wide beam 'Daedalus'

[Gary Peacock]

The shell is rusting out nicely, but it will take another 2 months for all the millscale to fall off. So no rust converter (primer) or painting just yet. I met several owners who complained of their paintwork falling off after a couple of years, as a result of primer applied directly to nice smooth shiny grey millscale. I'm sure most owners don't understand until it's too late.

 

Chris

 

It's a shame more owners and fitters don't realise this, too many nice paint jobs fall foul of the millscale problem a few years down the road.

Millscale really does need to be considered and dealt with one way or another.

[ChrisPy]

back in blighty for another short one.

 

spent a successful week at the end of August dodging the alternating sun (too hot to crawl about on the roof without knee protection) and rain (coming in all the orifices (of the boat, not mine )

 

- picked up a Morso Squirrel with back boiler at MPSteelcraft in Trowbridge. Located it and modified the floor to provide a level base and fire surround (the natural rise of the floor is about 1 in 20 at the front of the cabin).

 

- set up the bow thruster that will be located just in front of the Squirrel. Worked out a design for the 'cofferdam' and left templates with the yard for them to fabricate a steel box and fit in place. There is no space for the thruster to be lifted out above the cofferdam and below the foredeck, so the box includes a hatch access plate.

 

- painted around the openings of the rear mushroom vents and portholes with rust converter and Prekote and refixed permanently with sealant. Problems with screws into the oak porthole surrounds were cured by using standard stainless steel woodscrews (not those ubiquitous plated self-tappers) set into generously drilled holes in the oak, with WD40 and some wax. An easy drive in, hopefully an equally easy drive out again if and when needed.

 

- removed the front vents and windows and covered with a tarpaulin. Will allow the hidden areas to rust out (millscale removal) before painting and refixing.

 

- made the sloping floor for the bathroom (wetroom) and installed the drain outlet. There will just be standing room in the shower. I am 6'-1". On a widebeam the curvature of the roof is significant causing loss of headroom at the sides. So a fixed overhead deluge fitting is out of the question. I picked up a nice adjustable shower unit including thermostatic mixer control for a low pressure sytem on special offer at B&Q for £70.

 

- made up the rear bathroom bulkheads including the recess for the toilet (Thetford C2 bench type with cassette) and the wardrobe on the rear side.

 

- completed the installation of the kitchen unit carcasses (Ikea), worktops and sink unit.

 

- installed oak doors to most of the kitchen units (I know - not necessary at this stage, but I like to see something looking a little bit finished, for my own encouragement )

 

- tiled the exposed parts of the bulkheads above the worktop. I wanted rich crimson coloured tiles and was surprised to find that only certain colours can be manufactured these days. Apparently there are health concerns with some of the pigments, particularly bright red. I settled for 'Tomato' which is a dark orangey-red and looks OK now it is in place. I will use the same for the surround to the Morso stove. Brightens up all that oak panelling.

 

- scratching my head about the installation of the Leisure Products Tasman hob and grill combination unit. I have to leave some air space around it. I think I'll ventilate that from the cupboard below so the front panel can be closed off. But I need a neat way to finish the upper gap in the worktop with a suitable grillage or vent arrangement. The instructions say a 20mm air gap is necessary at the sides and 40mm at the back, which seems logical for losing the heat generated in the grill compartment.

 

..................... and back to Turkey to earn a few more bucks.

Edited September 3, 2005 by chris polley

[Richard Bustens]

WOW Chris

 

You got a lot done in a week, any pics?

[ChrisPy]

WOW Chris

 

You got a lot done in a week, any pics?

29523[/snapback]

there's a couple in the gallery. very much 'work in progress'

[ChrisPy]

another intensive session, assisted by two noble brothers-in-law who got down and did the dirty stuff.

 

during my absence the 'cofferdam' around the bow thruster was fitted. there seems to be a problem with the thruster tail unit (Vetus 75kgf). Using the thick shaped plastic spacer that goes between the unit and the inside of the tube (correctly sized for the thruster) the prop jams against the far side of the tube. I haven't dogged the Allen screws up tight yet, but I don't believe the spacer will compress that much. I may have to modify the spacer (remove 3mm from the flat side).

 

water tank - managed to squeeze my large frame through the access hatch and sorted the connections out, and removed lots of free gifts left in the tank by Liverpool Boats. I now have a 22mm copper dip tube connected to a high level Polypipe tank connector giving me a 22mm compression fitting on the inside of the boat.

