Another disapointed customer

[fuzzyduck]

Well I can fix a motor, do wiring (don't tell chris w) made a new folding screen, I really am fitting a new stereo, am about to replace some windows, and do a complete paint Job.

 

 

it's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than the old one.

 

 

Edit, oh and I can do GRP repairs, as evidenced where the small vetus vent has replaced the flue for a paloma

 

Edited March 28, 2007 by fuzzyduck

[Oliver]

Can this be taken as a general response to this entire stream ( and several others actually) rather than this one contribution. ........

Cheers

Phil

 

Phil

 

Don't understand what you mean about my post about the hull number, etc. Perhaps you could elaborate (PM if you want).

 

My first involvement with the canals was 22 years ago when I worked for BWB. That got us started hiring boats. About 8 years ago we got a share in a shared ownerships scheme and in 2003 we embarked on having our own boat built - we used a boat fitter who bought in a shell. Our original plan was to buy secondhand but that didn't work out for reasons I've posted in another thread. All our thought processes and how we went about things is covered in detail on our website.

 

Cheers

[smileypete]

Can this be taken as a general response to this entire stream ( and several others actually) rather than this one contribution. I would love to know how long members of this group who own canal boats have actually been on the waterways. How many are new boat owners and how many have had many boats over a long period. This is for my interest only because I`m forming theories that I would really like to see tested! Some have obviously been around a long time and have the air of those I used to know years ago , others are obviously coming at the whole canal thing from a different direction to mine. I`ve long felt that there is a culture clash looming . It won`t last long because the outcome is plain to see and I think our little world will change irreversibly.

You may think this is irrelevant , and it may well be so , but I thought it appropriate this time not to start another topic when deep down I feel this one is , in part ( and in no way condoning bad practice or dishonesty ) becoming symtomatic of what some of us see as a gradual loss of something special.

Cheers

Phil

Hi,

 

The boats in the latest two threads have included a jacuzzi and corner bath. I've got no objections to mod-cons myself, but I don't think they would be all that practical on a narrowboat.

 

I'd expect they would need bigger tanks, calorifers, water heaters, plus better ways to get rid of the steam. All this needs extra budget, which pushes the price up and/or means compromises have to be made elsewhere.

 

(Ducks incoming from narrowboaters with corner baths :ph34r: )

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Chertsey]

Can this be taken as a general response to this entire stream ( and several others actually) rather than this one contribution. I would love to know how long members of this group who own canal boats have actually been on the waterways. How many are new boat owners and how many have had many boats over a long period. This is for my interest only because I`m forming theories that I would really like to see tested! Some have obviously been around a long time and have the air of those I used to know years ago , others are obviously coming at the whole canal thing from a different direction to mine. I`ve long felt that there is a culture clash looming . It won`t last long because the outcome is plain to see and I think our little world will change irreversibly.

You may think this is irrelevant , and it may well be so , but I thought it appropriate this time not to start another topic when deep down I feel this one is , in part ( and in no way condoning bad practice or dishonesty ) becoming symtomatic of what some of us see as a gradual loss of something special.

Cheers

Phil

 

Only about four years Phil, but I think, and sincerely hope, that I am more in sympathy with you and your ilk than even some who have been around a lot longer. It'll be interesting to see whether you find there's a strong correlation between length of time on the waterways and commitment to (what you, and I think, I, consider to be) the things that matter.

 

Is it better to have known the 'good times' and watch them disappear, or to have missed them altogether, as I fear I have? (and feel guilty that I wasn't there doing my bit.)

 

And coming back to an earlier point of yours, why do the glossy mags (in their reviews) collude in describing boatfitters as boatbuilders? Fitting is surely an honourable trade in its own right ... but having been privileged over the past year to watch a very good builder at work on various projects (not one of the ones you mentioned but I would guess in a similar league and position), and getting the chance to really look at different sorts of boats, old and new, in and out of the water, it beggars belief that people can so undervalue the significance of getting the hull (I'm not even sure I like the term 'shell' for some reason) right. But then a lot of people live in bloody horrible houses and don't seem to notice, as long as they've got their washing machine and flat screen TV...

 

Sorry. Rambling. Will stop now.

[Gary Peacock]

Hi,

 

The boats in the latest two threads have included a jacuzzi and corner bath. I've got no objections to mod-cons myself, but I don't think they would be all that practical on a narrowboat.

 

I'd expect they would need bigger tanks, calorifers, water heaters, plus better ways to get rid of the steam. All this needs extra budget, which pushes the price up and/or means compromises have to be made elsewhere.

 

(Ducks incoming from narrowboaters with corner baths :ph34r: )

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

One of the main problems here is the state of the market, you can read the adverts listen to the sales pitch at the shows but the general narrowboat market is in S*** State and is now being largely propped up by the residential boat market, this in itself is a double edged sword obviously a lot of the residential type owners want boats with lots more goodies and this makes for more expensive boats with potentially more profits for the builder.

