Red diesel. What's left out?

[Supermalc]

Does anyone know the difference(if any) between the components of red marine diesel we currently put in our boats and the white stuff we put in our diesel cars? I have it in my mind that the red stuff is minus many of the additives and contains a higher sulphur content. Does this mean that the expensive white stuff ( I've seen it blue and green in France, Spain and Portugal) is better for our engines? Vehicle diesel fuel quality used to vary widely across Europe, is there a Europe wide standard now -- at least for pleasure boats using Diesel A?

 

This was asked on another forum.

 

And a chap who owns an oil refinery replied.

 

Standard Red Diesel is 0.2% Sulphur base stock. It has a red dye and yellow marker added to aid C&E to sample and identify.

0.2% Sulphur diesel is good in that yes it does lubricate pumps and various parts it contacts ... the Heineken of Diesel Engines !

 

White or ULS Diesel ..... (Ultra Low Sulphur) is currently rated at less than 50ppm sulphur ... and soon to reduce further to less than 35ppm. Now before yer all get knickers in a twist ... many ULSD litres sold across forecourts are already near enough 35ppm. To pass EN590 specification - ULSD normally has various additives mixed in during transportation .... Lubricity additive to make up for loss of lubrication quality, and in winter months CFPP additive to prevent filters being blocked etc. Sometimes Cetane improvers and Anti-Static additives are added to enhance.

 

People worry too much about the change from Red to ULSD ... unless you have a real old ancient beast of an engine ... ignore and enjoy the thought that you are now one of the Green guys burning cleaner fuel.

 

If you really are worried ... there are various snake oils available in Car Acc. shops - but a cheap alternative that will make Greenpeace cringe - is to throw a spoonful of 20-50 in !!

 

Boat engines are generally not high revving super sensitive to this matter.

 

Oh - and Gas Oil is the Generic name for all Diesel fuel of this range.

[Edders]

Does anyone know the difference(if any) between the components of red marine diesel we currently put in our boats and the white stuff we put in our diesel cars? I have it in my mind that the red stuff is minus many of the additives and contains a higher sulphur content. Does this mean that the expensive white stuff ( I've seen it blue and green in France, Spain and Portugal) is better for our engines? Vehicle diesel fuel quality used to vary widely across Europe, is there a Europe wide standard now -- at least for pleasure boats using Diesel A?

 

This was asked on another forum.

 

And a chap who owns an oil refinery replied.

 

Standard Red Diesel is 0.2% Sulphur base stock. It has a red dye and yellow marker added to aid C&E to sample and identify.

0.2% Sulphur diesel is good in that yes it does lubricate pumps and various parts it contacts ... the Heineken of Diesel Engines !

 

White or ULS Diesel ..... (Ultra Low Sulphur) is currently rated at less than 50ppm sulphur ... and soon to reduce further to less than 35ppm. Now before yer all get knickers in a twist ... many ULSD litres sold across forecourts are already near enough 35ppm. To pass EN590 specification - ULSD normally has various additives mixed in during transportation .... Lubricity additive to make up for loss of lubrication quality, and in winter months CFPP additive to prevent filters being blocked etc. Sometimes Cetane improvers and Anti-Static additives are added to enhance.

 

People worry too much about the change from Red to ULSD ... unless you have a real old ancient beast of an engine ... ignore and enjoy the thought that you are now one of the Green guys burning cleaner fuel.

 

If you really are worried ... there are various snake oils available in Car Acc. shops - but a cheap alternative that will make Greenpeace cringe - is to throw a spoonful of 20-50 in !!

 

Boat engines are generally not high revving super sensitive to this matter.

 

Oh - and Gas Oil is the Generic name for all Diesel fuel of this range.

 

 

Speaking of "real old ancient beast of an engine", the following is from the operation manual for Gardner LW type engines(edited)

 

"Of recent years it has become established that the sulphur content of fuel oil has a very important effect on the internal cleanliness and wear rate of an engine - in particular the question of lacquer formation on cylinders and piston rings etc. The use of an approved first class detergent oil is highly desirable. Oils to the approved specifications possess a remarkable ability to combat the evils of sulphur in the fuel both from a wear (corrosion) and cleanliness point of view (lacquer).

 

So were Gardner correct with regard to Sulphur? Has anyone had any problems with Gardner engines in narrowboats?

 

Edders

[Supermalc]

This question was asked a little while ago on here, so having found the answer I've posted it.

 

Sometime in the future we are going to have to run on ULSD from the roadside garage.

 

The important point is if you are concerned by rumours/reports of damage to the engine injection system due to the lower sulpher content, just add a tablespoon of engine oil per gallon.

 

I'm actually surprised there has been hardly any replies, given the interest a short while ago.

 

P.S. Why have you replied as a quote, when there is only one post to answer. Just curious that's all.

