Shell Quality.

[david and julie]

What means the most when buying a Narrowboat,is it the perceived quality of the shell or what you get for your money.

 

If you you saw 2 same size/age/engine spec/and fit out boats for sale. One was supposed top quality shell, and the other was mass produced, but had an Electrolux and an electric bow thruster. Which would you buy?

 

The reason I ask is because you can do the second on a scouse shell compared to the more expensive ones for not much more money.

 

Does it make much difference what the make the shell is when you actually come to sell it?

[bottle]

Does it make much difference what the make the shell is when you actually come to sell it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would say yes.

[David Schweizer]

It really depends on what you mean by a mass produced shell. Some such as Colecraft or Reeves are well built and maintain a high re-sale value, whilst some others do not. Think of it as if it was a house, would you turn down a really well built house in a good neighbourhood that could do with a new kitchen, in favour of a mediocre house in a poor area on the basis that the second house had a newly fitted kitchen? I suspect not.

 

Personally I would always go for the higher quality shell and fit the extra equipment when it can be afforded. I admit bow thrusters are not an easy retro fit, but think seriously whether you really need one before making a decision on the basis of whether one is fitted - most of us have managed quite well without one for years. All other on board equipment can be aquired second hand if neccessary.

[John Orentas]

I go along with David, remember the only thing that can't be changed at a later stage is the shell, spend as much as you can reasonably afford on that even at the expense of the other features, they can come along later you will then have a better idea of what you really need.

[Gary Peacock]

I had a look at a brand new Liverpool Boats Hull this week far from a thing of beauty in my eyes. (But I would have to say that wouldn't I!)

But saying that it was functional and well built for the price. So I did some sums, If we were to build a copy to exactly the same specification and standard for the same price we would just about break even.

 

The saving Liverpool Boats make over us and most other builders must be made in the same way Sam Colt and Henry Ford decided it should be done, by mass production. I don't really see why mass produced should equate to inferior.

 

Should we consider a mass produced hull a poor investment after all any future resale value will only reflect the initial value when new.

If I had a customer with the requirerment I could provide 6 hulls in 8 weeks using mass production methods and still maintain quality while increasing profits, not only boat builders can build hulls you know. (Watch this space!)

 

The market is changing, views and to a certain extent the snobbery/ludditeism of boat ownership will have to change too.

 

(I will now go jump in the river in punishment for defending Scouce boats. )

 

Gary

[DHutch]

Id spend a dew extra quid and have the quality shell AND the bow thruster, both are important (although the shell a lot more so, becuase you can always add a thruster)

 

Daniel

[david and julie]

I'm not suggesting that I am in an "either" or an "or" situation of having to choose because of budget. What I am saying is, how do you think potential buyers in the future would see it. To quote the earlier house anology, no I wouldn't consider the kitchen of prime importance. However, developers go to great lengths with laminate floors/power showers and stainless kitchens etc, for that reason. Same with cars, an ageing model line up may offer air con,alloys,CD player etc, to attract buyers.

 

I suppose what I am saying is, bearing in mind the ammount of "new" people interested in narrowboating and that some will not appreciate the finer points of quality engineering. Will many of them just see the more "extra's" the better?

 

Gary summed it up with this.

 

The market is changing, views and to a certain extent the snobbery/ludditeism of boat ownership will have to change too

 

At the end of the day the guy who prefers(and can afford) perfection in his boat, complete with vintage engine, would more than likely buy new anyway, so that he can get precisely the spec he wants.

 

I am curious though about any potential future buyer who may well see certain home comforts as essential, even whilst afloat. I suspect many will also have an eye on what they see as value for money.

[John Orentas]

It's all to do with style and condition, age is secondary, so is to some extent what many of us now think of as little luxuries, many may seem a bit dated when you come to sell the boat. It could be said that avoiding the trendy and fashionable is a good idea.

 

As with the purchase of houses and most other things, don't think in terms of making an investment, build and maintain a nice boat that you like, when the time comes to sell others will like it too.

Edited March 1, 2005 by John Orentas

[Oliver]

When we were looking at used boats we found that some of the 'mass-produced' ones were more expensive than custom built boats of the same age and similar spec. We even saw one which was more expensive than we ended up paying for our custom built boat, even though the mass-produced one was a poorer spec.

 

Another thing we found was that one brokerage/marina seemed to be charging more for the boats they were handling than commensurate boats at other places - and they were still turning the stock over quite quickly.

[Gary Stacey]

Nothing wrong with liverpool boat shells in my mind. Have seen quite a few and they seem solid, straight have reasonabley clean welds and as you say are quite cheap. There is as Gary pointed out quite a lot of snobbery regarding certain boats/styles etc from certain quarters and this needs to change. What about one of Gary's barge style boats what price for one of those Gary, do they come in at a competitive price?. Not a trad but there again there is no such thing!

[bottle]

I am sorry to say that boats are going the way caravans did back in the 80's more and more luxury and gimicks.

 

BUT and it is a big but the quality makers were still quality makers.

 

Alas some went to the wall because they would not compromise on quality. With caravans you got what you were given you did not have a choice on design. I know if you are buying a used boat compromise is necessary. A boat can be refitted but I do not think that would be a good idea with a caravan.

 

After that ramble I think to buy the best shell you can afford, new or used, is the best idea.

[enigma]

Buy the best shell you can afford. You can change the interior but not the shell.