 

stove - set up the Squirrel and fixed in place using the feet provided by Lockgate. Made an oak hearth surround, cast a concrete slab 1" thick and pre-fitted the quarry tiles (cut with a diamond saw on my 225mm angle grinder like a knife through butter). Then I realised that the pattern would be better at 45degrees to the stove and square to the boat, so they will have to be done again next time. (see photo on the gallery).

 

external - there was a lot of muck left in corners and edges when Liverpool Boats failed to remove all the grey primer that was applied in error. Removed by belt sander and detail sander. Now left to rust out again.

 

kitchen - fitted some edging trims (44x19 oak from Robbins) and oak finishing panels. Scratched my head about the best way to install the hob/grill unit.

 

hot water - completed the connections to the calorifier from the stove and from the engine. Fitted the copper 28mm supply and return towards the stove, fixed and insulated using 22mm pipe lag with the gap filled with polyurethane. Fitted the copper 22mm supply and return towards the engine, fixed and insulated. Leak tested out the pipes before hiding them away behind the lining panels. No problem - all Yorkshire soldered fittings.

 

electrics - fixed the very heavy double 120sq.mm cables for the bow thruster under the gunwale and secured with 15mm copper pipe clips. Fixed the 16mm x 16mm plastic conduit (clip cover type) for the 230V cables, screwed in place under each gunwale. (I had fitted a 70x18 batten to the back of the upper cabin lining to stiffen the lining and to provide a fixing for the cable). Fixed the position of the 230V sockets (lots of them, to avoid trailing leads in the future when using a power tool, vaccuum, etc.) and pulled in the cables leaving tails at each socket location.

 

bathroom - installed the Thetford C2 bench type cassette toilet, with the cassette access hatch through the bulkhead. Temporarily fitted the wasbasin. Fitted the door frame in 44mm x 19mm oak. Pre-painted the 6ft x 2ft louvre door (the spray paint cost 50% more than the door! You can't brush paint those louvres neatly). Completed the high level oak ply lining. Installed the cushionfloor-type lino to the floor and 2 lower walls with curved formers in the lower corners to give a nice sweep at the edges. (see photo on the gallery). It was easier than I thought to get a perfect fit with no gaps at the joints. The wetroom is looking good.

 

structure - fitted half the bedroom dividing bulkhead to establish the layout of the rear half of the boat.

 

lining - fitted the upper lining to the front bulkhead, including the oak porthole liners. Unfortunately these were machined for the thickness of the cabin sides (35mm battens) but the front battens are 50mm. Any ideas how to make up the gap neatly? I s'pose Richard could machine me some new ones at his bargain price offer but I don't want to take advantage.

 

engine 'ole - because I will be out of the country when the winter sets in I checked the engine was ready for the frost. Luckily the cooling system was not filled with water. Checked again for the hull number that "should be made in weld metal under the engine". There is none, so that's another job to do. Found the resin-surfaced deck boards have swollen slightly and were jammed tight - planed the edges down a bit. Pumped out 3" of water with a Draper drill attachment pump. The water gets in because I have the boat set dead level fore and aft, so there is no run-off over the back. It sits in the channels and drips.

 

saw several boats come and go.

A similar wide beam (fairly new, I believe) was in to have the paint stripped off (millscale problem, so I was told) and repainted. I'm glad I'm letting mine rust out before it sees a lick of paint.

An unusual dutch barge arrived from Holland on a truck, cost 3,500 Euros using a continental transporter which seemed quite good value, worth considering if you're going to cruise the French canals.

 

........... and back to Turkey in the deep snow (in the central highlands) to get BP's new pipeline up and running. It's the Bayram (Eid) holiday and there's plenty of time to catch up on my e-mails. My hands are clumsy on the keyboard afer using all those tools for 2 weeks.

Edited November 3, 2005 by chris polley

[DHutch]

Lots of work i see!

 

- Any photos?

 

 

Daniel

[ChrisPy]

Lots of work i see!

 

- Any photos?

Daniel

in the gallery, mister dan

[ChrisPy]

I've been mulling over boat names and have decided that maybe Daedalus is a little too erudite for my liking. Anyway, how do you pronounce it and what do you say to those endless enquirees?

 

So SLITHY TOVE is my new favourite. Before anyone asks (you should know if you read childrens' books as a child) it is an utter nonsense name from the Jabberwocky by Lewis Carroll, but has been interpreted as a slimy slithery badger-like creature.

