240V Install Advice Needed

[TheCrowsNest]

As mentioned in the other topic, I have just bought a 45' Narrowboat. The boat comes with only a 12V supply through 3 leisure batteries and 1 starter battery. I intend to live on board at a mooring and need to fit a 240V supply.

 

I have studied a few university modules on electronics but I have never applied this to Narrowboats and I am unsure of the boat safety certificate requirements.

 

I have drawn up a rough plan of what I thought I could do?

 

 

 

I don't know if this is too basic or would this be acceptable?

Thanks for any advice or help you can provide!

[Chris Pink]

You are in danger of opening a can of worms here. You are essentially intending to run all appliances as portable appliances, ie no earth bonding of the boat.

 

Whereas some might consider this a valid way of running 240v aboard, especially if all your appliances are class II insulated others will recommend you go down the installation route with hull bonding, an RCD and galvanic isolation.

 

If you do go down the 'portable appliance' route then the essential thing is establish a routine for inspecting cables and extension leads for safety as this will be the vulnerable part of your system.

 

In fact, that you show a input plug implies at least some will be installed. What you should not do from the safety point of view is mix and match systems.

 

Though I might have misread your diagram

[BargeeSpud]

What you need is a Gibbo & his LINK is a good one.

[Lanners]

You are in danger of opening a can of worms here. You are essentially intending to run all appliances as portable appliances, ie no earth bonding of the boat.

 

Whereas some might consider this a valid way of running 240v aboard, especially if all your appliances are class II insulated others will recommend you go down the installation route with hull bonding, an RCD and galvanic isolation.

 

If you do go down the 'portable appliance' route then the essential thing is establish a routine for inspecting cables and extension leads for safety as this will be the vulnerable part of your system.

 

In fact, that you show a input plug implies at least some will be installed. What you should not do from the safety point of view is mix and match systems.

 

Though I might have misread your diagram

 

Does anyone know if a galvanic isolator is a requirement of the Recreational Craft Directive? - We have a new build widebeam narrow boat (victron 3K inverter, plus 240 & 12v ring, and shore power) so was wondering if we need to buy one in order to prolong our annodes / hull.

 

Thanks

 

Toby.

[BargeeSpud]

Does anyone know if a galvanic isolator is a requirement of the Recreational Craft Directive? - We have a new build widebeam narrow boat (victron 3K inverter, plus 240 & 12v ring, and shore power) so was wondering if we need to buy one in order to prolong our annodes / hull.

 

Thanks

 

Toby.

I can't answer your specific question, but I would have thought that you would already have one fitted if it wasn't built by yourself. If it was built by yourself, then definately fit one.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Spuds

[Lanners]

I can't answer your specific question, but I would have thought that you would already have one fitted if it wasn't built by yourself. If it was built by yourself, then definately fit one.

 

Not built by me, but I would only assume its fitted it were a requirement of the RCD, will have a proper look later. I assume it would be near the earth strap?

[BargeeSpud]

Not built by me, but I would only assume its fitted it were a requirement of the RCD, will have a proper look later. I assume it would be near the earth strap?

It might be, or it might be near to your consumer unit, try following your earth cable & it should be wired to that. Better still follow the link I put up earlier & you'll probably find on there a wiring diagram that fits your own installation. The only diagram without an isolator shown is for a circuit supplied by an inverter only with no shore power.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Spuds

[Lanners]

Very handy!,

Cheers Spuds

[alan_fincher]

You are in danger of opening a can of worms here. You are essentially intending to run all appliances as portable appliances, ie no earth bonding of the boat.

 

Whereas some might consider this a valid way of running 240v aboard, especially if all your appliances are class II insulated others will recommend you go down the installation route with hull bonding, an RCD and galvanic isolation.

 

If you do go down the 'portable appliance' route then the essential thing is establish a routine for inspecting cables and extension leads for safety as this will be the vulnerable part of your system.

 

In fact, that you show a input plug implies at least some will be installed. What you should not do from the safety point of view is mix and match systems.

 

Though I might have misread your diagram

I agree with Chris.......

