What is a josher bow?

[Trelawney]

What is a Josher bow? I have seen it listed many times as a feature etc of a new or 2nd hand boat, but I still can't work out what the difference between a Josher and a standard bow is.

[maffi mushkila]

What is a Josher bow?   I have seen it listed many times as a feature etc of a new or 2nd hand boat, but I still can't work out what the difference between a Josher and a standard bow is.

 

 

"The characteristics are of a long lean bow, with a double curvature and fine underwater sections."

 

A Josher Bow has a double curvature ie it curves in towards the sharp end and then out a bit. I think it also sweeps upwards. Every one agree? Designed by a chap named Joshua Fellows

 

Josher Bow 1

Josher Bow 2

Edited October 19, 2004 by maffi mushkila

[nbtafelberg]

A Josher bow is a very old design that sweeps up. It's difficult without a good picture of it.

 

In this months Waterways World they have a picture of it in their monthly glossary.

 

I get the impression Josher's are difficult to fabricate thus they are not done that often.

[Jon]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they tend to have a shallower draft than other hulls too?

 

Jon

[jmj]

I agree with Maffi, although I'm not sure that it was designed by Joshua Fellows? It was certainly named after him.

Anyone confirm/deny, agree. disagree with this?

 

The reason for this shape is that they swim* better than a standard bow.

 

* move through the water with less resistance, giving higher speed, lower power requirement.

 

John

[David Schweizer]

The expression Josher Bow is a generic term for a number of slightly diffeing designs of boat which were built for Fellows Morton and Clayton. The distinguishing feature of all of them is the double curved bow which from top to bottom is in the shape of a gentle ogee. The bow also tends to be quite slender with a long foredeck which creates a long swim to the front of the boat. This is claimed yo give a better passarge through the water and thus allows boats to be loaded with less freeboard. However judging fronm the number of pictures in existence of FMC boats which have sunk, some captains clearly over-estimated this capability.

 

There are a number of diffeing styles of Josher, and whilst many were built by Yarwoods, other Yards also added to the fleet. the wooden hulled boats built at the company yards at Uxbridge and Saltley are much heavier in apperance than the rivetted iron and steel hulls, and whilst they also have the same double curvature to the bow, they do not have the same gracefull appearance of their iron and Steel counterparts.

 

Many builders today produce faithfull replicas of the original Joshers, but some of the budget builders who claim to be building Joshers have obviosly never seen an original as they often bear only a passing resemblenceto the real thing.

 

For more information on Joshers and the history of FMC try and obtain a copy of Alan Faulkner's book titled "FMC" it is only about £4 and has a lot of interesting illustrations.

[GeorgeL]

Josher bows were inspired by the bow shapes of sea-going boats, which typically go faster and encounter waves. They require a sharp entry to cut through a heavy sea, and high freeboard both to add buoyancy and to deflect water from coming over onto the deck.

 

They look good on canal craft (because they make barges look like proper boats), but have absolutely no practical benefit whatsoever, since the conditions on canals are completely different from those on the open sea.

 

I cannot see how a high bow would help to achieve a shallower draft. If anything, it would do the opposite, because of the increased weight.

 

A josher bow would of course be ideal if one were building a narrowboat with sea-going abilities. There is no reason why a narrowboat shouldn't go to sea, provided the ballast is secure, and the boat is watertight.

 

George

[Martin]

Welcome aboard George!

Octarine has a particularly pointy bow which I will photograph and post.

Those photos shown so far do not show what I always thought was a Josher bow.

Didn't they become popular on so called "fly boats" as they were supposedly quicker - mine certainly doesn't create much wash which presumably means there is less power used in creating waves and more in pushing the boat forward.

While this might not necessarily create greater speed, it would have been easier on the engines of the time - and a Bollinder is probably going to require all the help it can get!

[David Schweizer]

George, I assume that you never seen a fully loaded pair of working Narrowboats travelling at full speed, they often had only a few inches of freeboard and created quite a considerable wash. Without a raised bow the water would run over the foredeck and into the front locker and hold. The reference to sea going conditions is also applicable to narrowboats as many of them travelled on the tidal Thames, which can be quite choppy at times. They were also regularly used other major rivers in the Midlands and the North.

 

By the way Martin how can I access the pictures you refer to?

[GeorgeL]

George, I assume that you never seen a fully loaded pair of working Narrowboats travelling at full speed, they often had only a few inches of freeboard and created quite a considerable wash. Without a raised bow the water would run over the foredeck and into the front locker and hold. The reference to sea going conditions is also applicable to narrowboats as many of them travelled on the tidal Thames, which can be quite choppy at times. They were also regularly used other major rivers in the Midlands and the North.