 

The name appears not to be in the list of 40,000 registered names, so at least it may be unique.

 

....................... and I got there first, so don't you dare

Edited November 17, 2005 by chris polley

[John Orentas]

Good boat name, 'Sightly Unique'

 

I Think 'Daedalus' is quite good, or even 'Gimbelling in the wabe'

[Moley]

Not sure Chris, I like intelligent names and there's something about Daedalus. And the Greek signwriting would certainly be unique.

 

Slithy Tove might reference literature, but seems to have an unpleasant ring about it.

It always sounds like an insult to me, or maybe an anagram.

 

Incidentally, I got 'toys liveth' or 'vile shy tot', 'levity host', 'vote shitly' or 'Ivy shot Tel'

 

Mole.

[DHutch]

Not sure Chris, I like intelligent names and there's something about Daedalus. And the Greek signwriting would certainly be unique.

- Slithy Tove might reference literature, but seems to have an unpleasant ring about it.

It always sounds like an insult to me, or maybe an anagram.

I personaly think Daedalus is the better name.

[bottle]

I personaly think Daedalus is the better name.

 

I'm with Daniel on this one

[ChrisPy]

I think Slithy Tove is a horrible name too. ....... but unfortunately I have a controversial streak in my character ............. just in case you hadn't noticed

[DHutch]

I think Slithy Tove is a horrible name too...

[Carrie]

Why not 'Brillig' ? (or does that have one 'l')

Then you will have a Jaberwocky version of my 'Soleil'

[ChrisPy]

managed a few days work when the wife let me off the leash during my Xmas break.

 

the bow thruster problem seems to be that the tube fitted by the builder is not truly circular where the thruster fits. An interesting point is that pipes manufactured to many codes are only required to be truly circular at the ends where they will be joined by butt welds. Elsewhere there is a large tolerance for the allowable out-of-roundness. The only solution was to trim the radius of the propellor blades by 3mm. That just simulates a few years wear. The thruster is now neatly installed, with just sufficient access behind the Morso stove to remove it for maintenance.

 

there is a nice space above the thruster tube that I will designate the 'paint locker'. Access by removing the steps leading up to the foredeck. This area was boxed-out, I will fill the void around the tube with insulation.

 

refixed the Morso stove permanently and completed the quarry tiles. completed the convoluted central heating and calorifier piping mainly in 28mm copper with Yorkshire fittings. Included full bore gate valves in both legs to enable balancing between the heating (right side) and the calorifier (left side). Also included a 15mm injection tube fitted into a 28mm tee off the stove to allow convection circulation to be initiated from cold. Fingers crossed.

 

fitted the stove surround using Aquapanel board. It is a glass fibre reinforced concrete board about 15mm thick that can be cut like plasterboard and can be trimmed nicely with an angle grinder.

 

kitchen - fitted the hob/grill unit into a cut-out in the worktop. The cut-out is lined with the tee section strips sold for use as worktop joints. There will also be a large cut-out behind the hob for ventilation and access to the gas supply, to be covered with brass expanded metal mesh.

 

installed 10mm copper tube for the gas supply from the forward gas locker, through the cabin bulkhead and back to the galley.

 

lining - completion of the 28mm piping and insulation (I used 22mm foam sleeves, usung aerosol polyfoam to close the gap) allowed me to fit the lower lining to the front cabin (saloon).

 

the boat is now known in the yard as 'the rustbox' which is a clear sign that it should be well ready for rust treatment and painting in the spring. Some patches of millscale remain - I am really surprised how long it took for the millscale to flake off.

 

saw a new widebeam (from a Manchester yard??) being launched. It looked finished, but it floated about 6" high at the stern. That'll need a lot of ballast, maybe 4 tonnes. When I commented the man with the clipboard looked most embarrassed. Presumably the yard rep doing a hand-over to the customer. During the test sail there was a lot of cavitation and much engine revs but little forward movement. Oh dear.

 

........... and back to Turkey again. A big freeze-up, temperatures down to minus 20C. Land Rover 2.5TDi diesels don't start, even with a fuel heater fitted. Diesel quality is supposed to be good for minus 20C but who do you believe? Much of the diesel in this part of the world is reputed to be 'watered down' by the suppliers, whatever that means. Anyway, we have to leave the engines running all night.

Edited January 2, 2006 by chris polley

[Bones]

wow! Thats a serious amount of work! Well done! What are you going to do with the Aquapanel board - are you going to tile it or leave it as it is?