 

The downside is builders have to adapt to building more complex boats (A lot of fitters have to buy in these skills.) and over time building 10 cheap boats a year becomes far less attractive than doing just 7 expensive ones.

 

We increase our prices every three months now and it's the only way to stay in business when your selling a boat for a fixed contract price that isn't going to be built until a year in the future, if you don't keep a very close eye on the pricing you can easily end up building a boat at a loss. (3 years ago when the steel prices rocketed some builders were only making about £500.00 profit on a hull!)

 

I am always puzzled when looking in the magazines how many of the large glossy adds have been the same price for 2 or 3 years! There is now way you can do this without dramatically reducing your profit over that period and I doubt that is the case.

What you do find is a trend for builders to go bust with full order books but no cash to carry on to me that indicates they don't price correctly and operate at a loss?

 

If I was looking at starting a new boat building business now I would look to build only 2 bespoke boats a year in the £130K bracket with the smallest premises I could find to fit the boat into with maybe 1 or 2 staff. I wouldn't build the hulls and would probably not involve a boat builder in doing this but would contract it out maybe outside the UK to an engineering company capable of doing it. Without the silly overheads and wages involved in building large numbers of boats per year and not having to build the hulls it would probably make for a fairly attractive business. (Providing you can secure 2 builds a year and without reputation that can be hard!)

[Phil Speight]

Im not quite sure what we're trying to say here in the last few posts....is it only newbie first time boaters who cant fix their own engines who fall foul of dodgy boat builders ???? I doubt that very much.

Rgds

Les

Quite right - but that`s not what I`m thinking about. Indeed I`m not sure myself ! The canal world has changed a lot in recent years and I sometimes wonder if it`s struggling to keep up. Please don`t think that this means new comers should expect to be ripped off! I just don`t remember it happening as often thirty or so years ago when boats were simpler and the vast majority of boaters were driven by enthusiasm for the canal world and it`s ways as were the people providing them with goods and services. Nowadays many of us appear to have altogether different expectations, demands and ambitions - we`re either eroding or simply ignoring the fact that one of the canal`s most significant features is that it is a different place. It used to be , until quite recently , a different world in fact , with it`s own history, culture and etiquette . What`s happening now isn`t wrong , it`s just a change and some of us think it`s spoiling the world we live and work in. Others won`t agree , and that`s fine and perfectly understandable - but when we were rather more quaint and "rustic" in our ways , before up to date business practices and "business" men arrived to cater for ever more demanding customers whose interest in the waterways was differently motivated ( not sure if I`ve got the right word there ) - well, things were rather more open and honest and, by and large, customers were happier and their money was safer. The modern "outside" world has been brought onto the canal world and is swamping it completely. I know things change , that it is inevitable and right that they should but it can be a bit like the relationship between red and grey squirrels ( if considerably less cute in my case ) and some of us can`t help but think back to what we perceive as "the good old days" and regret their passing.

So when WJM brings his excellent , up to the minute highly efficient and admirable business methods to the canal the majority of modern canal users will perhaps be better off and more secure in their floating cottages - and a good thing too. But when the last trace of the bumbling , inefficient and archaic world I used to live in goes - well I guess I`ll go with it.

Cheers

Phil

 

Phil

 

Don't understand what you mean about my post about the hull number, etc. Perhaps you could elaborate (PM if you want).

 

My first involvement with the canals was 22 years ago when I worked for BWB. That got us started hiring boats. About 8 years ago we got a share in a shared ownerships scheme and in 2003 we embarked on having our own boat built - we used a boat fitter who bought in a shell. Our original plan was to buy secondhand but that didn't work out for reasons I've posted in another thread. All our thought processes and how we went about things is covered in detail on our website.

 

Cheers

Yo

I didn`t intend any reference to hull numbers etc. Sorry about that - it just seemed like a convenient point to join in the conversation.

Cheers

Phil

 

3 years.

 

I run down old ladies, and blatt round on my boaty equivalent of a 1986 Vauxhall Nova. I'm just in the process of Fitting a new stereo, underneath lights, and a playstation.

Man you really need a Citroen these days.......

Cheers

Phil

[carlt]

I just don`t remember it happening as often thirty or so years ago

Cheers

Phil

Springer welding two 3mm plates together and calling it 6mil?

[Phil Speight]

Springer welding two 3mm plates together and calling it 6mil?

Absolutely true. But did any one of knowledge have any illusions about Springer? I always felt that that they were fairly horrendous boats myself - but at the same time they made no bones about being cheap and people seemed happy to accept them as they were.Lots of boaters got on the water thanks to Springer for all the boat`s failings.Very few modern customers would accept something so basic.These days you can pay for expensive and still get cheap - but I don`t for one moment mean to suggest that we were all angels years ago - just that the problems seem to be getting worse and more regular.

