Noisy Vetus gearbox after battery charging.

[Guest]

I am probably lighting the blue touch paper here, and possibly will be accused of scaremongering, but: I have just been talking to a person who lives on a NB fitted with a Vetus 417 and Technodrive box, in which the gearbox has become rather noisy. He has been told by the agents that as it is a "splash" gearbox, that prolonged running out of gear has caused the bearing on the main input shaft to be starved of lubrication, hence the noise. It should it seems be run in gear. I am interested if anybody has heard of this as we have a Vetus too.

[valrene9600]

I have a vetus and the handbook says it must be run in gear for battery charging. I understand this prevents glazing on the bores.

Many people have said to me as they pass that it`s a lot of .......toffee and they run in neutral. But as i said to them Vetus make them so they must know what`s best for the engine they make.

[Sir Nibble]

I have said this before, but I will say it again.

Engine manufacturer says engine must be run in gear for battery charging.

BW say engine must not be run in gear whilst moored.

Ergo: engine is not suitable for use in BW waters, QED.

[Timleech]

I have said this before, but I will say it again.

Engine manufacturer says engine must be run in gear for battery charging.

BW say engine must not be run in gear whilst moored.

Ergo: engine is not suitable for use in BW waters, QED.

 

It's been suggested to me that the Technodrive box isn't well suited to canal use, with its regular manoevring for locks etc., but I couldn't possibly comment (although I do have one, more by accident than design)

 

Tim

[mayalld]

I have said this before, but I will say it again.

Engine manufacturer says engine must be run in gear for battery charging.

BW say engine must not be run in gear whilst moored.

Ergo: engine is not suitable for use in BW waters, QED.

Not so.

 

The engine is suitable for use on BW waters for the purposes for which it is sold.

 

It is a propulsion engine with ancillary battery charging capability.

 

It wasn't sold as a stationary generating engine.

 

If you require the ability to generate electricity without moving, you need to buy appropriate kit.

[John Orentas]

I have a vetus and the handbook says it must be run in gear for battery charging. I understand this prevents glazing on the bores.

Many people have said to me as they pass that it`s a lot of .......toffee and they run in neutral. But as i said to them Vetus make them so they must know what`s best for the engine they make.

 

 

Hi Valre.

 

You should try and develop a more cynical outlook, for one thing Vetus do not manufacture the engine, they merely paint them a pretty colour and fit bits and pieces to them, marinising in other words. This bore glazing thing has been around as long as there have been engines with bores, it's another one of those largely theoretical things that can never be proved or disproved.

[Timleech]

Hi Valre.

 

You should try and develop a more cynical outlook, for one thing Vetus do not manufacture the engine, they merely paint them a pretty colour and fit bits and pieces to them, marinising in other words. This bore glazing thing has been around as long as there have been engines with bores, it's another one of those largely theoretical things that can never be proved or disproved.

 

Largely theoretical ?

Entirely real. I can't comment on whether the Vetus/Mitsubishis are prone to it, but it really can happen, with some engines, especially using modern high-spec oil.

If you choose not to believe me, that is up to you

 

Tim

[Guest]

Knew this would happen I was asking about the gearbox and the "splash lubrication." Any ideas?

[bottle]

Hi Catweasel

 

From a totally non technical amateur point of view then I would think the agent is correct.

 

The shaft being driven at all times by the engine (lay shaft??) would not be lubricated if it was a 'splash' lubricated gearbox.

 

[Guest]

It's been suggested to me that the Technodrive box isn't well suited to canal use, with its regular manoevring for locks etc., but I couldn't possibly comment (although I do have one, more by accident than design)

 

Tim

mmm....... does yours clunk when it goes into gear?

 

I have a vetus and the handbook says it must be run in gear for battery charging. I understand this prevents glazing on the bores.

Many people have said to me as they pass that it`s a lot of .......toffee and they run in neutral. But as i said to them Vetus make them so they must know what`s best for the engine they make.

Could I ask which Vetus engine/box you have?