[Richard Bustens]

Well done Chris, iv'e done nothing, all my tools seem to be packing in at the minuite, router bearings packed in before xmas, got that sorted then the plainer / thicknesser packed in xmas eve and no spair bits till next week. so i have a pile of timber cut to approx sizes waiting to be finished off.

[ChrisPy]

Well done Chris, iv'e done nothing, all my tools seem to be packing in at the minuite, router bearings packed in before xmas, got that sorted then the plainer / thicknesser packed in xmas eve and no spair bits till next week. so i have a pile of timber cut to approx sizes waiting to be finished off.

I've got fed up with expensive tools packing up, so I tend to buy the bargains and throw them out when they break. For example, I had a planer from Makro for £8. After sterling service the depth of cut adjuster knob broke off when I dropped it. I bought a replacement from Makro for £11.

 

Just to put the prices into perspective, a single Yorkshire pipe fitting 28x28x28 tee cost £8.

 

But the quality of my joinery doesn't match yours, of course

[Richard Bustens]

Most of my stuff is 8-10 years old and used most weeks, so it is not bad, the planer has only broken the spring that tentions the chain for the drive cogs so it will not pull the timber through the cutters, cost of part £1.99 min order value £15 + postage so i have ordered 6 so i can fit one now and have lost the others by the time i need another one.

[alan_fincher]

Chris,

 

Some of you guys put us to shame ! Is there no stopping you - you always seem to have a good list to add.

 

Mind you, I'm just trying to remodel a small part of ours, and that involves dismantling what's there already, trying to minimise the damage, but with no prior knowledge of how it's all attached, or quite where things are fastened through in a hidden way.

 

I can start to see that having a clean slate, where all the work is your own, might make for quicker progress than trying to unpick the unknown.

 

Anyway, I'm interested in your stove, which seems to be at the front, and which you are plumbing in wide bore pipe. Is the hope that it's going to circulate on convection alone, or will it be pumped ?

 

If the former, do you expect the bow to sit significantly higher than the stern ? The reason I ask is that our boat sits very high at the front, where the stove is. I fear if I try and add any radiators based on gravity, that it ain't gong to work, because where I need the heat is lower than where I'm making it ......

 

Oh, and on cheap power tools, I paid less than £30 for a basic router from Screwfix. I'm not trying anything clever, but it does all I require right now, and I'm glad I didn't pay more.

Edited January 2, 2006 by alan_fincher

[ChrisPy]

 

Anyway, I'm interested in your stove, which seems to be at the front, and which you are plumbing in wide bore pipe. Is the hope that it's going to circulate on convection alone, or will it be pumped ?

 

If the former, do you expect the bow to sit significantly higher than the stern ? The reason I ask is that our boat sits very high at the front, where the stove is. I fear if I try and add any radiators based on gravity, that it ain't gong to work, because where I need the heat is lower than where I'm making it ......

 

 

The initial plan was to rely on convection alone.

 

I hope the boat will trim like the Liverpool widebeams I have seen at New Boat in Droitwich, i.e. almost level. I can get an average 1 in 25 rise from the stove to the calorifier inlet and to the end of the radiator loop, relative to the floor of the boat. Both of these have been set just below gunwale level, i.e. as high as possible. That may translate to 1 in 30 when the boat is in the water.

 

The problem I see is that I cannot get a rise immediately from the stove, particularly for the leg that runs across the front bulkhead just under the level of the threshhold of the door opening. So convection will probably not start unaided.

 

As described above in this thread, I have taken the precaution of installing an injection fitting, which is a way of assisting the flow by using a pump which is not in the mainline flow. If I get the flow started by using pump assistance I am hopeful that the convection effect as the hot water drops down through the cooling parts of the system (the vertical calorifier, and the finrads that will be set on a downslope) will be self-sustaining. The finrads will be set behind some perforated panelling so they will not look too ugly. (I needn't have bought the covered versions after all).

 

The key to getting the convection to work is really effective insulation of all the rising parts of the system, so the cooling part of the system coincides with the drop.

 

The injection fitting works like this:

- Take a 28mm Yorkshire tee and use at a change in direction of the main line.

- Insert a 28 x 15 Yorkshire reducer into the unused inline leg of the tee.

- In the reducer, file out the end stop for the 15mm pipe .

- Insert a 15mm pipe into the reducer so the end projects well into the tee.