 

If you go for a proper 16 amp connector box installed on the boat, but just hang all that other stuff off the end, you will not have any bonding of the earth to the shell.

 

To me it is a nasty hybrid, that is neither one thing, nor the other.

 

It really isn't a lot harder, I would have thought, to make the installation more permanent, using a properly installed box incorporating both the RCD and MCBs, rather than something potable presumably aimed at something like camping or caravaning use.

 

As Chris says, others may say it is fine, and I did briefly operate with something akin to your diagram, but personally felt a lot happier doing it propely with an earth bond.

[Proper Job]

To the OP...........

 

You're going to live aboard..... it's your home.......

 

Do it properly with RCD's/MCB's and get it checked out by a competent lecky. Your current plan is fraught with danger (for you and the people around you)

[by'eck]

Does anyone know if a galvanic isolator is a requirement of the Recreational Craft Directive? - We have a new build widebeam narrow boat (victron 3K inverter, plus 240 & 12v ring, and shore power) so was wondering if we need to buy one in order to prolong our annodes / hull.

 

Thanks

 

Toby.

 

Not an RCD requirement but a good idea.

[TheCrowsNest]

Thanks guys, lots of good advice there.

 

I did think that earthing would be an issue but I didn't know how to do it.

I will read through Spud's link and have a re-think.

 

I already have the camping "outside plug to 3 plug sockets" unit, hence the question.

[Chris Pink]

If you do go the installation route and thus bond your hull you *will* need galvanic protection otherwise hull damage *will* occur if connected to shore power for any length of time.

 

Does anyone know if a galvanic isolator is a requirement of the Recreational Craft Directive? - We have a new build widebeam narrow boat (victron 3K inverter, plus 240 & 12v ring, and shore power) so was wondering if we need to buy one in order to prolong our annodes / hull.

 

Thanks

 

Toby.

 

Only if connected to shore power. If not it does nothing.

 

(Although some say it helps appease the weather gods)

[mrsmelly]

Hi

 

Theres a hell of a lot of portholes for a 45ft boat.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Theres a hell of a lot of portholes for a 45ft boat.

It's not a Norton Canes boat that has had its cabin "Photoshopped" longer, is it?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

FYI "Photoshop" is a way of fiddling with a photo on a computer so that it is no longer the picture that the original photographer took, Tim - even though we know you don't care!

Edited January 7, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Paul C]

Hi

 

Theres a hell of a lot of portholes for a 45ft boat.

 

Tim

 

It looks out of proportion, ie longer than 45 foot.

[mrsmelly]

It's not a Norton Canes boat that has had its cabin "Photoshopped" longer, is it?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

FYI "Photoshop" is a way of fiddling with a photo on a computer so that it is no longer the picture that the original photographer took, Tim - even though we know you don't care!

 

Hi Alan

Thanks for the info, you are right I dont care but what the hell is the point of taking a foto of exactly what is in the subject matter and changing it? I know its done by saddo celebs and models to make them what they believe is better but why would anyone else want to? we are living in a sadder and sadder world are we not.

 

Tim

[TheCrowsNest]

My boat actually has no portholes, the image was just for illustration purposes

 

So if I was to go down the route of:

 

What parts would you advise I order? I already have an inverter (came with the boat) but will need everything else.

 

Obviously I would like to keep the costs down and the installation as simple as possible. Many many thanks for all the help!

[Paul C]

My boat actually has no portholes, the image was just for illustration purposes

 

So if I was to go down the route of:

 

What parts would you advise I order? I already have an inverter (came with the boat) but will need everything else.

 

Obviously I would like to keep the costs down and the installation as simple as possible. Many many thanks for all the help!