 

Hi Catweasel

 

From a totally non technical amateur point of view then I would think the agent is correct.

 

The shaft being driven at all times by the engine (lay shaft??) would not be lubricated if it was a 'splash' lubricated gearbox.

 

Thanks for you input Bottle.

[Timleech]

Hi Catweasel

 

From a totally non technical amateur point of view then I would think the agent is correct.

 

The shaft being driven at all times by the engine (lay shaft??) would not be lubricated if it was a 'splash' lubricated gearbox.

 

 

Not neccessarily true. It would if the box were well designed.

Parsons gearboxes, of pious & immortal memory, were splash lubricated. They had a big oil collector/thrower ring on the input shaft, this picked up oil from the bottom & threw it up to a crude gallery sort of thing under the lid, whence it ran down to the places where it was needed.

Of the Technodrive, and what arrangements it has, I know nerthing.

 

Tim

[bottle]

Not neccessarily true. It would if the box were well designed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SNIP

 

Tim

 

AH!!!

 

Now there's the rub is it a well designed box

[Guest]

Not neccessarily true. It would if the box were well designed.

Parsons gearboxes, of pious & immortal memory, were splash lubricated. They had a big oil collector/thrower ring on the input shaft, this picked up oil from the bottom & threw it up to a crude gallery sort of thing under the lid, whence it ran down to the places where it was needed.

Of the Technodrive, and what arrangements it has, I know nerthing.

 

Tim

Interesting, cause I run the Vetus/technodrive (in neutral) sometimes for battery charging, but at 1200RPM (better output from alternator). The guy I spoke to runs his at lower revs. He is having probs., but mine seems OK. So perhaps the higher RPM is throwing more oil?

[John Orentas]

There are no gearboxes that are designed and built to be suitable for canal boats at least not in the last fifty years or so, they are designed around the requirements of sea boats which are required to go into reverse only the occasional time when going in and coming out of harbour. That is why you will see that your box is rated for an engine of a power that is three or four times bigger that the one it is fitted to.

 

The engine marinisers have experience of this and fit gearboxes that they think are robust enough to withstand all the banging in and out of gear that we subject them to.

[Ewart Hodgson]

I use a Parsons (non-reduction) gearbox, and the splash lubrication works very effectively when the gearbox is in neutral (I once unscrewed the dipstick to check oil level under these conditions. You only do it once....).

[Timleech]

There are no gearboxes that are designed and built to be suitable for canal boats at least not in the last fifty years or so, they are designed around the requirements of sea boats which are required to go into reverse only the occasional time when going in and coming out of harbour. That is why you will see that your box is rated for an engine of a power that is three or four times bigger that the one it is fitted to.

 

The engine marinisers have experience of this and fit gearboxes that they think are robust enough to withstand all the banging in and out of gear that we subject them to.

 

Oh yeah??

 

Vetus M4.17, 42 bhp @ 3000 rpm

http://www.abcpm.co.uk/vetus/diesel/

 

Technodrive TMC60, as fitted to the Vetus M4.17 (that's what is on mine)

'Pleasure craft' rating 47 bhp @3000 rpm

'intermediate' rating 40 bhp @ 3000,

'continuous' 26 bhp @ 2300.

 

http://www.technodrive.it/italy/invertitor...epl_TMC_60E.pdf

 

Hardly 'overrated' in my book.

Only just big enough, more like.

 

Tim

[valrene9600]

I have the Vetus 4.15 together with technodrive g`box, TMC40 i think. Raining hard here in cheshire so not about to look.

Also it has the Vetus water lubricated prop shaft assembly. Now this gets it`s water via a tube from the weed hatch which is fine as you cruise or run in gear stationery. So if i run out of gear to charge batt`s then the prop shaft gear gets no water to cool it and will overheat, which is on top of Vetus instructions re bore glaze another reason to charge batt`s in gear.

[John Orentas]

I have the Vetus 4.15 together with technodrive g`box, TMC40 i think. Raining hard here in cheshire so not about to look.