- Fit the tee into the stove output line so the injector is pointing in the direction of flow.

- Connect the delivery of a suitable pump (e.g. water supply pump?) to the 15mm pipe

- Connect the suction side of the pump to a 15mm offtake from the main line near the stove inlet.

- When starting up, use the pump.

- Once the radiators are hot, stop the pump and check if the radiators remain hot.

- The pump could be used continuously if necessary.

 

My system will be charged by a header tank cistern (standard Screwfix unit) providing about 1m head, fitted near the calorifier. This will incorporate a relief vent piped overboard, and is 8metres from the stove. I am considering another relief vent pipe discharging at cabin top height fitted on the stove outlet, so that if the worst happens and the water boils I will not get vapour lock in the system.

 

................. well, here's hoping.

[alan_fincher]

The injection fitting works like this:

- Take a 28mm Yorkshire tee and use at a change in direction of the main line.

- Insert a 28 x 15 Yorkshire reducer into the unused inline leg of the tee.

- In the reducer, file out the end stop for the 15mm pipe .

- Insert a 15mm pipe into the reducer so the end projects well into the tee.

- Fit the tee into the stove output line so the injector is pointing in the direction of flow.

- Connect the delivery of a suitable pump (e.g. water supply pump?) to the 15mm pipe

- Connect the suction side of the pump to a 15mm offtake from the main line near the stove inlet.

- When starting up, use the pump.

- Once the radiators are hot, stop the pump and check if the radiators remain hot.

- The pump could be used continuously if necessary.

 

Thanks for explaining in detail, Chris......

 

I follow exactly what you will be attempting to do, and it certainly makes sense.

 

Of course, with all such things, I guess its a case of waiting to see if practical experience matches the theory.

 

Good luck with it, anyway.....

[DHutch]

Yeah, sounds fair enough.

- Our system works 100% on convection, with two rads going forwards, and one rad and the cal towards the stern.

 

When i say works, the front half works.

- The calorefyer is a right bugger to bleed, and although it has worked in the past, since the last time the system was drained (about 10years ago) it has just remained on the 'to do' list.

- The plan now is to fit a small/cheap pump simular to like chris descibed, to push all the air etc out of the coils, and 'jump start' the thermosyphon. Or somthing like that....

 

 

Daniel

[ChrisPy]

I was back in Blighty for 10 days and had many family obligations, but still managed some value time in the boatyard.

 

Incredibly on the first day (17 February) it was bright and sunny and I noticed my neighbour putting a top coat on a harbour launch. (interesting boat, wartime German and carries a bell from the Graf Spee - it may originally have been a liberty boat carried on the pocket battleship). I took a long look at my rusty shell and went to work with the rust converter (Vactan). Took just 30minutes to apply to the cabin roof with a wide roller, just like applying emulsion to the bedroom walls. The next day I did the cabin and hull sides. Mostly it looked good, but I realised it is all too easy to put it on too thinly, then you don't get 100% black conversion. More like dark grey with small brown marks. I was getting twice the recommended coverage. Anyway, the boat is now 90% shiny black monster instead of a rust bucket and all my neighbours are smiling again. The next time I am home I will use the rotary sander and apply another coat on the thin parts if they show any signs of 'breaking out'. It will act as a holding primer for at least a year, no problem.

 

I completed the Aquapanel surround to the Morso, and tiled it in black, to be grouted with graphite colour. One of the panels removes to give access to the bow thruster situated immeditely in front of the stove.

 

On a trip north I popped into Midland Chandlers in Penkridge and bought the Morso flue and chimney collar bits. I enquired about a central heating circulation pump - more than £100 for a tiny pump! Anyone know of a good source at a sensible price, or should I expect to pay that much? My pump should only be intermittent duty as I hope to establish self-perpetuating convection once the system warms up.

 

The Morso sits on the right hand side of the forward entrance. I fitted a corner unit on the left hand side that will hold the entertainment hardware - based on IKEA kitchen wall units. To be finished with solid oak doors and a solid oak worktop. In between I made the carcass for the forward steps from 19mm ply. The steps remove to give access to the under-deck space. I filled around the thruster tube with aerosol polyurethane filler and rockwool insulation, and sealed it all off with a plywood shelf and facing piece. Now I have an enormous hidden forward locker that is ideal for storing bulk items, and I no longer have to swing down like a gibbon from the forward cockpit into the boat.

 

That was all I could fit in during my short sojourn, and I'm now I'm back on station planning my next trip home.