[Edders]

Sorry , didn't think it mattered that much quoting your posting. Someone could have posted another comment before our posting was displayed.

 

Edders

[Supermalc]

Doesn't matter in the slightest. Don't know why but it's only done much on this forum (of the few I read) and I find it irritating to have to scroll down over what I've just read.

 

Just a personal opinion that's all. It's the one thing I'd change on here, otherwise it's one of the best forums around.

[Hairy-Neil]

Doesn't matter in the slightest. Don't know why but it's only done much on this forum (of the few I read) and I find it irritating to have to scroll down over what I've just read.

 

Just a personal opinion that's all. It's the one thing I'd change on here, otherwise it's one of the best forums around.

 

It seems the "quote" is the default situation with this forum.......and the -quote button doesn't work either. One has to delete the quote if they don't want to include it.

[alan_fincher]

It seems the "quote" is the default situation with this forum.......and the -quote button doesn't work either. One has to delete the quote if they don't want to include it.

If you know you don't want to quote any of the last post, then rather than hitting the "reply" botton on that post, (ans then having to delete the quote), simply use the "add reply" button that appears just below the last post.

 

Well it works for me anyway, (although I've not done it here obviously!).

 

Another tip, for anybody who uses the Google search toolbar as an add on to IE. I'm not sure what version it appeared in, but mine now contains a "spell check" button, (if I can only remember to use it, before I submit my posts!...) It still doesn't sort out my bad grammar, though!

 

Alan

[Kelvinman]

To get back to the main topic.....

Whilst there is little doubt that white diesel is better for engines because of the additives, in practice the low loadings on modern narrowboat engines means that they can run quite happily on red diesel. Vintage engines like mine (Kelvin K1) will run on almost anything you can squeeze through the injector - they are extremely forgiving! Like other members of the Vintage Marine Engine Club I have been running a vintage engine on red diesel for years with absolutely no problems. It remains to be seen how a vintage engine responds to an exclusive diet of ULSD.

 

However diesel powered boilers like the Eberspacher seem to prefer white diesel (although I have been running mine for 4 years on red diesel). I think the problem with the boilers is that they need to run hard if you use red diesel - they certainly don't like ticking over on low power for any length of time. If not run hard they simply soot up.

[Supermalc]

As Alan has said, just use the 'ADD REPLY' button at the bottom of the page.

 

Oh, and just a reminder not to miss the facts. The actual difference between them.

[honey ryder]

I am quite suprised to see no one has talked about the possible use of vegetable oil?

a diesel engine, most decent older ones at least will happily run on neet veg oil in the warmer months, and if you have a pre heater in the pipe line then you could use it all year round.

 

theres a huge discussion amongst 4x4 users, particularly on a toyota forum im a member of.

 

veg oil is carbon neutral, renewable resource and er, well, fairly cheap and readily available.

 

has anyone tried it? have i missed something?

[Supermalc]

have i missed something?

 

Sadly yes. Regardless if it is a car, 'Chelsey Tractor', bike or boat. If it is used on the road, and now for pleasure boating on the water, the duty should be paid.

 

Unless someone can advise me differently.

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

You still pay duty (although total cost per litre is still less than other options)

 

Long term effects on engine wear have still not been fully explored.

[honey ryder]

dual tank useage, use the oil when moored for energy not transport and this is duty exempt.

you only have to pay duty on transportation.

and if you register as a user of alternative fuels you pay your duty retrospectively and the jobs a good un.

 

it may well be cheaper in the future than white diesel and red diesel might not be readily available for use as heating/ energy source fuel in the future. I know people have been running their diesel engines on veg oil legitimately for a few years and no probs except having to change some seals on fuel pump.

 

it seems to me that the government doesnt actually want us to change over to enviromentally friendly fuels or alternative ways of fuelling our transport and energy needs. The loss of tax to them would be un workable.

 

if i found a way to run my generator or other engine on my own waste/effluent/food scraps... would the govt still want me to pay tax? tax on my own bodily waste, which ive already paid tax on in the first place when i bought the food?

if we invented an engine to run on water, will water then become a taxable fuel? does that mean if we drink water we are aiding our own transportation via our legs and must pay tax?

 

taxation on vegetable oil is akin to taxation on milk, butter and bread. it is a natural plant product, it needs very little work to produce it and nothing we cant do at home, unlike sucking gallons of natural oil from under the surface of the planet and then processing it in chemical process to make it useable.

[Supermalc]

As things stand at the minute, the cheapest way to run a diesel, is use 28sec heating oil, with half a cup of engine oil per gallon.

 

Heating oil is subsidised, hence cheaper than low tax Gas Oil.

 

Yes you can run cars and boats on veg oil, as you can on methane (a farmer had his car adapted years ago, and ran off his manure heap) Years ago, cars were started on petrol, then run on paraffin for long journeys.

