Gas Regulations and boats

[MtB]

Reading the Gas Safety (Installation and Use ) Regulations 1998, it looks to me as though pleasure craft are specifically excluded from the scope of the regulations. See Part A, 2. (5) (iii) of the Regulations. (To paraphrase, this bit says nothing in the regs shall apply to a vessel not requiring a national or international load line certificate unless it is used as a houseboat.)

 

So why is it widely thought that CORGI bods have to be employed to fit gas in boats? Which regulation says so?

 

Any comments, anyone?

 

Cheers, Mike

[John Orentas]

Hi Mike.

 

"So why is it widely thought that CORGI bods have to be employed to fit gas in boats? Which regulation says so"

 

The regulations do not say so, it is only the CORGI bods that say so.

 

If you are fitting out your own boat, be guided strictly by the Red Book, then you can't go wrong. You will find others along the way, electricians, plumbers, 'marine engineers', desk bound administrators all trying to make an easy living out of you. Consult them only if you feel a need to do so.

 

Much of the time you will know more than they do anyway.

Edited October 8, 2005 by John Orentas

[MtB]

Hi John,

 

Hmmmm.... I thought as much.

 

However, it's not just my own boat, I do work for other boat owners and new boat builders occasionally and I get paid for it. I'm wondering if I needn't have done my LPG ACS after all. It didn't prepare me very well for gas work on boats and I'm looking for some boat-specific training. Any courses you know of? Calor Gas seem to be the obvious choice but they don't make it easy to get in contact with the right people there!

 

The Red Book doesn't get down to the level of detail I need, e.g. my question today for a BSI. (Unless you know the procedure for soundness testing of course?)

[ChrisPy]

last time I was in B&Q warehouse I noticed the gas fittings next to the plumbing fittings. Someone had stuck a sign on the shelving to the effect that gas fittings should only be installed by a CORGI registered fitter. I asked a passing supervisor about it and told him that in my opinion it should read '... by a person competent to do so'. He laughed and said that no tradesman would buy at B&Q anyway, they would go to their normal wholesale outlets. He didn't tell me if the sticker was approved by the management or if it had been stuck on by a self-important CORGI man.

 

If B&Q stock gas fittings, that implies there are plenty of private individuals buying and presumably installing gas piping.

[John Orentas]

I can only say what my inspector did a couple of months ago. The standard aparently is 'zero leakage', he tested mine over 30 minutes, observing no change. The Red Book does not deal with testing proceedures for anything, but it does give an excellent guide for anyone building fitting out a boat.

 

I assume you are aware of the 'Contacts' in the back of the book BSSA/19/20

[MtB]

I can only say what my inspector did a couple of months ago.  The standard aparently is  'zero leakage', he tested mine over 30 minutes, observing no change. 

34071[/snapback]

 

Hmmm... even more interesting. I've never seen an installation that would pass a test that severe. Had he turned the gas bottle off properly?!

 

Did he do the let-by test first to make sure the gas bottle valve DID turn actually off properly?

 

Cheers, Mike

[Gary Peacock]

Hmmm... even more interesting. I've never seen an installation that would pass a test that severe. Had he turned the gas bottle off properly?!

 

Did he do the let-by test first to make sure the gas bottle valve DID turn actually off properly?

 

Cheers, Mike

34074[/snapback]

 

We do the LPG installation but have the system signed off by a CORGI boat qualified engineer. OEM manufacturers are considered competent and don't really need to do this but due to the nature of LPG we feel it is worth the expense.

 

If I was working on my own boat I would probably trust in my ability but where the public are concerned I would rather cover my arse and get a "professional" to say it's safe. (And get sued if it's not.)

[John Orentas]

Hmmm... even more interesting. I've never seen an installation that would pass a test that severe. Had he turned the gas bottle off properly?!

 

Did he do the let-by test first to make sure the gas bottle valve DID turn actually off properly?

 

Cheers, Mike

34074[/snapback]

 

 

Yes did all that, dropped the pressure to a touch below the regulated pressure.