Also it has the Vetus water lubricated prop shaft assembly. Now this gets it`s water via a tube from the weed hatch which is fine as you cruise or run in gear stationery. So if i run out of gear to charge batt`s then the prop shaft gear gets no water to cool it and will overheat, which is on top of Vetus instructions re bore glaze another reason to charge batt`s in gear.

 

 

 

Good grief, never thought of that. Even worse, sitting here at home 25 miles from the boat it has just occurred to me that not only is my stern tube not being lubricated the oil pump in my engine isn't doing anything either, no oil to the bores, not even to the big ends. Must get over there first thing in the morning.

[Hairy-Neil]

Good grief, never thought of that.

 

LoL @ John Orentas......

[mayalld]

I have the Vetus 4.15 together with technodrive g`box, TMC40 i think. Raining hard here in cheshire so not about to look.

Also it has the Vetus water lubricated prop shaft assembly. Now this gets it`s water via a tube from the weed hatch which is fine as you cruise or run in gear stationery. So if i run out of gear to charge batt`s then the prop shaft gear gets no water to cool it and will overheat, which is on top of Vetus instructions re bore glaze another reason to charge batt`s in gear.

 

Pardon?

 

If you are running out of gear then the prop shaft won't be turning, so it won't overheat!

[valrene9600]

Yes ok i f..... up. I am just a virgin boater as i said before. Survived all my working life with the trades i knew and now i`m trying to learn as much as poss to survive the rest of my life.

My deepest respects to all the people who have years of boating and mechanical experience.

Just give me break while i learn.

Still made some chuckle and that`s not a bad thing.

THANKS

[John Orentas]

I have said this before, but I will say it again.

Engine manufacturer says engine must be run in gear for battery charging.

BW say engine must not be run in gear whilst moored.

Ergo: engine is not suitable for use in BW waters, QED.

 

 

It occurred to me only this morning, has anyone actually seen in print an instruction from a reputable engine manufacturer that you should run your engine in gear. I'm not talking about your local chandler slouching across his counter explaining why he has yet to find the fault in your engine or your friendly local mechanic who can't get to grips with your problem and is reluctant to investigate.

 

The canteen culture of engine mechanics always maintains that bore glazing is a genuine problem, I don't have any strong views either way but I do know it is a hell of a good excuse for not fixing an engine fault and I do know also that many of these 'age old mysteries', whether in engineering or anything else eventually turn out to be totally spurious.

 

Please let us not have any more replies simply stating 'I've been working on engines for 35 years and I know this thing exists so you will just have to take my word for it'. There is too much 'magic' in canal boats.

[Hairy-Neil]

Still made some chuckle and that`s not a bad thing.

THANKS

 

Thanks for the laugh and for being ok about us chuckling at your expense....

[John Orentas]

I have said this before, but I will say it again.

Engine manufacturer says engine must be run in gear for battery charging.

BW say engine must not be run in gear whilst moored.

Ergo: engine is not suitable for use in BW waters, QED.

 

 

It occurred to me only this morning, has anyone actually seen in print an instruction from a reputable engine manufacturer that you should run your engine in gear and any mention even in passing of 'Bore Glazing'. I'm not talking here about your local chandler slouching across his counter explaining why he has yet to find the fault in your engine or your friendly local mechanic who can't get to grips with your problem and is reluctant to investigate.

 

The canteen culture of engine mechanics always maintains that bore glazing is a genuine problem, I don't have any strong views either way but I do know it is a hell of a good excuse for not fixing an engine fault and I do know also that many of these 'age old mysteries', whether in engineering or anything else eventually turn out to be totally spurious.

 

Please let us not have any more replies simply stating 'I've been working on engines for 35 years and I know this thing exists so you will just have to take my word for it'. There is too much 'magic' in canal boats.

Edited June 21, 2007 by John Orentas

[dor]

Please let us not have any more replies simply stating 'I've been working on engines for 35 years and I know this thing exists so you will just have to take my word for it'.

 

But John, this is just how you reply to so many other people's posts.