 

If everyone fitted LPG conversions, then the tax would be increased to equal, or exceed the lost revenue.

 

My point being, unless you pay the tax, it is illegal (I think it 'wrong' the government can charge such excessive tax) but that's another story altogether.

 

But you're STILL missing the point of the post.

 

Someone ask a while ago if there was any difference between Red Diesel (Gas Oil) and White diesel you buy from the garage (or Tesco)

 

Here is the answer.

[GRPCruiserman]

This question was asked a little while ago on here, so having found the answer I've posted it.

 

Sometime in the future we are going to have to run on ULSD from the roadside garage.

 

The important point is if you are concerned by rumours/reports of damage to the engine injection system due to the lower sulpher content, just add a tablespoon of engine oil per gallon.

 

I'm actually surprised there has been hardly any replies, given the interest a short while ago.

 

P.S. Why have you replied as a quote, when there is only one post to answer. Just curious that's all.

 

Smokage!! Wont that make it look like the Reliant Van from Only Fools and Horses, ie smoke being churned out!! And you narrow guys complain about my two strokes !!!!!

 

As things stand at the minute, the cheapest way to run a diesel, is use 28sec heating oil, with half a cup of engine oil per gallon.

 

Heating oil is subsidised, hence cheaper than low tax Gas Oil.

 

Yes you can run cars and boats on veg oil, as you can on methane (a farmer had his car adapted years ago, and ran off his manure heap) Years ago, cars were started on petrol, then run on paraffin for long journeys.

 

If everyone fitted LPG conversions, then the tax would be increased to equal, or exceed the lost revenue.

 

My point being, unless you pay the tax, it is illegal (I think it 'wrong' the government can charge such excessive tax) but that's another story altogether.

 

But you're STILL missing the point of the post.

 

Someone ask a while ago if there was any difference between Red Diesel (Gas Oil) and White diesel you buy from the garage (or Tesco)

 

Here is the answer.

 

Regards the LPG, this is widely done on coastal boats, and I seem to remember on Windermere, who had converted the Warden boat from Petrol inboard to Diesel in the 1980s, but has now put the original petrol engine back in and converted it to run on LPG. That boat runs 12 hours a day every day, so the savings must be going to be big.

[Supermalc]

Regards the LPG, this is widely done on coastal boats, and I seem to remember on Windermere, who had converted the Warden boat from Petrol inboard to Diesel in the 1980s, but has now put the original petrol engine back in and converted it to run on LPG. That boat runs 12 hours a day every day, so the savings must be going to be big.

 

But this is

 

The post is answer to the question of what is the difference between White and Red diesel.

This question has been asked at least once.

[honey ryder]

But this is

 

The post is answer to the question of what is the difference between White and Red diesel.

This question has been asked at least once.

 

i think the question was answered at the top of the thread with the sulphur content etc.

 

I think the answer was the fact that red diesel has more "stuff" in it , white is more refined.

 

if you run a regular diesel engine, you neednt worry about the differences between the two ( apart from the price that is)

the point of having a diesel engine is that you dont have to worry, the engines were designed from the start to run on anything, that is the whole idea of a diesel engine. If you refer to the history of how the engine came to being, it was invented as an alternative to the petrol engine because the diesel is capable of running on more than just diesel. Indeed... it should be called a compression engine.

[Supermalc]

i think the question was answered at the top of the thread with the sulphur content etc.

 

I think the answer was the fact that red diesel has more "stuff" in it , white is more refined.

 

if you run a regular diesel engine, you neednt worry about the differences between the two ( apart from the price that is)

 

Here we are http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...=injection+pump

 

This is the topic where we had the discussion a few weeks ago. In particular post No 4 and No 15.

[GRPCruiserman]

But this is

 

The post is answer to the question of what is the difference between White and Red diesel.

This question has been asked at least once.

 

Apologies, my wrists are considered slapped, I would have thought that modern car engines would require a high quality fuel, whereas your average BMC will run on anything, won't it? I know at least one black cab driver who uses Bio-Diesel. I think if I'd spent a few thousand on a modern diesel engine in my boat, I'd want to use high quality fuel. I tend to use Shell Optimax, or V-power, or whatever it's call now in the car.

[Supermalc]

Apologies,

 

None necessary m8. I only wanted to keep the post on topic, as I've spent quite some time searching another forum for the answer.

 

So we have learnt (me included). Other than adding to MPs obscene pension fund, IF YOU HAVE AN OLDER DIESEL AND ARE AT ALL CONCERNED, ADD A DESERTSPOON OF ENGINE OIL PER GALLON WHEN USING WHITE.

[Guest]

Reported

[Athy]

That must be  record: 15 years and 3 weeks since the previous post on the thread. Now removed.

[Alan de Enfield]

Reported