records of people who are connected to my boating ancestors by birth and marriage. I will do some investigation and see if I can link her to anyone you mention above which would likely confirm the Kay family boating heritage. I also have information for three people with the surname of Hodson who married into families connected to my own. Two of these appear to be on the Cheshire/Staffordshire canals, the other in Coventry. I suspect at least the former two are related. Keep an eye out for further info from Lorna and if she doesn't appear you'll have to settle for what I can find. JP

To add to the above there are also three other uses of the term "Narrow Boat" in the 1881 census. These are to describe a boat at Runcorn, Cheshire and two boats at Newbold and Dunston, Chesterfield, Derbyshire. There is seemingly no use of the term in any of the 1841, 1851, 1871, 1891 or 1901 censuses. In 1911 there are four entries of which three are the use of the term "Narrow Boat Builder" as the occupation in entries for Marple, Cheshire. The other is the listing of "Waterman Narrowboat" as the occupation for a person in hospital in Runcorn, Cheshire. So, apparently very little use in historic census information - unless someone that actually has access to the records can conduct a better search than I have managed - and notably all in parts of Cheshire and Derbyshire where narrow craft would not necessarily be in the majority in the surrounding area. JP