Perhaps I made a hash of my post. I remember though, for instance , when the boss of a hire fleet started out more often than not primarily as a boat enthusiast , canal shops and what passed for marinas ditto . Boat builders often started out with a specific knowledge of canal boats while now general fabricators are seeing an opportunity and leaping in with no real understanding of what makes a good boat . While there are still many exceptions all the trades are affected as are all the services , except for the few enthusiasts with hotel , camping , coal boats and similar. I even wonder about some of those occasionally! The canal has been seen for years as a boom market fit to be exploited and business men have taken over from enthusiast professionals wherever you look. It has become just another opportunity. It`s a fundamental change that has come with the leisure boom and the increasing number of people seeking either a quieter place to live , a cheaper place to live ( which , once you`ve got your "house", it emphatically isn`t unless you let the rest of us pay for you ) or a "different" lifestyle. Even holiday makers expect a level of sophistication and convenience that is barely practical sometimes on a non-reconstituted 250 year old industrial transport system.It`s even getting trendy I suspect .All that`s fine - we just have to accept it - it was inevitable. Trouble is we also have to accept all the failings , the cheating and the bad practice that come along with the undoubted benefits. Just like life everywhere else in our society really- that`s something that will never change as long as we are human.

All this is just a feeling I have. I Know there were sharks lurking oon the canal when the boom started who quickly saw ways of making an easy killing but they were very much the exception. Anyway I absolutely reserve the right to be completely and utterly wrong !

cheers

Phil

Edited March 29, 2007 by Phil Speight

[carlt]

Absolutely true. But did any one of knowledge have any illusions about Springer?

Isn't it mainly the ones with little or no knowledge or experience of boats who end up in these sorts of messes nowadays?

A little research, asking questions and educating yourself will go a long way.

There are forum members who are planning their new build, who will have a much better chance of avoiding disaster because they've asked other members with experience.

 

Springer must have been 'duping' enough newbies. They're still one of the commonest boats on the cut, and that's not through build quality, it's because so many were built.

[Phil Speight]

Isn't it mainly the ones with little or no knowledge or experience of boats who end up in these sorts of messes nowadays?

A little research, asking questions and educating yourself will go a long way.

There are forum members who are planning their new build, who will have a much better chance of avoiding disaster because they've asked other members with experience.

 

Springer must have been 'duping' enough newbies. They're still one of the commonest boats on the cut, and that's not through build quality, it's because so many were built.

You may well be right about Springers - you are certainly right about new boaters without experience or knowledge being most vulnerable. I just wish they would extend their research (beyond this forum if needs be ) and learn about boats - not just about fridges and bow thrusters and spa baths and so on . I also wish we could all accept that if you want high standards they won`t come at bargain prices.

Enough - I`m off now , would you believe , to record an episode of "Pimp My Ride" on the premise that Frank Nurser would also have said yes to it . It`s probably the equivalent of a musician breaking wind through a gaspipe in Woolworth`s shop window - as we used to say so long ago..........

Cheers

Phil

Edited March 29, 2007 by Phil Speight

[carlt]

You may well be right about Springers - you are certainly right about new boaters without experience or knowledge being most vulnerable. I just wish they would extend their research (beyond this forum if needs be ) and learn about boats - not just about fridges and bow thrusters and spa baths and so on . I also wish we could all accept that if you want high standards they won`t come at bargain prices.

Enough - I`m off now , would you believe , to record an episode of "Pimp My Ride" on the premise that Frank Nurser would also have said yes to it . It`s probably the equivalent of a musician breaking wind through a gaspipe in Woolworth`s shop window - as we used to say so long ago..........

Cheers

Phil

Tell Tim Westwood to ring me if he wants a real pimping challenge.

[andy the hammer]

This looks like another boaters dream gone if it is true & I dont see why it couldn't be.boat link

Joe

 

Yet another disappointed customer

 

The website that started this discussion did not mention that the day they removed their boat another was removed at the same time for the same reasons.

 

For weeks now I have wanted to reply to some of the comments made on this forum but was not sure how to do it, but I have decided to give it a go, so I apologise for any mistakes now.

 

When we decided to have a boat built for ourselves and named the boat as a tribute to my parents who's hard work in their life time gave us this chance of a dream, we entrusted our dream with the boat fitter.

 

Boat fitters and builders seem to forget when they are dealing with customers we are entrusting them with our dreams.

 

After being told that work would be resumed on our boat on several occasions and organising one of our many visits to see the progress, only to receive the Email as reported on the website a week or two before we were due to visit, the trust went out the window.

 

With the trust now gone we decided to pull the boat out of the yard only to discover our boat was in a similar condition to that shown on the website, but we do have an engine and some items have been supplied to us that had been paid for in the stage payments (paid as and when requested) but were not available the day we removed the boat.

 

We have since discovered that that the annexeIIIa was never issued so we would have had difficulties selling the boat if it was completed anyway.

 

The boat is now stripped back to its foam insulation due to the mildew on the panels and other problems, now to the extra work involved, instead of being in the position to fund the fit out completely we are trying to find extra funds to complete the boat.