 

By the way Martin how can I access the pictures you refer to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

David,

 

I fully take your point. I should have been more specific and said that Josher bows have no practical advantage on modern narrowboats used for leisure on the canals, but I agree that rough conditions in rivers or estuaries are another matter entirely.

 

Martin,

 

I would agree that a sharper bow shape might well improve performance, but a sharp bow alone doth not a josher make. Other bow designs could well equal or out-perform a josher; the Alvechurch bulb is (perhaps) an example.

 

George

(Planning a sea-capable NB with josher bow)

[David Schweizer]

moving off the subject a bit , but I met a chap on the Thames earlier this year who had one of the Alvechurch "Bulb" bows on his boat, and he hated it. He said it didn't steer as well as his previous conventionaly hulled boat, especially backwards.

[GeorgeL]

moving off the subject a bit , but I met a chap on the Thames earlier this year who had one of the Alvechurch "Bulb" bows on his boat, and he hated it. He said it didn't steer as well as his previous conventionaly hulled boat, especially backwards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a pity there haven't been any proper tests of these hulls (if there have been, I haven't seen them). Theoretically they should save a lot of money over a period of years.

 

It would be very interesting to retro-fit a bulb to an existing hull, and then compare the before and after performance and handling. Or compare two otherwise identical boats. With different boats, who is to say whether it's the bulb to blame for poor steering, or something else.

 

From what I can see, very few hull-builders either know much or care much about the effect that different hull shapes have on performance. Perhaps we need to institute NB races to encourage some research and competition. It's racing that has led to most improvements in car, boat, and horse design. (Horses of course need more time than mechanical things.)

 

As fuel is likely to get very much more expensive in future, we need to plan ahead.

 

George

[John Orentas]

George, David.

 

Part of the problem was that Alvechurch fitted a smaller than standard engine in their boat, that's what gave it's not so good reputation. They should have known that the engine size should be related to the weight of the boat not the effort required to cruise through the water, the bulb nose won't help with starting, stopping and manouvring.

 

They also went for a cheaper option, the nose is not a proper bullet shape as it should be. It might be intersting for someone to do it properly some time.

 

John Squeers

Edited October 30, 2004 by John Orentas

[rustyduck]

So what we need is someone with a normal hulled narrowboat onto which we can fit a wooden bow-bulb to see how it performs.

 

Any would-be guinea-pigs out there?

[Paul Evans]

And the guinea-pigs are for........

 

Towing, rowing or turning the paddle wheel?

 

Here's a volunteer:

 

[rustyduck]

I'm happy if we don't tell the RSPCA, but I think that strapping a guinea-pig to the bows below the waterline can't be good for them. Not only that, you'd probably need a few of them to make a decent bow bulb.

[Paul Evans]

Little guinea pig aqualungs? Or little diving suits - the sort with screw down helmets and air lines? I bet John Squeers could suggest a suitable pump to keep 'em supplied and working!

[rustyduck]

An air pump for a fish tank would probably do it, although I would be a bit concerned that their little legs flapping about might interfere with the hydrodynamic effect that we are after.

 

On a slightly different tack - if efficiency is what we're after (and therefore economy) wouldn't be easier to just slow down a bit? A radical idea I know, but then I'm always happy to play with these off-the-wall ideas.

[John Orentas]

Rusty.

 

Slow down a bit ! I like to open her up and get to the destination before the fuel runs out.

 

John Squeers.

[rustyduck]

John,

 

There's something wrong in there, but I can't quite put my finger on it.....

[Paul Evans]

Their little legs flapping about might interfere with the hydrodynamic effect that we are after.

 

So now we need a training school for guinea pigs to teach them to swim efficiently....

[rustyduck]

Paul, this is straying perilously close to a previous thread on hamster power - and also so far off topic as to be in the next county.

 

Would it be better to have a separate thread on "rodent uses" - possibly in the virtual bar?

 

And no, I am not prepared to make little flippers for them. The little devils can just get on with it.

[Paul Evans]

You're right of course - guinea pigs ( or hamsters) have nothing to do with Josher, Bulbous, Pointy or any other type of bow. Whether we want another thread to discuss the uses to which little furry animals can be put is a subject that deserves a thread all of its own - so I'm off to the pub to start one.

[James York]

Sorry if im re-iterating a point here but a Josher boat was a Fellows, Morton and Clayton boat. So a Josher bow is as Maffi posted. FMC made that bow almost a trade mark and i have to admit it does look very good. As soon as i get enough money together for a new build i would have one of them