 

2x RCBs, one with a (say) 6A MCB, the other with a 6A and 10A MCB

240V changeover switch

galvanic isolator (get one with LEDs to show operation)

splashproof mains input socket

mains hookup lead (or the wire & plug/socket to make one up)

about 10m of earth cable

some ring terminals, eg 8mm ring (I think its actually about 8.4mm)

M8 bolt , some washers and some nuts (eg nyloc ones, it will be near the engine and normal stuff will vibrate loose)

some heatshrink (for the earth cable)

cable clips, cable ties

lots of 240V mains wiring, eg 1.5mm2 or thereabouts. Maybe a 30m reel?

some sockets

 

battery charger

some thick 12V cable in red and black

maxi or mega fuse holder

maxi or mega fuse, of the relevant rating

the relevant terminals, heat shrink and if needs be, the tool to make the terminals

 

 

Have you figured how you're going to gain access behind the panels etc for mains wiring runs?

Have you figured how/where the earth connection (hull bonding) will be routed from wherever your RCBs are installed, to where your hull bonding point is (ie interior of boat to engine room)?

Do you have the tools to cut the hole for the mains input socket (the metalwork will be around 6mm thick)

Do you have the ability to drill the 8mm hole, if needs be, to create the hull bonding point?

Does the 12V side of the boat already have an earthing point (you want the mains one to be very near, but not the same as, this one).

[alan_fincher]

Hi Alan

Thanks for the info, you are right I dont care but what the hell is the point of taking a foto of exactly what is in the subject matter and changing it? I know its done by saddo celebs and models to make them what they believe is better but why would anyone else want to? we are living in a sadder and sadder world are we not.

 

Tim

I might just take a photo of our boat bathroom and Photoshop out the cassette toilet and "replace" it with a pump-out one, just to get you going!

[Chris Pink]

You can save on a changeover switch by having one plug (to the sockets) and two sockets, the inverter output and and a socket on the shore line feed. You will also need to establish whether the inverter is neutral earth bonded.

[Guest]

You can save on a changeover switch by having one plug (to the sockets) and two sockets, the inverter output and and a socket on the shore line feed. You will also need to establish whether the inverter is neutral earth bonded.

I have seen this done a few times, and feel it is a really foolproof way of doing the job. If my inverter was not of the UPS type, I would have used this method on my boat.

[Chris Pink]

It's not a Norton Canes boat that has had its cabin "Photoshopped" longer, is it?

 

 

I've been puzzling all day over this one. should the verb "to photoshop" (conjugate as "to shop") have a cap P or not?

 

You can see which way I'm leaning.

[Arthur Brown]

Follow the link as Spuds suggested http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/nb_ac_sys.html read and understand it, follow lots (all?) of the links on the Smartgauge site they are all good (or better).

 

Do an audit of your power and energy usage according to a method suggested in http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf

 

Sort out your power and energy needs and their source and usage.

 

 

Do not install 4 gang extension leads, find a place to install 13A sockets properly in boxes in the cabin wall or on trunking reserved for 250V use. IIRC twin and earth is NOT permissible multi strand (usually blue arctic) is normally used. It seems normal to install separately fused (breakered) radial circuits rather than a ring circuit.

 

Input from a portable generator will usually need a N-E link for correct operation of RCD trips. Inputs from a UK mains usually should not have a N-E link or RCD's may nuisance trip or fail to work.

[Guest]

Follow the link as Spuds suggested http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/nb_ac_sys.html read and understand it, follow lots (all?) of the links on the Smartgauge site they are all good (or better).

 

Do an audit of your power and energy usage according to a method suggested in http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf

 

Sort out your power and energy needs and their source and usage.

 

 

Do not install 4 gang extension leads, find a place to install 13A sockets properly in boxes in the cabin wall or on trunking reserved for 250V use. IIRC twin and earth is NOT permissible multi strand (usually blue arctic) is normally used. It seems normal to install separately fused (breakered) radial circuits rather than a ring circuit.

 

Input from a portable generator will usually need a N-E link for correct operation of RCD trips. Inputs from a UK mains usually should not have a N-E link or RCD's may nuisance trip or fail to work.

Good point re twin and earth cable, which is not ideal (That said I have seen solid core "pyro" (MICC) cable used on a sea going ferry.)

I made my neutral earth link "switchable" so that if going on shore power or other supply that doesn't like it, it can quickly be switched out (mine is a UPS inverter.)