[MtB]

We do the LPG installation but have the system signed off by a CORGI boat qualified engineer. OEM manufacturers are considered competent and don't really need to do this but due to the nature of LPG we feel it is worth the expense.

 

If I was working on my own boat I would probably trust in my ability but where the public are concerned I would rather cover my arse and get a "professional" to say it's safe. (And get sued if it's not.)

34078[/snapback]

 

 

Hi Gary,

 

Thanks for your reply. Interesting again!

 

Does a new boat not need a Boat Safety Certificate then?

 

When you say you get the system 'signed off', what exactly do you mean? Do you receive a formal certificate of some sort from your CORGI bod? If so. what is the title of the certificate? I should order some to use myself.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Gary Peacock]

Hi Gary,

 

Thanks for your reply. Interesting again!

 

Does a new boat not need a Boat Safety Certificate then?

 

When you say you get the system 'signed off', what exactly do you mean? Do you receive a formal certificate of some sort from your CORGI bod? If so. what is the title of  the certificate? I should order some to use myself.

 

Cheers, Mike

34082[/snapback]

 

Hi Mike

 

This can get very complicated but in simple terms a new boat with a Certificate of conformity to the Recreational Craft Directive is exempt from the BSS for the first 4 years from completion.

 

We get our CORGI chap to in effect test and guarantee that the gas installation meets the required ISO (BS EN ISO 10239) for LPG within the RCD. (In effect he is putting his name to that element of the Certificate that normally we would.)

 

Most builders and fitters these days seem to be doing all the work and testing themselves and they do appear to be within the law.

 

Remember the RCD is law the BSS isn't.

[lymmranger]

Clearly the true answer to the original question is

 

"do what the hell you want, because as proven on other threads nowt will happen to you anyway, because the regulations are policed by toothless gutless jobsworths"

 

Rayman - hows my anger coming on?

[MtB]

Remember the RCD is law the BSS isn't.

34094[/snapback]

 

So the RCD is the law then. Following the BSS means one is 'deemed to comply' though, presumably.

 

I did some homework on this once, but can't remember the details. Do recreational craft have to comply with the RCD all the time or only when brand new at the point of original sale? The latter I think, or the BSS would not need to be there.

 

What does the RCD have to say about LPG in boats? Is the RCD available online?

 

Cheers, Mike

[rayman]

Clearly the true answer to the original question is

 

"do what the hell you want, because as proven on other threads nowt will happen to you anyway, because the regulations are policed by toothless gutless jobsworths"

 

Rayman - hows my anger coming on?

34099[/snapback]

lymmranger,

your doin just fine, a couple more posts and i think wev'e cracked it

[ChrisPy]

Is the RCD available online?

 

Cheers, Mike

34110[/snapback]

yes, but it's meaningless legal jargon. but there are many discussion sites that draw out the meaning of the legal documents. Unfortunately the document leads you into as many BS or ISO standards as you wish (need) to comply with, and they are separate and expensive publications that again require expert interpretation.

 

I'm doing my own RCD, so I'm learning as I go along. In my view the best simple advice on a straightforward LPG installation is available from Calor Gas on their website. They advise on materials, installation, etc. Testing will always be more difficult though.

[Gary Peacock]

So the RCD is the law then. Following the BSS means one is 'deemed to comply' though, presumably.

 

I did some homework on this once, but can't remember the details. Do recreational craft have to comply with the RCD all the time or only when brand new at the point of original sale? The latter I think, or the BSS would not need to be there.

 

What does the RCD have to say about LPG in boats? Is the RC D available online?

 

Cheers, Mike

34110[/snapback]

 

In Europe the RCD seems to be the be all and end all, the UK fell in line and made it UK law but fails to enforce it. The BSS duplicates some features of the RCD but is the plaything of the waterways managers BW, Enviroment Agency and a few more privately owned waterways. If the RCD was administered correctly the BSS would seem to be pretty pointless duplication of the RCD.