[David Schweizer]

There is a lot of talk here about value for money, and a bit about quality of build etc., but precious little about quality of design both above and below the waterline. Most of the "budget" boats that I have seen would best be described as a brick with a pointed end. There has been little attention paid to how well it will swim in the water and even less on how attractive it looks. These are both practical and asthetic considerations, which occupy more of the builder's time, and consequently cost more. And Gary, it is nothing to do with snobbery to apprecaite a thing of beauty, but if that is being a Luddite then I am quite happy to be called a Luddite.

[timboharticus]

I see some new TV programmes on the way "Changing Boats", "A Boat Abroad",

 

"Flog that Boat", "Boat Ladder".

[Gary Peacock]

Nothing wrong with liverpool boat shells in my mind. Have seen quite a few and they seem solid, straight have reasonabley clean welds and as you say are quite cheap. There is as Gary pointed out quite a lot of snobbery regarding certain boats/styles etc from certain quarters and this needs to change. What about one of Gary's barge style boats what price for one of those Gary, do they come in at a competitive price?. Not a trad but there again there is no such thing!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bit awkward that one strictly speaking we don't sell hulls, but this company does-

Ledgard Bridge Boats Limited

You can find prices for hulls etc there.

 

Gary (Wearing a different hat!)

Edited March 2, 2005 by Gary Peacock

[Gary Stacey]

'And Gary, it is nothing to do with snobbery to apprecaite a thing of beauty, but if that is being a Luddite then I am quite happy to be called a Luddite.'

 

Nothing to do with appreciating a goood quailty product more to do with peole who look down there nose at those who cannot afford or choose not to buy one of the 'top' names. And no I am not saying you do this but I have met those who do. There are lots of quality shells to be had out there, it could be to some people that what is on the inside is of more importance.

 

Gary

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

Im in agreement wth David Schweizer.

 

And If you want a bow thruster, but cant afford to put one in straight away, have the bow tube fitted and fit a BT when you can afford it(like me!)

 

Gary Stacey: It depends on who you look up to as being "your ideal boatbuilder"? You might think blah blah boatbuilders, build the best boats since god was a lad and I might think they suck big time..... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes.

 

I paid a bit extra for this boat, I loved the design and I found the bit extra for it.....

 

If you cant afford a new shell by your "ideal" boatbuilder, how about buying one second hand? you can always alter what's inside.

[Richard Bustens]

But if you have the bow thruster tube fitted dont forget that it is under water and take off the blanking plate to fit the thruster without taking out of the water.

[Gary Peacock]

A bit of a money maker this having the tube but no bow thruster fitted!

 

I have seen a couple of these where it's just a piece of thin blank tube (Nice and cheap). You need to make sure it is the correct thickness at least equal to the hull side plates and does have a fitting/blanking plate in place, also make sure the cabling is fitted during the build.

 

People like to take others peoples money so be careful.

 

Gary

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

to fit the bow thruster, it needs to come out of the water (according to the boatbuilder),because you have to insert the thruster, up to your arm pit, in the bow tube....

[wynd lass(nb.Black Pearl)]

I saw our's before it was fitted.....

Still cost plenty of brass though........hell....

[Richard Bustens]

You havent just got a tube have you Wyndy. there is a flange on the top with a plate bolted on it ?

[John Orentas]

Many of the early bow thrusters, 20 years ago and more, were fitted into a similar arrangement to a weed hatch. If it got fouled up or needed service of some kind you could simply undo a couple of clamps and lift the complete thing out, no need ever to lift the boat out of the water.

 

The newer designs seem to have gone backwards.

[David Schweizer]

'And Gary, it is nothing to do with snobbery to apprecaite a thing of beauty, but if that is being a Luddite then I am quite happy to be called a Luddite.'

 

Nothing to do with appreciating a goood quailty product more to do with peole who look down there nose at those who cannot afford or choose not to buy one of the 'top' names. And no I am not saying you do this but I have met those who do. There are lots of quality shells to be had out there, it could be to some people that what is on the inside is of more importance.

 

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not quite sure what your point is here Gary, surely the most important thing about a boat is that it functions well as a boat, and much of that has to do with hull design. Some of the cheaper boats pay very little attention to this and as a consequence do not swim well. This is fine if you plan to remain static most of the time but if, like me, you spend much of the time cruising then the shape of the hull is as imoprtant if not more important than an elegant interior.

 

By the way I do not aprove of people turning their noses up,at cheaper boats because they do not carry one of the "top names" Many people have limited resources and will buy a boat that they can afford without breaking the bank. I personally could not afford a new boat by even the cheapest shell builder, so I have a 23 year old boat built by one of the better builders of the day, and I have no plans to replace it.

[david and julie]

David Schweizer Posted Today, 10:31 PM

 

Nothing to do with appreciating a goood quailty product more to do with peole who look down there nose at those who cannot afford or choose not to buy one of the 'top' names.

 

It would be nice to know what is exactly good quality and not just a "name" though. I am currently looking for a 50ft trad sailaway and am now down to choosing between Simon Piper and Jonathon Wilson. They both look OK to me, but for different reasons though. Having said that scouse boat at some £3500 cheaper looked fair too(just more ripples etc) by the time you've caught a few walls or locks though the others may well look the same. This is why I asked my original question whether a scouser with"extra's" could be seen as better value.

 

I come from an engineering background and can tell good welds and fabrication from bad. The main difference I have seen between these three is a scouse has 4 mm sides and the other 2 have 5mm and I understand why. I know little about swims though. What else should I be looking for and am I on the right lines with my choices?