[JonA]

In my view the best simple advice on a straightforward LPG installation is available from Calor Gas on their website. They advise on materials, installation, etc. Testing will always be more difficult though.

 

Have you got the address for that - I couldn't see it, only stuff on oil storage tanks ! maybe I'm on the wrong site.

 

Cheers,

Jon

[ChrisPy]

Have you got the address for that - I couldn't see it, only stuff on oil storage tanks ! maybe I'm on the wrong site.

 

Cheers,

Jon

www.calormarineshop.co.uk

[TeeELL]

Mike,

beware the CORGI. I paid for a supposedly 'Boat certified' CORGI gas fitter to do the installation on my boat (very simple bottle to cooker job through a couple of bulkheads). Imagine then my surprise when the BSS inspector failed the installation!! Why? there were no less than 19 yes nineteen joints in a run of 7 metres. I ripped the lot out (having photographed the installation) and, following the instructions from the BSS inspector (a CORGI qualified fitter), replaced the lot myself. Ended up with 5 joints (one more than I hoped because of the need of a 10mm to 8mm converter). Bottom line - I used common sense, followed the advice of my BSS inspector (who over-signed my work after testing) and cannot find the rougue who did the duff installation.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

 

Does a new boat not need a Boat Safety Certificate then?

 

Cheers, Mike

 

A new boat that may be sold by the constructor within the first five years of its life, will need CE marking according to the law upheld, or otherwise, by Trading Standards. (not BSS or navigation authorities)

 

Due to the same piece of legislation, a BSS examiner cannot put a certificate on a craft without it first being CE marked . That is unless the craft is specifically intended for self-ownership by the constructor within the first five years.

 

RCD declarations

Boats with suitable Declarations of Conformity to RCD are currently accepted by most navigation authorities for licensing/registration purposes, but after four years, items of risk are checked for deterioration and inappropriate new installation, alteration or poor maintenance, and thence every four years after that, through the BSS.

 

The RCD declaration would need to include statements about constuction of the gas system to BS 5482-3 or ISO 10239. I believe there's advice about the content of the declaration on the Dti website, but haven't checked it recently. I believe the general advice is not to mix and match gas standards, but I cannot confirm this.

 

RE CORGI - that stat instrument (2451 1998) also mentions craft used a dwellings. That's why unless and until all the BSS examiner are CORGI registered (a signifcant increase in numbers that are, is on the cards for next year), a non-registered one cannot undertake a manometer test on a boat used as a dwelling, a hire craft, workboat, trip boat or similar commercial/passenger carrying purposes. To do otherwise, he or she may risk a heavy fine and be a threat to his or her livelyhood, especially if there was cause for an HSE investigation such as a fire or explosion caused by gas on that boat thereafter until the next test.

 

Anyone using the BSS website as guidance for installation will find more on construction of gas systems in the 2002 edition than the 2005 version, especially when also reading sections 7 and 8 of appendix F - Standards (page A11 onwards) (www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/appendixfstandardspart7LPGinstallations_185.asp) as well as parts 7 and 8 of that edition (www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/part7lpginstallations_97.asp). BUT, this information is no substitute for proper reference to the complete standards, just a useful pointer.

[Gary Peacock]

A new boat that may be sold by the constructor within the first five years of its life, will need CE marking according to the law upheld, or otherwise, by Trading Standards.

 

It's a shame nobody got around to telling West Yorkshire trading standards that!

 

Not surprisingly they weren't too happy to discuss it with the press recently but that's somebody else's story to tell.

[lymmranger]

Nicely pointed out Gary...

 

I was pondering asking Rob how he neatly sidestepped my question which remains unanswered by any of the official bodies who I know peruse this forum. Mind you it appears to be a requirement of the job (being able to reply to a question without actually answering it!)

 

Do I need to rephrase my question do you think?

[Paul Evans]

What was your original question? The only one I've found on this thread is:

Rayman - how's my anger coming on?

And the answer to that was - very nicely thank you!

[Big COL]

Nicely pointed out Gary...

 

I was pondering asking Rob how he neatly sidestepped my question which remains unanswered by any of the official bodies who I know peruse this forum. Mind you it appears to be a requirement of the job (being able to reply to a question without actually answering it!)

 

Do I need to rephrase my question do you think?

 

Paul has answered you correctly, I would like to add that you read Rob's post and try and understand it.

I am not aware of anyone on this forum that has declared that they are employed by Trading Standards.

Rob has always been as helpful as possible, Your statement (rant) doesn't warrant the courtesy of a reply from anybody.

[lymmranger]

Big Col you miss my point,

I agree that Rob has always done his very best and thankfully and always politely, explained the rules in "English".

My "rant" is not with Rob per se.

My rant is not that rules and regs exist, after all without them we exist in anarchy (as I previously suggested)

(and yes I have religiously followed them myself.)

 

My rant is why?

 

Yes I am being unfair to Rob in that clearly he would like to keep his job but he stuck his head above the parapet as an official voice of the BSS and should therefore accept being shot at (not literally Rob!)

He has not explained why we should follow the standards, when clearly the standards have been proven to be spectacularly unenforceable.

I have politely asked the same question several times and been ignored several times, I have now attempted to rudely ask the same question, Doing so got a response from you didnt it?

 

However I beg to disagreee with you... Rob did not answer my question

 

I repeat it... "what is the point?"

 

[Big COL]

Big Col you miss my point,

I agree that Rob has always done his very best and thankfully and always politely, explained the rules in "English".

My "rant" is not with Rob per se.

My rant is not that rules and regs exist, after all without them we exist in anarchy (as I previously suggested)

(and yes I have religiously followed them myself.)

 

My rant is why?

 

Yes I am being unfair to Rob in that clearly he would like to keep his job but he stuck his head above the parapet as an official voice of the BSS and should therefore accept being shot at (not literally Rob!)

He has not explained why we should follow the standards, when clearly the standards have been proven to be spectacularly unenforceable.

I have politely asked the same question several times and been ignored several times, I have now attempted to rudely ask the same question, Doing so got a response from you didnt it?

 

However I beg to disagreee with you... Rob did not answer my question

 

I repeat it... "what is the point?"

 

 

Hi Lymmranger

 

One of us has lost the plot . It may well be me If I explain my understanding of yet another complex/double standard set of regulations, I would be grateful for some clarity on where my understanding is wrong.

To quote Gary[ the RCD is law the BSS is not ] The RCD to my understanding applies to professional boat builders whereby they complete a craft following the RCD guide lines. Any craft completed under these conditions is deemed to be safe in accordance to gas and electrical regs and so on. This then exempts this craft for the need of a BSS for the first four years. Any problems arising are dealt with by Trading Standards, but only if they are notified in the first twelve months, which beggars the question why is it exempt from a BSS for 4years when Trading Standards will only enforce it for a period of twelve months.

Any problem found in the following three years appears to be unenforceable unless civil action is taken, this must be a short coming on the part of Trading Standards it has nothing to do with the BSS.

The BSS is a set of guide lines that a boat must comply with to obtain a BSS certificate. Providing that the boat is not to be used by members of the public you are then free to do your own installations Gas included. In the case of a new boat and a self fitout not being under the RCD regs the boat has to have a BSS inspection on completion for a BSS certificate to be issued, This is on the understanding that you do not sell the boat in the first 5Years.

Any thing out of place will have to be rectified before the certificate is issued, to my way of thinking if the above concerning the RCD is correct, then a self build would appear to be a safer boat. This is why I cannot see your point about the BSS office being answerable.

There is a problem that in the 4 year period owners do their own thing and I have seen Some horrendous alterations on boats, where gas pipes have been repaired with rubber hose and hose clips, I did some repairs on one boat and the owner had a gas bottle inside the saloon connected to an open fire by rubber pipe just pushed on to copper pipe with no hose clips, he said thats OK thats how I had it in my caravan.

The BSS is more relaxed today as they have made a lot of the former regs advise only. Thats the way I understand these sets of regs, please correct me where I have it wrong.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Big COL